The Rise of Porre

[ZeaLitY]

Newcoming players of Chrono Cross shall inevitably read dialogue concerning something that takes most wholly by surprise -- that Porre is now a military power, and maintains a dominating presence in El Nido and Zenan continent. However, much more alarming are other comments in the game, that, when coupled with a disturbing cutscene on the Final Fantasy Chronicles version of Chrono Trigger and remarks from the Chrono series' main writer, Masato Kato, reveal the Kingdom of Guardia to have suffered a crushing defeat by the forces of Porre in 1005 A.D. Does not this monstrously contradict the latter stages of Chrono Trigger, in which we left the mayor of Porre a happy and generous man? How could the Kingdom of Guardia, supposedly having existed for more than a thousand years as the strongest and most well-established power on Zenan, fall so suddenly? There is no question that Porre defeats Guardia, as seen by the flag in the cutscene and because of comments by Masato Kato, the series' chief writer. There seem to be almost no good reasons for the events that have transpired, but before one blames Square for contradicting itself plotwise, one should acknowledge excellent explanations and facts surrounding the rise of Porre and the subsequent fall of Guardia that do well to rationalize these sudden events.

First, let us examine the Porre that existed before Crono changed time and the Fall of Guardia took place. Although we do not fully know whether Porre overtook Guardia in 1005 A.D. before the events of Chrono Trigger, it is reasonable to believe that it did not occur, as the Guardia line continued through 2300 A.D., as seen by Doan, the Arris Dome director's descendant. Thus, was Porre even a military power before Chrono Trigger took place? If it is not, it discredits the ability of Porre to have a 'rise' even further; however, after looking into a few Japanese translations of the original game, a breakthrough was made:

ZeaLitY: While reading translations, I found that the 'Beret' in the English version of Chrono Trigger had been shortened from 'Porrean Beret' in the Japanese original. Berets are inextricably linked with the military; this single fact alone confirms that Porre most likely had its own army even before Crono went on his quest.

Nonetheless, this does not account for the happy mayor that exists after the Sun Stone sidequest -- something else does, however. It is a common fact that the military is often separate from civilian establishments; perhaps as there would be a mayor of Truce as opposed to a king of Guardia, there existed a civil mayor of Porre that did not have influence over the military. No less, some factors persist in suggesting the rise of Porre is unlikely.

Oswego del Fuego: It wasn't just the kind-hearted mayor who threw me off the whole "evil Porre" idea. I mean, did any of you, when first playing CT, assume that all of Zenan was in fact part of Guardia (save possibly for Medina's landmass)? No one refers to any specific portion of the world as "Guardia." The name is used in pretty general terms. People in San Dorino speak of King Guardia as _their_ king, even though the town is on Porre's landmass. Magus is referred to as being "in Guardia." Also, the map included with the SNES version labels 1000 AD not as "The Present," but as "Kingdom of Guardia."

With these facts considered, ZeaLitY presented a generally-accepted theory on Porre's status in Chrono Trigger, before Crono ripped through time and altered history. It is known as the Porre-Original Theory.

ZeaLitY: I assert that Porre was originally a military power, but without Crono's meddling, was not sufficiently equipped to subjugate the Kingdom of Guardia in 1005 A.D.

Time: Even if Crono had turned Porre's mayor from a greedy old man into a sharing one, the last century's worth of events likely re-wrote what Crono had done so the kind mayor was no longer in power.

Oswego del Fuego: My gut reaction is that Porre's victory over Guardia may very well have _not_ happened in the original timeline, and is indeed a side-effect of Crono's actions. My only reason for reacting in this way is that we simply aren't given any clue _at all_ in CT that Porre is in any way expansionist or tyrannical, or hostile toward Guardia. In fact, there are numerous points in CT that suggest that Guardia and Porre are very friendly (the ferry between the two cities, the unguarded Zenan bridge, free passage of tourists and fair-goers between the two lands, the total lack of _any_ mention of tension, and so on). I admit that this is in no way a watertight argument, but I can't help but think that Crono's actions must have changed the original political situation in some way, since the pre-Crono and post-Crono images of Porre are so markedly different.

This neatly works to disprove the fall of Guardia in the original timeline and also take into account the existence of Porre's military. Now that this is resolved, one must turn to why Porre did rise after Crono's changes. Unfortunately, we are first met with an interesting problem; recall that before Chrono Cross, an intermediary timeline (called Keystone T-1 on the Compendium, illustrated here) existed after Crono first saved the world in which Chronopolis was built (and later, sent back to 7600 B.C., thus causing the timeline in which Chrono Cross takes place -- referred to as Keystone T-2). The matter in question is whether Porre rised in this timeline as well -- that is, did Crono's actions alone cause Porre to rise, barring other influences that came about from the creation of El Nido? Although this is a somewhat minor point, it may explain better the rise, and thus deserves examination. Unfortunately, it is difficult to reach a solid conclusion. ZeaLitY holds that it did happen in Keystone T-1, simply because Chronopolis (or more specifically FATE) in Chrono Cross's objective was to preserve time as it had originally flowed until the future was reached. It thus is logical for it not to intervene in the events on the mainland -- which include the rise of Porre and Fall of Guardia -- so that history is not disturbed.

ZeaLitY: I've arrived at the conclusion that Chronopolis is Porrean in origin, or required Porre to rise in order for its existence. Surely, Chronopolis would intervene to stop such an event if it didn't happen in timeline Keystone T-1; rather, it happens. Thus, I believe we can safely say the enhancement of Porre's military and the Fall of Guardia occur in Keystone T-1. This almost entirely debunks the Porre-Elements theory, however, which suggests that Porre was empowered from elements brought by El Nido colonists. This is an excellent theory, though, which makes me think that perhaps Square oversighted this.

Chronopolis being of Porrean origin is not certain, however, no matter how ominous or threatening the term 'Central Regime' may sound. Oswego del Fuego presents a few points that suggest Guardia may have been Chronopolis's creator.

Oswego del Fuego: As for Chronopolis.... It may indeed be of Porre origin, and I have nothing concrete to show that it is not. However, I would offer the following as points showing that Chronopolis _might_ be Guardia's.

1.) Isn't there a mention of Arris Dome and Leene Dome somewhere in the Tower of Geddon? (Like, if you try to examine the train station turnstyles before getting the Station Pass or something?) Well, if it's possible to go to Leene Dome and Arris Dome from the Tower of Geddon by train, that suggests that the Tower of Geddon is in Guardia. Why is this relevant? Because the statue at the entrance to the tower, of a person looking upward with arms raised, is identical to that which stands in the entryway of Chronopolis.

2.) The inscription on the Chronopolis statue, while not precisely word-for-word, is the very same sentiment expressed on Nadia's bell. Besides, when is Porre a nation concerned about peace for the sake of the world's children? It sounds like something Marle would say.

3.) One of the "ghosts" at Chronopolis mentions that he is from Medina. Well, Medina is a land of demi-humans, and Porre hates demi-humans, even going so far as to drive them out of the lands it conquers. I can't see a Medina native working for Porre. Granted, a lot can change over so many years, but...I just don't see it.

Again, I'm not advancing this as an argument against Chronopolis being built for Porre. I'm just proposing that I don't think it's a certainty.

These two theories are known respectively as the Chronopolis-Porre Theory and the Chronopolis-Guardia Theory; a third exists known as the Chronopolis-Combination Theory that rounds out the options by suggesting Chronopolis was built by neither Guardia nor Porre, but by a separate regime probably existing out of the combination of the two.

Now that Keystone T-1 is out of the way, and its possible implications have been addressed, we can move on to the many causes that have been inferred or deduced for the rise of Porre and fall of Guardia in Chrono Cross's timeline. Every theory, by the way, must pass the test of originating outside the normal flow of time, as dictated by a comment in the famous GamePro interview with the developers of Chrono Cross: "Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history" (Masato Kato, chief writer). Firstly, we have:

Porre-Geography Theory

ZeaLitY: I hold that geographical changes set in motion by Crono's meddling in time produced favorable conditions for the strengthening of Porre's military and formation of militaristic expansion.

The main bastion of this theory is the presence of Fiona's forest, which is a substantial barrier between Porre and the northern regions of Zenan. This originates outside the normal flow of history in that it was caused by Crono's changes.

Tanith: With the forest there instead of a desert, Porre has now access to more materials and resources to fuel their war machine; plus this expansion would have integrated the province of Dorino in to Porre. And this brings us to Medina village. We know that Medina and Truce plan on building a port to one another. Porre was hardest hit by the war of the mystics and still felt sour about Medina as Medina did against humans before Crono fixed things. Porre [might have] felt betrayed by Guardia for having agreements with Medina.

Other geographical changes may have been incurred by Crono, but this is by far the most prominent and may work towards Porre's rise. However, better theories exist, the first of which is the

Porre-Revolution Theory.

bubblebobby2000: Instead of the Porre-Element theory, I've always imagined that the primary reason for Porre's uprising is their 'industrial revolution' and their advancement in pyro-technology--rifles, pistols, cannons, etc. In Chrono Cross their arsenal has been strongly emphasized many areas including Another's Termina, where they have cannons all over the place. And unless I'm terribly mistaken, the source of their strength has always been bothering me. I've always suspicious if Fate, who probably was the only being who had that knowledge then, had been directly involved.

ZeaLitY: In keeping this in tune with our previous assumptions, it is likely that this industrial revolution (which could not have happened and caused the fall of Guardia in a mere five years between 1000 and 1005 A.D.) was partly caused by changes by Crono, which could range from El Nido's elements/Fiona's forest starting the industrial revolution somehow, or simply the altered thoughts of a scientist who makes a scientific breakthrough in the new timelines.

The most plausable theory, however, is the

Porre-Elements Theory

This theory claims that Porre was a main proponent in the colonization of El Nido in 900 A.D. and onward, and thus was probably able to extract or import Dragonian elements to the mainland, which would have inevitably been equipped on the army -- thus majorly strengthening it. This theory can only work under Keystone T-2, as El Nido did not exist in the timeline in which Chronopolis was constructed. This also meets the 'outside-flow' condition.

Lochtiel: I don't think this has been said yet, but we can't forget that Elements were introduced to the timeline as a result of the time crash. Dragonians were still forging them atop Divine Dragon Falls at the time of Porre's discovery of the islands around 900-920 AD. The Porre sailors, or perhaps later colonists, took the Elements back to the mainland, thus introducing the world to a form of magic it didn't have previously. This could have been very critical in how Porre would rise up to be a military power.

Also it is said that Luccia used to work in a lab in Porre. It is also said that while on El Nido she traveled to Fort Dragonia to work on and repair some of the robotics found within. It then stands to reason that perhaps earlier other scientists had explored the ruins and gained futuristic technology as a result, which also was brought to the mainland. This is probably why Porre has so many cyborgs and robots on its side during the present while before the Time Crash the only real robot in existence was Gato.

I believe both of this could be said to be influences from outside the flow of time, as originally they came from the Reptite timeline.lements are the Dragonian version of magic, so initially they are from the other timeline. They utilize "Power Spots" where the earth's energies gather, sort of like the draw points in FF8. There the Dragonians can forge the Elements that harness a particular aspect of nature. The Dragon God sort of regulated this:

A living accumulation of the planet's energy! Originally it was a biological machine used to control the powers of nature in the future society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural energy itself, FATE divided the one Dragon God entity up into 6 weaker plasma life-forms...

...as Belthasar says. So it seems that Elements are a direct result of the Time Crash.

These new-found powers would certainly give Porre an edge over the rest of the planet, which had not been exposed to, nor prepared to defend against such magic.

Just for reference, Oswego del Fuego has constructed a map of where he believes El Nido is.



As you view it, also consider that one of the Chrono Cross developers claimed that "you can reach the Zenan continent if you go through the strait and travel the seas for several days," which supports Fuego's placement of El Nido in the general region of ocean farthest away from the main continents. Also keep in mind that Porre could reach it more quickly than Truce might.

Before you settle completely on the Porre-Elements Theory, consider that it could not have solely been the cause of Porre's rise if the fall of Guardia happened in Keystone T-1, as El Nido did not exist. However, as this theory is the most likely of the few viable ones, it is safe to say that among other factors this may have catalyzed Porre's rise significantly.

Lastly, Fuego speculates that Chronopolis may have had some intervention, which could be classified as of El Nido in origin.

Oswego del Fuego: That's a good point. In fact, now I'm thinking that at least some of their technology may have come from the future. I mean, I'm sure that Lucca-era engineers could build cannons and such (if they can build the Dragon Tank), but what about Grobyc? He's far more advanced than a mere robot, yes? And robots are considered ultra high-tech in the 1000 AD era (if Lucca, a scientific genius, is impressed by Robo).

Next in the way of theories on Porre's uprising is a collection of commentary that blame material pursuit on the city's militarism. Arguing that Porre's militaristic rise was caused by desire of power, supporters of this theory claim the want of several artifacts, including the Masamune, caused Porre's warmonging nature.

Porre-Masamune Theory

Here follows Ybrik Metaknight's explanation on why Porre would not have sought out the Masamune before the events of Chrono Trigger, and why this is possible afterwards.

Ybrik Metaknight: Follow the order of events up until the point where Frog keeps the medal. I think it's safe to assume that Frog would never have gone after the other part of the Masamune (just judging from his attitude and actions), and even if he had, he would have been unable to find someone to fix it, as "Nary a soul remains to mendeth the Masamune" (sorry if I got the quote a little bit wrong!). It therefore would not have existed in Guardia in A.D. 1005, the year Porre presumably overthrew the great kingdom. Now, it's possible that one of the motivations, perhaps even the primary motivation, for overthrowing Guardia would have been the temptation of gaining control of the legendary sword.

The point of all my rambling is simply this: If Marle and Crono had never traveled to A.D. 600 that fateful afternoon, the Masamune would never have been fixed and would therefore not exist to draw the Porre army to it, and Guardia may not have been overthrown. While this is not necessarily true, Crono, Marle, and Lucca, in their child forms in Chrono Cross, seem to hint that the world would not be as it was then if not for their actions. I've always thought they meant defeating Lavos, which would not fit with our decision that Lavos was only truly defeated in A.D. 1999, because, as I have previously stated, the world was only truly different from that point forward. However, if other actions are considered, such as the party bringing the Masamune back into existance, their actions leading directly or indirectly to the fall of Guardia is a definite possibility.

The riches of the Rainbow Shell might have also allured the nation. As last seen, it was sitting in Guardia's treasury.

Supporters of this theory also claim that the sword seen in the Fall of Guardia cutscene is the Masamune, and that it is being stolen. Many also hold that this event marked the corruption of the Masamune (as seen in Chrono Cross). Radical Dreamer argues this point, citing the Masamune's normal appearance in the cutscene as opposed to it's evil, mishapen form as seen in Cross.

Radical Dreamer: Also, I would say that the Masamune was still "good" (Masa, Mune, and Doreen still in control) until after 1005 A.D. When it is stolen, it still looks like it did in 600 A.D. It doesn't become "evil" (I call this form the Mammon Blade, because at this point, the dominant energy is that of Lavos, drawn from the Mammon Machine) until some point after the fall of Guardia.

In addition, the Masamune may have brought out the evil in Porrean soldiers' hearts, causing further destruction. Khift implies this while arguing that the Masamune had to have been corrupted prior to the fall of Guardia, which may disprove the Porre-Masamune Theory somewhat:

Khift: I think you're all misinterpreting Radius's/Melchior's quote. Karn said that the Masamune brought out the evil in someone's heart, not that it reflected someone's heart. Both Radius and Darius are exceptionally pure human beings, yet the Masamune possed them both and caused them to commit/attempt murder due to their want to be unquestionably on top, however small it was. And it's pretty obvious that, in the original timeline, the Masamune didn't do anything like that to Melchior/whoever stabbed the Mammon machine.

I can't give you a definite, solid thesis on what I think happened, but I don't think that a mere power-hungry human could affect this sword that was built to kill a demon in such a profound manner. I think it would take more than that. Alot more. My guess is that it got involved in some BAD voodoo of sorts, or that it was Masa & Mune's psyche.

In CT, I remember it being said that Melchior forged the Masamune in order to destroy Lavos and/or the Mammon Machine. The Masamune is, as is stated/shown several times in CT and CC, comprised of two sentient beings, Masa and Mune. They failed their job. Yeah, the messed the Mammon Machine up badly, but they didn't destroy it completely, and they never touched Lavos. They failed their purpose, and after Crono/Frog used the sword, it never had another use that could ever match it's previous one. So here you have two sentient beings locked up in a sword for all eternity with the knowledge that they failed to do the one thing they were made to do.

Tanith here gives more reasoning for Porre's pursuit of the sword.

Tanith: The masamune is another symbol of power and it once lay in the Denadoro mountains, Porre terriotory; I'm guessing the people of Porre don't like the fact that an outlander came in and took a weapon of many possibilities. I mean, if some dude came into your house and took your shotgun and killed Osama with it, and that person is regarded a hero, of course you'd be jealous.

Nonetheless, how would the Masamune exist outside of the timeflow, and thus qualify in light of Masato Kato's statement? The most plausible theory for this is that normal time does not apply to Masa and Mune, much like Nu are seemingly unaffected by it. Warmgun argues against the Masamune theory here.

warmgun: As a pure matter of opinion, I think its much more reasonable to assume that Porre went to war over the natural resources of El Nido rather than a sword. Here's how I see it playing out. Porre is the first nation from the outside world to explore El Nido, thus laying claim to the land. They discover some valuable natural resource (elements most probably). Guardia begins to feel threatened by this new power and begins to become interested in El Nido. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Porre easily destroys Guardia with elements and the various technologies to be found (perhaps creating Grobyc). In this way, an outside force does act upon Porre. The very existence of El Nido is an external influence on the planet!

Lastly, the Sun Stone may have had some clout.

Tanith: Now, the sunstone we know was in Porre for a brief period of time, but Crono jumped in and took it away, and now Guardia has it. Now you're probably wondering why would Porre be pissed at Guardia for this...it was a symbol of great power taken away.

ZeaLitY: The mayor may have had it and generously given it away, but that surely does not mean others in Porre wanted it.

Doctor Shaft brings up several points of refution against the stone, however.

Doctor Shaft: Sun Stone: Porre had only recently found the treasure in the cave and taken it. Or at least it seemed that way. No one in Porre spoke of having the Sun Stone for a long time. As far as we know, the stingy Porre mayor merely kept it because it was a precious treasure. No one knew what the Sun Stone did... at all. Only people who lived or traveled outside the normal flows of time actually understood it's function. So, in the new time line, losing a glowing treasure is hardly something to want to fuss about. It was promptly used to forge powerful weapons, the ultimately helped warp the time line... yet again. So memories of the Sun Stone were probably completely vaporized by then.

The aforementioned theories form the mainstream; another theory exists, however, that was derived from the long hair of the man who slays the last Guardian defender in the Fall of Guardia cutscene.

Porre-Dalton Theory

As we last saw him, Dalton was cursing his luck as he disappeared into a black hole atop the Epoch. Could the power-hungry, maniacal Zealian general have played a role in the Rise of Porre? It's been observed that Dalton can use his magic even after normal Zealians have lost theirs, as he is an innate; perhaps he used this to impress Porrean commanders and assume some level of control.

Ybrik Metaknight: When Dalton was defeated in 12,000 B.C., he was sucked into some sort of gate. We don't know whether this was a timegate or some other sort of gate. We simply don't see him after this. If it was a timegate, however, Dalton might have arrived in A.D. 1000 before Porre was changed (assuming Porre was drastically different after Lavos's defeat in A.D. 1999, which I think is highly probable) and decided to lay low, as he would have little support in starting a war with Guardia if Porre was peaceful. He may have gone somewhere else to find some support for whatever evil crusades he might have wanted to start, or he may have simply quietly lived out his life. However, once the party defeated Lavos in 1999, Porre might have changed due to the effects of the Time Crash. Dalton would arrive in militaristic Porre and see an opportunity to satisfy his lust for power.

Unfortunately for this theory, this is somewhat laughable and better suited for a fanfiction.

Currently, these are the foremost explanations; as new commentary and theories are added, they shall be reflected here in this article. Although we still do not have solid proof of any single theory causing Porre's rise, we do know facts about its aftermath -- Guardia continues to exist as a region or petty state, and Crono and Marle live -- although the evidence behind their survival is for another article on the fates of the Chrono Trigger team.

Before you go, stop by here and cast your vote on which theory you believe is most responsible for Porre's rise. Your vote is indeed important, as gauging popular opinion of theories is a necessity.

Thank you for reading! If you wish to comment on anything, whether in agreement or challenge, please do so. I'd like to give thanks to

-Everyone featured in this article, having contributed commentary or maps/charts.

-Everyone who has been involved with the Chrono Compendium positively, no matter how large or small their work.

-Squaresoft for creating Zeal and the vast depth of the Chrono series.

-You especially for reading this article. Although work to explain events is a noble thing in itself, its value is multiplied when others benefit from it or enjoy it; thank you for reading and if you have any questions, do not be afraid to ask.

[TreizKushrenada]

Porre Uprising Non Magical Theory - Is it possible that there was nothing out of the ordinary about Porres uprising and that simply with their new found resources (fiona forest) and their dislike of gaurdia, they attacked and Gaurdia was just caught completely off gaurd.  The element of surprise is a very powerful ally in warfare.  They would have striked at the very heart of Gaurdia (Gaurdia Castle), after which an occupation of the area would ensue and Porres military would be presented with even more resources and time to build up there military even further without any real problems except for maybe a small rebellion. (because if Gaurdia was totally annihilated there would be no remenets of it in the furture).

[Akuma]

Well look, most likely El Nido and Chronopolis have nothing to do with Porre's rise of power, as Chronopolis is the result of a powerful nation Porre. Therefore it would be an impossible paradox if Porre's power came from Chronopolis.

Anyways, either The Frozen Flame, The Masamune, or a powerful person appeared to make Porre strong. Why don't we examine what happened to the Masamune after 600 A.D. Glenn probably put it back in the Denadoro Mountains which are inaccessible in 1000 A.D.

Well we know The Mayor of Porre was into treasures (the sun stone), so maybe when Dalton appeared he forced him to find it. And the guy at the right does look like Dalton in Life Skips a Beat.

Also, Porre soldiers have a similar stance to what Thrashers did. And I believe there was "absolutely" no military in Porre before either Dalton, the frozen flame, or the masamune appeared. I mean, tell me "where" are they? Where is this military in CT? Well I'll tell you where in Guardia Castle that's where. In 600 A.D. soldiers from Choras, Porre, Dorino and Truce all joined the Guardian army.

As for the Porrean Beret, whatever it meant, it sure didn't mean Porre had a military, I'm sure the creators of CT didn't have CC in mind when they made it. It was probably just a beret made in Porre. Also notice Porre has guns in CC. The only people who can make guns are Lucca and Taban. Perhaps Dalton had Taban kidnapped?

Anyways, a few hundred well trained men, Dalton with the Masamune, and possibly the Frozen Flame would be enough to take down Guardia and Crono.

Or maybe, just maybe, the "shadow" at the right of Life Skips a beat is Crono himself. Crono's no weakling, but people like Garai and Dario were killed by the masamune and they were tough. Hmmm, I still don't really think Dalton could've killed Crono, perhaps if Dalton never did appear in 1000 A.D. and simply remains "unknown" but in 12,000 B.C on some hidden island with Queen Zeal.

Hmm, let's take all the theories I just stated but replace "Dalton" with "Crono". Let's say after the Masamune became evil, Crono probably didn't know this, and the king of guardia asks him to find the Masamune to keep for safe keeping (they already have the rainbow shell).

Crono probably searches through Denadoro mountains pulls the Masamune out which Glenn put there 400 some years earlier. Crono goes crazy, and heads to Porre and Porre for some reason (taxes?) wants Guardia dead also, so Crono and these troops march to Guardia and destroy it. I mean, you expect Crono to have the same hairstyle for 5 years? Perhaps the guy on the right is him. But perhaps the finding of the masamune and the downfall of Porre took place some months or years apart.

It says "dissappearance" of the masamune. Well we don't know when it appeared in that era. Or how for that matter. Anyways, Crono possibly had kids with Marle before he went insane with the sword.

This theory could possibly take place in the El Nido/Chronopolis timeline, but we can't say how much El Nido really did effect the Zenan mainland.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed my theories. But I do hope the next Chrono game explains it. I call this the Porre-Crono theory.

P.S. In the Lucca letter she makes absolutely no mention at all of Porre taking down Guardia or even Porre for that matter. So Lucca found Kid in 1004 A.D. She probably wrote the letter in 1004 A.D. also. Obviously it was written sort of like a will. Anyways, she probably lived with Kid until like what? 1013 A.D. around that. There's nothing implying "when" that letter was written, all we know is sometime after 1004 A.D.

[Chibi-Bob]

Whoa--stop the presses! I just remembered a tiny scene from Chrono Trigger that might cause anyone who believes the fall of Lavos is the catalyst for the rise of Porre to rethink their objectives.

Not sure if it's every time the party dies, or occasionally, during specific events, or even just during the battle with Lavos--but I distinctly remember that short scene in some kind of mecca or warship of sorts, with soldiers clad in the Porre uniforms from Chrono Cross, and the helmsmen saying something along the lines of "Fire on Truce!" or something about an invasion--forgive my foggy mind.  Then a shot of the planet pops up with the words scrawled across it, "But the future refused to change!" (I believe this refers to the defeat of the party, not the invasion).  If this is the case--then Porre had these military advantages even before Lavos was defeated, and they were attacking Truce and Guardia even before Crono supposedly saved the world.

Just a little interesting tidbit I remembered--anyone want to expand? :)

[Epsilon]

Actually, I think that was the Day of Lavos... Doesnt Lavos come out of the ground? And Porre is also mentioned as being attacked... I know "BUT THE FUTURE REFUSED TO CHANGE" shows up in the Lavos Ending... (Because the Future (2300 AD) refused to change (It was still destroyed)...

[GrayLensman]

That is the Day of Lavos ending.  If your party ever loses to Lavos, you see this.

OPERATOR: Direct attack on Truce!!

SUPERVISOR: Calm down!
   How does it look down there?

OPERATOR: Porre...Choras...Medina...!
   Everything's been destroyed!!

DIRECTOR: ...

OPERATOR: Director!
   We're under attack!

DIRECTOR: Take cover in the

   ShelterDome!

OPERATOR: Director!
   Sir, you must come with us!

DIRECTOR: We're out of time!
   Get moving!!

OPERATOR: Y, yes sir!

DIRECTOR: ...

   Lavos...

But...the future refused to change.

[GreenGannon]

We can assume that the takeover in Keystone-T2 had to occur the same way as T1.

There were no elements in T1. So that disproves the Porre-Elements theory.

[Leebot]

How do you know it took place the same way, if at all, in T1?

[GreenGannon]

Because that was FATE's (self-appointed) purpose, to make sure everything went the same way.

[Chrono'99]

I've just thought about something, Robo's carcass was put in Fiona's Shrine from some century after 600AD to 1000AD, when Crono's party repaired him and took him away. Maybe Porre studied his circuits in order to start making their own robots? Also, in Keystone T-2, Porre might have been quite pissed off when they learnt the future prince of Guardia just popped in their sacred shrine and stole "their" Robo...

[jotabe1789]

Well... what if the Rise of Porre is but an exaggeration?
What if what happened was, actually, the revolutions for independence for each of the "nations" (Porre, Medina, Truce, Dorino, Choras). We don't see actually that Guardia castle is attacked, only that the Guardia symbols are depicted in defeat. Guardia power collapses all over the world, but not necesarily because Guardia itself is attacked. That would have certainly shifted the power balance, and rivalries between the new nations might have given rise to militarism in all of them, resulting in Porre achieving a predominant role, but not hegemonic in any way.
Of course, inhabitants of El Nido, being close to Porre, would see them as totally powerful and oppressive.
What of this? ^_^

[Carmensk]

May I say something?  This is my first post here, so forgive me if it's out of line (this was the only topic about this article that I saw though).

On points made about Chronopolis being of Porre origin or being built for Porre... why should it be?  It's purpose (or FATE's, I'm quite rusty about this game as I haven't owned it and therfore haven't played it in years) is simply to protect the history it knows.  Porre's rise was obviously part of that history, but that doesn't mean that the facility itself is Porrean, or if Porre even exists in that time (though don't hold me to that last one, I don't remember whether they mention Porre in the 'future' sequences in either game, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did).  It simply is protecting the history it knows, in which Porre rose in 1000 something.

Was that too much for a first post?  

[ShoeMagus]

I think there are things not being considered in the Rise of Porre.

What do we know? We know that somehow the Masamune went from being the holy Lavos slawyin sword, to a cursed evil sword drawing forth deep seated hatreds. There's speculation of Porre having its own military and that would make sense. But a few ideas.

One: We'll say Porre is part of Guardia. Now it could have its own military or it could just have an occupation of soldiers, probably some that were born in Porre.

Two: There was some catalyst that sent Porre into power. Something gave rise. The Dalton Theory suggests that Dalton was sucked foward to the Present and managed to take over. Whether it was Dalton or someone else, it all relates to my idea.

The Masamune's power comes from the weilder. Its been suggested that the Masamune's corruption has something to do with Masa and Mune, but they were only Safeguards. They were only there to make sure that the Sword stayed with the purpose it was supposed to. Obviously they failed somehow. But really, Masa and Mune (and later Doreen) have nothing to do with teh sword's power. That rather comes from the Dreamstone it was made from.

Now what is the Dreamstone famous for? Why is it called Dreamstone? Because its power is to take the potentials within us, our hopes and dreams, our feelings and emotions and translate them into reality, thus giving rise to magic.

Now while the Masamune was in the Frog's possession, Crono's (as the Red knife) and Melechior's, it is regarded as holy and good. Something to stand against evil. Yet it went with Frog back to 600 where he lived to a ripe old age (purely speculation of course   ) and the Sword went on. It no doubt was in Guardia's possession.

Now we have four hundred years. Four hundred years of both good and bad men having access to it. Each successive person imbuing it with their own emotions. But there was regularity. But obviously it would have been exposed to negativity. Masa and Mune would be sleeping, believing Lavos done with and their purpose finished. So they wouldn't regulate the power. All it would have taken was the right evil man to come by (hell maybe Yakra masquerading as the Chancellor) to have his feelings transferred over. Hate, malice, cruelty and greed. Now the Sword has had affect on people using it (as apparent with Karsh/Dario scenario). Could the evil feelings led to some political unrest. So the peaceful kingdom of Guardia wasn't so peaceful?

Enter Porre. We have a charismatic and impressive leader (Dalton we'll say but its not dependant on him.) We have him expound the idea that Guardia's time is over and that Porre will stand to correct the problem. Given Dalton is from Zeal, he may have knowledge of the Black Wind which may have lead him to use that name (though thats dependant on Dalton being the leader.)

So Dalton mobilizes against Guardia. Now either he attacks Guardia or he steals the Masamune and attacks. Either way he gets ahold of the sword and so begins the Massacre of 1005.

We have observed Dalton's behavior as being power hungry. Note that the Masamune caused Dario and Radius to both take out threats to them being the top of the Devas. So is it so strange that Dalton got ahold of teh Sword, and his power hungry nature translated, corrupting the Masamune?

After the influence of whoever came before (The False Chancellor for example, and the present King Guardia when he was being a moron) along with Dalton's final massacre and corruption, it would indeed be enough to upset everything Frog, Melechior, and Crono had done, thus making it the Cursed Sword.

A lot of this ties Dalton in. But Dalton isn't needed. Motive for a Dalton-less Porre nation? Well like I said, continued influence of a steadily more and more evil Masamune on Guardia and its higher ups (as it would no doubt be kept in the Castle) would cause political unrest leaving things open for a revolt. Who else but disgruntled Guardia Knights joining the first rebellious leader synthesized with Porre's military (though once again that might not have existed.) As The Guardia military always considered itself honorable and just (more emphasized in 600 AD but no doubt carried on) it is plenty of motive to leave a politically unrest and injust Guardia in favor of Porre, who comes out looking golden.

Other factors in the political unrest? Well the King being put on trial and the subsequent battle in the courthouse (which will have been spread like fire with rumors abound.) The subsequent unrest of whether the King was guilty or not. Things like Crono's scheduled execution (which anybody knowing Crono would know is sham and would mistrust Guardia, and on the inverse, anybody believing Crono evil questioning Crono's pardon.) And the young Fritz, caught with a band of thieves (Radical Dreamers?).

Just the thoughts of a gaming obsession.

EDIT:

I was reading the Real World Parallel article and it caught my eye that 1000 A.D. was said to be an eighteenth century kind of place (though with some decidedly post 18th century technology) but when you consider the climate of the eighteenth and seventeenth centuries, one of political reform and revolt, well it seems another good parallel to my theory.

[donutbandit]

I simply think that changes to history made by Crono and company caused a new time line in which Porre became dominant. This may not have even happened until after the game when the team went in search of Crono's mom, who had fallen into the gate.

The existence of the forest may have been a factor. I really doubt if the Masamune was. Porre developed as a modern day miltary power that used weaponry and technology, not swords and knights.

BTW, why does San Dorino no longer exist in 1000 AD?

[Daid]

San Dorino was probably abandoned
Someone in truce mentions earthquakes which would explain the moutain where Dorino once was.
Also in 1999 AD I found somthing interesting.
There was no Guardia Castle and no Zenan Bridge.
This means that Porre and Guardia may have been at war or distrusting.
I might be wrong though.