Originally posted by V_Translanka
Okay, over at Chrono Shock, someone just told me that they don't believe that, and in fact think that the idea is complete BS, Belthasar planned out the events of CC...
Wow. I never thought you'd be so quick to the gun to jump to conclusions and seek help before even trying to understand what I wrote. But hey, let's try again now, slower this time: "I no say he no do it - I say it should have been impossible for him to do it."
And as for the character development bit, I'd rather ask both you and Lord J esque to discuss this with me at Chrono Shock, so to not mix up all the - well, subjects in just this thread. Lord J esque, feel free to repost your initial post in this thread over at the CS forum by copy/pasting it, if you will of course.
Originally posted by Rabid Joe
It's really pretty much impossible to have planned everything out in this way, manipulating all those god-like entities (The Planet, Fate, Time Devourer, The Dragon Gods). It requires a hefty amount of suspension of disbelief, and really, I think it was just a dumb plot twist.
Which was my precise, overlooked point at CS.
Originally posted by Sentenal
Hes a nut case. Belthasar didn't plan out the exact events, he made an outline that would eventually reach his goal. That is explicit.
Right. So, moving on to actual facts, let's dig in:
In CC, we eventually learn and are supposed to believe that all of the events that take place throughout CC, as well as another
10,000 years of human history, were predicted and planned out by ONE man – Belthasar.
So in essence, this would imply that he’s so amazingly smart and elite, that he could predict the future actions of not one, not two, but
three different deities —Lavos, Earth and the Time Devourer (and Schala, if you want to count her as a deity)— and plan out ten millenia worth of history to his convenience, only so that one insignificant child could get his hands on the Chrono Cross – which, by the way, didn’t even exist to begin with, so we’re also expected to digest that he even planned out its very
creation (as in, something that had no chances of existing, just popped up in his head one day and
voila!, ze CC waz made).
It’s one thing to be a genius; it’s a whole different thing to be near
omniscient. A bevy of the things he “planned out” were simply impossible. Take, for instance, the fact that he had absolutely
no authority in Home World, where
at least six years of major events took place - therefore figuring out the 'patterns' there and then merging them to his plans simply
isn’t possible. Yet according to the “Time Crash”, he supposedly predicted things that were completely out of his very timeline, beyond all chances of his learning about them for them to even be a part of his "grand plan".
Pfft, what a load of (yes, I repeat)
BS.
Originally posted by ZeaLitY
Those are the big points; easy enough to plan that when you have the greatest supercomputer ever created at your disposal.
Nay, you're wrong. He
didn't have the "greatest supercomputer" at his disposal. It's made explicitly clear that he only laid the foundations for the time research facility known as Chronopolis with his own Time Research Laboratory. Yet he NEVER got to use his prized super-computer, FATE, because he disappeared sometime around 2,300 A.D., whereas FATE wasn't completed --through the reparation, alteration and reprogramming of the old Mother Brain-- until
2,400 A.D.
Originally posted by Sentenal
What Zeality said. I personally think he took a gamble with a few events. But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.
Dude, seriously, you've missed the point so many times already that it's getting annoying. I never said that he "didn't", but rather that the idea that we as gamers are supposed to buy into the BS of his planification of everything is absolutely preposteruous, because of everything that said plans represent or imply.
Originally posted by Chrono '99
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.
If memory serves me right, it was explained in the very game that the Neo-Epoch could only be used
once - thus the 'to and fro' travels are a no-no.
Originally posted by Rabid Joe
Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.
As I think also, hence my arguments.
Originally posted by Zenning
Being warped to the future, Belthasar had the opportunity to study all of the history that had gone on before, and thus, plan to rewrite history. The man had a lot of time, and a lot of intellect. All three factors coupled together, is what made it possible.
Yet even taking only that much into consideration, it's still only
one timeline. What about the rest that are crucial to his plans?
Originally posted by V_Translanka
And that I still haven't been back for a rebuttle or anything...so...yeah, I was basing it on the post where DS says that the theory is BS, not that post where DS basically kind of tries to weasle out of it by saying that Belthasar only 'supposedly' planned it out...
I didn't try to weasle out of anything. Don't try to save face of your mistakes - it's very puerile of you to do so, especially behind my back as if believing that I wouldn't follow the link to this site that I believe
you gave me.
And as proof that I wasn't "weasling out of it", I can
easily offer links to other sites in which
I've argued the exact same point with different people, who are way more responsible and mature than you've proven yourself to be. Hell, I
dare you to ask for the links - or would you rather disappear from me again?
Now to respond to the three following all at once...
Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon
Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.
So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...
Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.
Originally posted by GreyLansman
It is remotely possible that Belthasar could use the FATE supercomputer to predict 10,000 years of human history with 100% accuracy. FATE also has some rudimentary understanding of the Frozen Flame and succeeded in conquering the Dragon God supercomputer. But I do not believe that FATE is able to comprehend, let alone manipulate, the transcendent, multidimensional intelligences of Lavos, the Time Devourer, or the Planet.
It is possible that Belthasar used the Neo-Epoch to tweak history, but he only mentions time traveling to 1020 AD to check on the success of Project Kid.
Belthasar designed and built FATE. Could not Belthasar have hidden FATE's true mission from its conscious awareness? A human being is conscious, but it is not aware of the inner workings of its mind. The Prometheus Circuit is part of FATE, but it is hidden from FATE's consciousness.
FATE may also have been aware of Project Kid in its entirety, and knowingly fullfilled its mission as planned by Belthasar.
Nope, Belthasar didn't have FATE, because as I said somewhere above, it was completed about 100 years
after he disappeared in the future.
And FATE's main purpose in El Nido --which was its entire reach-- was just to
influence people's actions, but not entirely control them.
As for the Neo-Epoch, I reiterate that it is said that he could only use it once, for whatever reason.
Just because FATE acted like a renegade computer, doesn't actually mean it was one.
I agree; it eventually turns out that FATE was actually on the human's side, in its own way.
And with that, I defend myself, even though V-Translanka didn't have the
marbles to give me said chance, or face me directly. Oh and, cool place by the way.
