Author Topic: More Cross ruminations  (Read 5640 times)

ZeaLitY

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More Cross ruminations
« on: September 14, 2005, 05:49:31 pm »
I posted this somewhere else, and will probably get flamed for it. Anyway,

The definite flaw of Chrono Criss is the abundance of playable characters who have little to no character development and contribute nothing unique to the story. This alone also caused the developers to take out Guile's backstory as Magus, effectively making a bastardized character with no history and leaving Magus's history as a big question mark. Other than the character problem, the only other non-opinionated, legitimate criticism is the cramming of a lot of plot into some speeches on Opassa Beach. The plot itself is godlike and totally consistent with itself as Trigger's; the only unsolvable enigma in the game is the Dead Sea, whose mechanics aren't exactly explained (though fans have tried and succeeded with clues). This does not constitute a plot hole, along with other unexplained occurrences, as Trigger fanboys so vocally point out. The hard definition of a plot hole is something that actively contradicts something else in a plot; simply because something is unexplained does not mean it contradicts anything. It is entirely logical that the Kingdom of Guardia could fall, and Crono and his crew are die, considering Masato Kato wrote it (saying Crono & Marle were involved in some kind of incident) and we have no evidence to the contrary. Just because it doesn't appeal to fans doesn't mean it is not canon.

The Chrono Cross hate in a large part is blown out of proportion by a few vocal critics who rant loudly. This may sound like a "Silent Majority" copout, but considering that Cross outsold its expectations in the United States and generated a sizable profit, it is not. Chrono Trigger fanboys wanted to play as Crono again, have the same old battle system, etc. while the Chrono Cross developers explicitly stated in interviews that they wanted to innovate and explore more aspects of the Chrono mythos. This meant a new battle system, a new overworld (though in actuality its just a few square miles in the ocean of the Chrono Trigger overworld), new locations and characters, and a new cast. This is why they said Chrono Cross is not a direct sequel to Trigger in terms of gaming. However, in plot, Cross directly ties up loose ends of Chrono Trigger, and exists solely becuase of the actions of Crono in the first game. Cross never contradicts anything stated in the first either, an amazing achievement for a game with such a labyrinthine plot. Altogether, Cross seems to be like a masterpiece work of art compared to Trigger's action adventure movie; the scenes are pastoral, the characters vivid, the music perfect (can't think of a better word for the soundtrack), and the plot deep and organic. Cross received rave reviews from professional game reviewers, even receiving one of four tens ever on Gamespot. However, the myth that it "sucks" is still perpetrated by Trigger fanboys who cannot distinguish their own dislikes and expectations from critical fact. Cross is one of the best expressions of art in video game form ever made, though on some fanboys, it was entirely wasted because of narrow-minded expectations.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 03:21:48 pm by ZeaLitY »

Hadriel

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More Cross ruminations
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 05:57:49 pm »
It wasn't GameFAQs, was it?

If so, you need to be spending less time posting there and more time figuring out the addresses of everyone that lives there so the government can "remove" them.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2005, 06:04:46 pm »
I've read this before...but I'm not sure where you posted it. =P

Chrono Cross is a good game; people who hold it in contempt are either petty or unrefined. As I have maintained in the past, the game's biggest flaw is its poor direction, "direction" as in what Kato's job was. Important scenes didn't hit as hard or as poignantly as they should have; the plot wasn't paced well and had lousy tempo; the storyline unfolded in fits and starts, much of which was too predictable and most of the rest of which was completely out of left field, almost to the point of being bizarre. The characters were mostly shallow, and there were far too many of them--two problems which contributed to each other. The artistic flavor often had less intrigue to it, less dramatic substance, often opting for generic locales such as a prehistoric jungle or an island of bones, with a paucity of rich and complex settings such as we saw in the gap between dimensions, or the Dead Sea and Tower of Ruin.

All of these weaknesses, taken together, strip the game of any chance at legendary status. Let's be honest; the Compendium exists because of Chrono Trigger and its effect on you, ZeaLitY, and people come to place and make it propser also mostly because of Chrono Trigger. Such a place as our Compendium would not be nearly as likely to exist if Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross stood on their own. Of course some people do prefer one of those two games over Chrono Trigger, and their opinion is certainly valid, to an extent.

I think it is important to acknowledge Chrono Trigger's centrality to the Chrono series, but by the same token you do well to point out that it is poor form, and simply wrong, to dismiss Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross as poor games in spite of everything they have to offer.

GrayLensman

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More Cross ruminations
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2005, 08:08:39 pm »
I moved this topic to the analysis section.

We should respect others right to dislike Chrono Cross.  People may be a bit boorish in how they express their oppinion, but that doesn't mean they have to like everything.  I think most people's distaste for Chrono Cross stems from the large stylistic differences with its predecessor and not due to a lack of artistic merit.  People who enjoyed Chrono Trigger may not necessarily enjoy the different experience presented by Chrono Cross.  As Zeality has often described, Chrono Trigger catapults the player at warp speed through a rich and varied story peppered with memorable characters, while Chrono Trigger takes a more leasurely pace through a deeper, more complex plot.

Apart from what has already been stated, my only issue with Chrono Cross is the battle system, which I find so tedious that the game is pretty much spoiled for me.

V_Translanka

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More Cross ruminations
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2005, 10:33:25 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
This does not constitute a plot hole, along with other unexplained occurrences, as Trigger fanboys so vocally point out.


Quote from: ZeaLitY
Chrono Trigger fanboys wanted to play as Crono again, have the same old battle system, etc.


I don't like how often you post about and generalize CT fans who point out flaws (incorrectly or not) about CC. It puts a lot on me, being a CT fan who realizes that CC isn't perfect. I mean, it's as if you're saying that it's only blind CT fans who could possibly see anything wrong w/CC.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
It is entirely logical that the Kingdom of Guardia could fall, and Crono and his crew are die, considering Masato Kato wrote it (saying Crono & Marle were involved in some kind of incident)


I still choose to believe (fanboyish stubborness?) that Kato's hints that they may be dead are actually hints that they could still be alive and that he's got something else up his sleeve for them...I can hope dammit!

Other than the majority of the characters, the not quite perfectly told story, and the bland battle system, I found CC to be enjoyable. Although I still prefer both CT's soundtrack, which seemed to have more variety and more memorable tunes, and RD's mood-setting tunes, I recognize that CC had a couple really good tunes and that the soundtrack really fit CC's setting perfectly.

I just think that the lack of character development was just a major blow.

Silvercry

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Re: More Cross ruminations
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2005, 11:11:14 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
The definite flaw of Chrono Criss is the abundance of playable characters who have little to no character development and contribute nothing unique to the story. This alone also caused the developers to take out Guile's backstory as Magus, effectively making a bastardized character with no history and leaving Magus's history as a big question mark. Other than the character problem, the only other non-opinionated, legitimate criticism is the cramming of a lot of plot into some speeches on Opassa Beach.


Well, that and a battle system so watered down that it never really mattered who was in your party half the time, since they all pretty much performed or didn't perform the same way, innate element be damned.  I'm not sure now that even happened, since the battle system was pretty much lifted from Xenogears, and it was way better in that game.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Chrono Trigger fanboys wanted to play as Crono again, have the same old battle system, etc. while the Chrono Cross developers explicitly stated in interviews that they wanted to innovate and explore more aspects of the Chrono mythos. This meant a new battle system, a new overworld (though in actuality its just a few square miles in the ocean of the Chrono Trigger overworld), new locations and characters, and a new cast.


I'd be willing to bet the same people who dislike Cross because it wasn't Trigger, disliked FF VIII because it wasn't FF VII.  In both case, Square decideed to do something very different with a sequel, the Junction system of FF VIII, and -- well -- just about everything in Cross.  I've always found that kind of ironic, because we, as gamers, are always clamoring for something new, some fresh innovation above an beyond the same old same old.  Yet as soon as we get it, we don't know what do with it.   :roll:

I’m not a fan of CC.  I pretty much said so when I first joined he site.  I’m not a rabid in my dislike as some, but I still believe in to be inferior to Trigger in every way save graphics.  Though I do give the plot a nod.  Very ambitious.  A little hard to follow when your on pain killers, but then so is Sesame Street.  But I digress...

SilentMartyr

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More Cross ruminations
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 03:44:22 pm »
FFVII and VI are incomparable in this threads respect since they are not sequels to each other. But the point you place is still good, Starfox might have been a better comparison.

Kazuki

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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 05:00:58 pm »
Though it's possibly because I've been immersed on my first playthrough of Chrono Cross, and I haven't played Chrono Trigger, I may actually be finding myself enjoying Chrono Cross more than 'Trigger.

If so, than I must be in the extreme minority, and I think I would be eaten alive at GameFaqs...

V_Translanka

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More Cross ruminations
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2005, 12:53:18 am »
Nah, I think the hatred for CC is overrated more than anything...Just don't make any lame "Cross or Trigger" threads and heck, if you really wanna play it safe, just stick to the Cross forum (it's better than the Trigger forum anyhow >_>)...Although, if you really wanna play it safe, just...don't go to GameFAQs at all...We really shouldn't even be speaking it's oh so unholy of unholy names anyhow...

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2005, 01:20:40 am »
Yeah, I left GameFAQs earlier this year and haven't missed it.

Kazuki

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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2005, 01:23:33 am »
Yeah...I don't have any wish to go there anyways (after taking a look at what it's like...)

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2005, 04:37:28 pm »
OCR is enough hoopla for me, i would probably lose all faith in humanity if I went to Gamefaqs.

Weggy

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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2005, 05:07:33 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
I moved this topic to the analysis section.

We should respect others right to dislike Chrono Cross.  People may be a bit boorish in how they express their oppinion, but that doesn't mean they have to like everything.  I think most people's distaste for Chrono Cross stems from the large stylistic differences with its predecessor and not due to a lack of artistic merit.  People who enjoyed Chrono Trigger may not necessarily enjoy the different experience presented by Chrono Cross.  As Zeality has often described, Chrono Trigger catapults the player at warp speed through a rich and varied story peppered with memorable characters, while Chrono Trigger takes a more leasurely pace through a deeper, more complex plot.

Apart from what has already been stated, my only issue with Chrono Cross is the battle system, which I find so tedious that the game is pretty much spoiled for me.


I was going to chime in with my own opinion, but you summed it so fantastically I don't feel that I need to as much.  I will agree the battle system is the game's main flaw.  Another important one was already mentioned, that there are so many characters they receive little to no development.  That is absolutely key in any RPG.  Characters must have depth and personalites so you can grow to either love them or hate them.  Without this dynamic change, it really takes a lot out of the RPG genre and rehashes the entire thing into a mindless clickfest.

I will agree the story of Cross is at times, extremely good.  As said previously, it never contradicts itself or has plot holes.  I will say that is at times, overly complex.  This may because must of its meaning was lost in translation, literally.

And of course, the music is very very good, with only a small few exceptions.  The Battle theme being one of them, and unfortunantly you hear it a lot.

Cross isn't a bad game by any stretch, but it just doesn't stack up to Trigger.

Kazuki

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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2005, 05:48:57 pm »
I'm going to be the odd man here...but I actually didn't hate the battle theme. In fact, I grew to *GASPZOMGWTFBBQ* enjoy it, though Chrono Trigger's battle theme was much better.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2005, 08:32:14 pm »
Quote from: Kazuki
I'm going to be the odd man here...but I actually didn't hate the battle theme. In fact, I grew to *GASPZOMGWTFBBQ* enjoy it, though Chrono Trigger's battle theme was much better.

I didn't hate the battle theme either. It's a perfectly nice theme. The problem is that, regardless of their musical quality, I tend to hate the placement of battle theme music. My biggest complaint about Chrono Trigger is that its damned battle music would consistently interrupt the location music, thus spoiling the mood. One of the reasons the Ocean Palace was that much more intense as a dunegon, is that the battle music wasn't interrrupted. Instead all you would hear to signal the start of battle is the sword rining out through the air. I much preferred that.

Chrono Cross had the same problem. Most of the time, the location music would be interrupted by the battle music...completely spoiling the mood. So, no matter how good the battle theme is, I don't really care. I am against regular enemy battle music in general.