Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Queen Leene Kidnapped  (Read 10112 times)

SilentMartyr

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Chrono Trigger: Queen Leene Kidnapped
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2005, 05:20:04 pm »
Umm, none of the characters are always right. From that logic, I can argue that Magus made Lavos because that is what every character in Medina village said. It obviously isn't true, but since it is in the game it has to be...right?

Zenning

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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2005, 05:55:03 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Umm, none of the characters are always right. From that logic, I can argue that Magus made Lavos because that is what every character in Medina village said. It obviously isn't true, but since it is in the game it has to be...right?

WELL, not EVERYTHING the characters say in the game is false, either!

It is a mix, but what is said in the game should still be the basis for any discussion; you must then build upon your discussion/argument, weighing against it other events and dialogue in the game.

AuraTwilight

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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2005, 06:25:19 pm »
The Magus>Lavos thing was proved false ingame. No such thing happened with the Marle thing. If I remember, this whole paradox started because it contradicted our theories on Time Travel. Something about Time Traveler's Immunity.

Sentenal

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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2005, 07:05:27 pm »
Marle's disappearce is completely inconsistant.

Lucca explained it as Marle's ansestor getting killed, thus preventing her from being born:  The grandfather paradox.

This is inconsistant.  Lets take a simple example.  Take the Sealed Chests.  If you open a chest in 600ad, that chest is gone in 1000ad.  But lets say you didn't open it first in 600ad, you opened it in 1000ad.  Now, you can go back to 600ad, and get the chest.  But the same principle of how Marle was explained to have disappeared, the item you picked up at 1000ad should disappear.  But it doesn't.  Time Travelers Immunity.

Magus-X

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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2005, 09:12:32 pm »
Why would magus wanted to distract guardia when he is going to summon lavos. The guardia's soldiers would not step 100 feet from magus's castle, I think.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2005, 11:37:38 pm »
Quote from: Sir Frog
Quote from: Zenning
So, we all agree that The Entity was responsible for Marle's disappearance?


I sure as hell don't!

EDIT: I am off to work now, but I have an argument outlined in my mind. I'll post it later. I also have an alternative solution...sort of. Furthermore, my argument will show that several of the "axioms" aren't always true. (I'm pretty sure Sentenal will get a kick out of this.)


1) Yeah, not everyone agrees to it, it's just the most plausible and has the most evidence to back it up.

2) Sir Frog, not to bash you or anything...But I really hate your posts that start "I don't think so!" and end with "I'll post my arguement as to why later!".

Quote from: Sir Frog
Quote from: SilentMartyr
No saying it is a paradox is a much better explination. :roll:


I never said the situation was a paradox.


I may be wrong, but, I don't think SilentMartyr was talking about your post...I think he was just talking about in general about what people had said previously...

Quote from: Zenning
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Umm, none of the characters are always right. From that logic, I can argue that Magus made Lavos because that is what every character in Medina village said. It obviously isn't true, but since it is in the game it has to be...right?


WELL, not EVERYTHING the characters say in the game is false, either!

It is a mix, but what is said in the game should still be the basis for any discussion; you must then build upon your discussion/argument, weighing against it other events and dialogue in the game.


Yeah, but when what a character says is contradicted by in-game evidence, you've got to assume that they were, in fact, false.

Sir Frog

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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2005, 04:15:42 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Quote from: Sir Frog
Quote from: Zenning
So, we all agree that The Entity was responsible for Marle's disappearance?


I sure as hell don't!

EDIT: I am off to work now, but I have an argument outlined in my mind. I'll post it later. I also have an alternative solution...sort of. Furthermore, my argument will show that several of the "axioms" aren't always true. (I'm pretty sure Sentenal will get a kick out of this.)

...
2) Sir Frog, not to bash you or anything...But I really hate your posts that start "I don't think so!" and end with "I'll post my arguement as to why later!".

I do that way too much, I know.  In my defence, it takes me quite a while to write out a well-reasoned argument. What invariably happens is that I log in to the Compendium with what I believe is a fantastic idea, only to get sidetracked.  On the one had I apologize, but on the other I believe that, even if I do not contribue too much as far as analysis goes, I serve to facilitate discussions.  For that reason, I do not feel that my presence on the Compendium is redundant.  (And of course, I am going to follow up on everything I've said I'd follow up on!)

For the record, I am exceedingly busy right now as I am heading off to the UK for school in under two weeks and I have about two months' worth of work to do before then.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Quote from: Sir Frog
Quote from: SilentMartyr
No saying it is a paradox is a much better explination. :roll:


I never said the situation was a paradox.


I may be wrong, but, I don't think SilentMartyr was talking about your post...I think he was just talking about in general about what people had said previously...

I agree. I was just making it clear that I did not wish to have my distinct opinions relegated to the "general" opposition of SilentMartyr's point of view...but in light of the first half of this post, I can see that perhaps my opinions have not been all that distinct as of late.

Zenning

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« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2005, 12:37:27 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
This is inconsistant.  Lets take a simple example.  Take the Sealed Chests.  If you open a chest in 600ad, that chest is gone in 1000ad.  But lets say you didn't open it first in 600ad, you opened it in 1000ad.  Now, you can go back to 600ad, and get the chest.  But the same principle of how Marle was explained to have disappeared, the item you picked up at 1000ad should disappear.  But it doesn't.  Time Travelers Immunity.

Dude, that's getting into the mechanics of the game itself. Obviously, if you choose the chest in 1000AD before 600AD, the programmers aren't going to go to the trouble of making game semantics add up with what they want to say in the plot.

"Oh no, you still ended up taking the chest in 600AD! We're taking away your Blue Mail, and you're getting the Blue Vest! Suck it!"

EDIT: (That clearly wasn't the case; you could still get the Blue Vest in 600AD AFTER getting the Blue Mail in 1000AD, and STILL keep the Blue Mail from 1000AD even after you opened its chest in 600AD).

But, like I was trying to get across, the programmers didn't want to add anymore code than they absolutely had to. Thus, they let you keep the Blue Mail from 1000AD even after opening its chest in 600AD.


Quote from: V_Translanka
Quote from: Zenning
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Umm, none of the characters are always right. From that logic, I can argue that Magus made Lavos because that is what every character in Medina village said. It obviously isn't true, but since it is in the game it has to be...right?


WELL, not EVERYTHING the characters say in the game is false, either!

It is a mix, but what is said in the game should still be the basis for any discussion; you must then build upon your discussion/argument, weighing against it other events and dialogue in the game.


Yeah, but when what a character says is contradicted by in-game evidence, you've got to assume that they were, in fact, false.


True! HOWEVER, we are never offered an alternate in-game explanation for Marle's disappearance. Henceforth, we can reasonably assume that what was said in the instance is true.

Besides, this "Time Traveler's Immunity" is something you guys have theorized here, not something officially part of the time traveling theories explicitly stated in the Chrono series.

Sentenal

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« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2005, 02:08:39 am »
You want more evidence of Time Traveler's immunity?  Okay.

Lets take Magus.  His memory of the Ocean Palace disaster.  When he recounted it, there was no Crono and co.  There was no prophet.  The Guru's were there.  These things were not there the second time.  So, since you don't believe in Time Traveler's Immunity, his memory should change to include these.  It doesn't.

Lets take Lucca's mom.  Originally, she was crippled.  Lucca went back to change that.  That should have changed her memory so she wouldn't remmber her mother being crippled.  But she does.

Did you even read the Axioms?  This is one of THE most accepted theories.

Zaperking

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« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2005, 02:56:35 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
You want more evidence of Time Traveler's immunity?  Okay.

Lets take Magus.  His memory of the Ocean Palace disaster.  When he recounted it, there was no Crono and co.  There was no prophet.  The Guru's were there.  These things were not there the second time.  So, since you don't believe in Time Traveler's Immunity, his memory should change to include these.  It doesn't.

Lets take Lucca's mom.  Originally, she was crippled.  Lucca went back to change that.  That should have changed her memory so she wouldn't remmber her mother being crippled.  But she does.

Did you even read the Axioms?  This is one of THE most accepted theories.

WTF?

The reason Magus doesn't accept the new memories because he's from another time line. He's the original Magus. He goes back to Zeal, the new Magus in 600AD will remember all of that shit, and one day be sent to either Zeal, or acctually have a happy life as Magus if Lavos was destroyed in 12,000BC in the Black Omen.
I think that even Gray accepts the whole you go back in time - you create another time line theory.

cupn00dles

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« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2005, 11:16:18 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Sentenal
You want more evidence of Time Traveler's immunity?  Okay.

Lets take Magus.  His memory of the Ocean Palace disaster.  When he recounted it, there was no Crono and co.  There was no prophet.  The Guru's were there.  These things were not there the second time.  So, since you don't believe in Time Traveler's Immunity, his memory should change to include these.  It doesn't.

Lets take Lucca's mom.  Originally, she was crippled.  Lucca went back to change that.  That should have changed her memory so she wouldn't remmber her mother being crippled.  But she does.

Did you even read the Axioms?  This is one of THE most accepted theories.

WTF?

The reason Magus doesn't accept the new memories because he's from another time line. He's the original Magus. He goes back to Zeal, the new Magus in 600AD will remember all of that shit, and one day be sent to either Zeal, or acctually have a happy life as Magus if Lavos was destroyed in 12,000BC in the Black Omen.
I think that even Gray accepts the whole you go back in time - you create another time line theory.


hey hey

for what i understood from ingame facts and by reading all the articles and other stuff here in the forum, yes, everytime the time travellers change sumthin' in the past it creates a "new timeline" and the old one goes to the DBT... and the thing about lucca keepin' her memories that her mom once had her legs crippled is because lucca herself saved her mom, so the info inside the memory of her brain traveled together with her when she went back from the saving mom quest (990 if i'm not mistaken, can't remember surely) to the present. To me this is a very basic mechanic of time flow in both Chrono's... Like when Kid gets screwt in CC her amulet rewinds time to a moment when kid was still safe and sends her to a safe place too, and that's why she doesn't remember a thing about anything a moment before she was about to get screwed, her memory is rewinded together with time and she appears in a safe place without knowing wtf happened...

Sentenal

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« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2005, 01:37:32 pm »
Okay, lets review:

Zenning wrote:
Quote
Plot hole? Inconsistent with the rest of the series? Time Travelers' Immunity? Please do elaborate!


There was some debate, discussion, and eventually:

Zenning wrote:
Quote
I've already given my thoughts as to why I don't think The Entity didn't have a hand in it, I can't imagine why it'd be a paradox, and I can't imagine why Lucca's explanation would not be in accordance with the rest of the plot.


To which I said:

Sentenal wrote:
Quote
Marle's disappearce is completely inconsistant.

Lucca explained it as Marle's ansestor getting killed, thus preventing her from being born: The grandfather paradox.

This is inconsistant. Lets take a simple example. Take the Sealed Chests. If you open a chest in 600ad, that chest is gone in 1000ad. But lets say you didn't open it first in 600ad, you opened it in 1000ad. Now, you can go back to 600ad, and get the chest. But the same principle of how Marle was explained to have disappeared, the item you picked up at 1000ad should disappear. But it doesn't. Time Travelers Immunity.


To which you wrote:

Zenning wrote:
Quote
Dude, that's getting into the mechanics of the game itself. Obviously, if you choose the chest in 1000AD before 600AD, the programmers aren't going to go to the trouble of making game semantics add up with what they want to say in the plot.

"Oh no, you still ended up taking the chest in 600AD! We're taking away your Blue Mail, and you're getting the Blue Vest! Suck it!"


Note here who the first one is to try and "pick a fight" is.  Also, note here who provided evidence, and who simply said "no, your wrong."

And we continue...

Sentenal wrote:
Quote
You want more evidence of Time Traveler's immunity? Okay.

Lets take Magus. His memory of the Ocean Palace disaster. When he recounted it, there was no Crono and co. There was no prophet. The Guru's were there. These things were not there the second time. So, since you don't believe in Time Traveler's Immunity, his memory should change to include these. It doesn't.

Lets take Lucca's mom. Originally, she was crippled. Lucca went back to change that. That should have changed her memory so she wouldn't remmber her mother being crippled. But she does.

Did you even read the Axioms? This is one of THE most accepted theories.


In response to that:

Zenning wrote:
Quote
Yes, BUT, it is simply not true in your scenario involving the trasure chests, as, the programmers couldn't fit enough code in the game to do exactly what they wanted with it, thus, you ended up with a version of the same item for each time period you got it from simply because the programmers couldn't fit enough code into the game.


This also had the closing comment of "SUCK IT".  Basically, I gave story/plot elements that are consistant with the treasure chest part, yet you still refute the treasure chest one for a reason I still don't understand.

And we continue, you said that the Treasure chest thing was due to them not being able to fit anymore code into it.  I asked for proof:

Quote
How can I show you proof? It's merely a surmisement on my part. But how can you prove your treasure chest paradox is proof of TTI? Besides, TTI is just a theory designed by the people here at the Compendium; it's not canon! Just a theory made up here at the Compendium to try and explain what happened in the plot! You're stuck on theories, which aren't proven law!


I think that about wraps it up with who shows proof, and who simply says "Your wrong" without backing anything up.  Plus, the theorys on the Compendium have been discusses, argued, and debated, so they are just about all universally accepted, with the exception of a few, such as Sir Frog and Lord J Esq.

Sentenal

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« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2005, 02:22:03 pm »
Quote
I stated my position on the treasure chest paradox THREE TIMES, trying
to state it three different ways to try and get it across to you, but you didn't understand...


Oh, I completely understand you.  Your saying that its just a part of gameplay, yet not part of the story.  Thats why I gave you the other examples, such as Magus's memory, that is consistant with that.

Quote
That's right, you're just whirlin' that spear around, and you're not even
paying attention to who is being hit by it!


What does my avatar have to do with this?  When I gave proof of TTI, you were simply discounting it.

Sir Frog

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« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2005, 05:20:13 pm »
Quote from: Sir Frog
Time traveller immunity simply means that if an entity, X, on timeline Y travels back in time, then any changes in the new timeline Y' that result from X's travel will not affect X's past.  This is simply a consequence of X's having moved to another timeline, Y', in which X has no history.  Therefore, X's actions in the new timeline Y' cannot have any affect on X's past since X does not have one in Y'.  It is important to realize that this is just a consequence of the existance (and permissibility) of multiple timelines.  There is no actual immunity granted by some temporal district attorney.  

A common misconception about time traveller immunity is that the entity, X, is immune from all further time travel by other entities in Y'.  This is false.  If W' in Y' travels back in time so as to create Y'', then X in Y' is not immune to any resulting changes that affect X's past.  (Note, however, that only X's past in Y' could be altered; X's past in Y is immune to all time travel that originates in Y'.)

(Clarification:  X's is the possessive form of X.  It is not the plural of X'.)

Zenning

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« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2005, 05:53:31 pm »
Aha!

But consider this:

In Chrono Cross, if you remember, Chronopolis was sent back in time.

The purpose of the FATE computer system was to make sure that no major changes in history occurred,
so as to preserve its own existence.

So, if a computer and a city don't have Time Traveler's Immunity, why would a person, e.g. Marle?

If you ask me, this example alone disproves Time Traveler's Immunity.