Poll

What religion are you?

Islam
2 (11.8%)
Christianity
9 (52.9%)
Judaism
2 (11.8%)
Hinduism
0 (0%)
Buddhism
0 (0%)
Confuciousism
0 (0%)
Taoism
0 (0%)
Intelligent Design
0 (0%)
Atheism
4 (23.5%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: September 26, 2005, 09:06:02 am

Author Topic: Religion  (Read 5054 times)

Hadriel

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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2005, 01:11:26 pm »
In an odd way, the concept of evolution actually strengthens the thesis of Christianity.  It holds that our world is one of suffering and sin, trapped in an endless cycle of death from which only faith in God can save us.  Similarly, the evolutionary paradigm requires that in order to sustain one's life, one must take from other beings.  Many find this a despicable set of circumstances, as do I; Chrono Cross complained at length about it.

Eriol

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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2005, 01:22:30 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
One supposed paragraph said the prophet condoned a man for killing his slave, who was also a pregnant. This is probably untrue because in the Quran the woman who adultered went up to the prophet and said kill me because i have done this sin. But the prophet waited a while before killing, after she gave birth.

What a role-model.

Oh it gets better.  Get somebody to explain away how he took a 6-year-old girl as his wife, and consumated the marriage when she was NINE!

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2005, 01:25:30 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
Similarly, the evolutionary paradigm requires that in order to sustain one's life, one must take from other beings.

Evolution stipulates no such thing. The world may have come to be full of predators and parasites, but do not mistake the product for the process. What you're effectively saying is that, because you have seen a No. 9 Twinkie assembly line, all assembly lines produce No. 9 Twinkies. This of course is a logical fallacy. Likewise, simply because the world turned out to have predators and parasites does not mean that the exploitation of other living organisms, to their detriment, is a fundamental property of all life. Such a premise is patently false even in our world, let alone the realm of possible worlds.

Eriol

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« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2005, 01:47:36 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Hadriel
Similarly, the evolutionary paradigm requires that in order to sustain one's life, one must take from other beings.

Evolution stipulates no such thing. The world may have come to be full of predators and parasites, but do not mistake the product for the process. What you're effectively saying is that, because you have seen a No. 9 Twinkie assembly line, all assembly lines produce No. 9 Twinkies. This of course is a logical fallacy. Likewise, simply because the world turned out to have predators and parasites does not mean that the exploitation of other living organisms, to their detriment, is a fundamental property of all life. Such a premise is patently false even in our world, let alone the realm of possible worlds.

Perhaps not with the predator/prey paradigm, but rather with the competition for limited resources.  Scarcity is hardly limited to only human environments, and in fact exists even for things that produce their own food, like photosynthesizing plants.  Even those compete for things like light, water, etc, so while the strict "taking another's life" is not necessarily present by direct means, it is arguable that it DOES exist through competition letting another die due to taking what both need, and one getting it instead of the other.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2005, 01:59:22 pm »
Quote from: Eriol
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Hadriel
Similarly, the evolutionary paradigm requires that in order to sustain one's life, one must take from other beings.

Evolution stipulates no such thing. The world may have come to be full of predators and parasites, but do not mistake the product for the process. What you're effectively saying is that, because you have seen a No. 9 Twinkie assembly line, all assembly lines produce No. 9 Twinkies. This of course is a logical fallacy. Likewise, simply because the world turned out to have predators and parasites does not mean that the exploitation of other living organisms, to their detriment, is a fundamental property of all life. Such a premise is patently false even in our world, let alone the realm of possible worlds.

Perhaps not with the predator/prey paradigm, but rather with the competition for limited resources.  Scarcity is hardly limited to only human environments, and in fact exists even for things that produce their own food, like photosynthesizing plants.  Even those compete for things like light, water, etc, so while the strict "taking another's life" is not necessarily present by direct means, it is arguable that it DOES exist through competition letting another die due to taking what both need, and one getting it instead of the other.

The scarcity of resources as you describe it is a qualification as opposed to an inherent property of the evolutionary process. You are mistaking--as Hadriel did--two different phenomena as being one and the same. Evolution describes the variation of organisms' biology through successive generations. It has nothing to say about the alleged inherent detrimentality of living organisms with respect to one another.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2005, 02:27:34 pm »
I get the feeling that a lot of people's aversion to evolution theory is the result of their lack of understanding of the subject. I can imagine some pastor saying in his Sunday sermon that evolution is this horrible lie made up by the ACLU where humans evolved from monkeys. People buy into these oversimplistic and misleading remarks, and it's all downhill from there.

While you will find it to be true that evolution theory indeed discredits the concept of Young Earth Creationism, so too does just about every branch of science, including geology, physics, radiology, glaciology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, and so forth. Other than the sensitive nature of the subject matter, there's no logical reason to focus such disproportionate enmity onto the theory of evolution, unless one is prepared to reject and denounce a great deal of the sum of human knowledge.

If anything, this tells me that we need more exposure to evolution, especially in our schools. When people start understanding what evolution actually is, they will be better prepared--albeit not necessarily more willing--to overlook the caustic remarks of misguided religious figures. Evolution is extremely well-founded theory that has withstood over a century of academic scrutiny. It may not agree with certain religious conventions, but the scientific method cannot be disqualified simply for that. To assume otherwise strongly implies that religion considers itself flawlessly perfect.

Ironically, what I think we're seeing with organized religion over the past three centuries is another form of evolution--cultural evolution--which is rendering the old religious mythologies increasingly obsolete, thus giving rise to an intense antagonism between old ideas and new facts. If religions cannot evolve to embrace our greater understanding of the truth of this universe, then they shall go slowly extinct, just as is transpiring in much of the developed world.

This phenomenon, in my opinion, explains some of the motivation behind American Christianity's increasing hostility toward the parts of science that contradict whatever Christian teachings. But this is the unwarranted arrogance of religious devouts. Human knowledge shall continue to improve, and, as it does, we must sometimes change our minds to accept better truths than yesterday had to offer. If only religious folks could be secure enough about their faith to accept that nothing is inviolable, then perhaps they could focus their scrutiny upon their religious wisdom as well as the newfangled knowledge that contradicts it. Not only would that add health and life expectancy to the religion, but it would make for one less ridiculous social conflict in the world.

If you want a really simple, ten-minute read about evolution, look no further than Wikipedia. It won't take much of your time, but it makes for a nice starting point to get past the idea that it's an antireligious myth made up by ACLU-loving atheists.

Hadriel

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« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2005, 05:19:13 pm »
Evolution is indeed a process.  What I speak of is more like a byproduct of evolution, the competition for resources.  This of course does not equate to direct exploitation, but the net effect is largely the same; some have resources, others don't.  I never mistook the phenomena as being one and the same, for I do not make those kinds of mistakes.  It's a simple "if p, then q" line of thought.

Question here: why in all nine Corellian hells do they let people pass biology or geology class in colleges and still ardently believe in YEC?  For that matter, how did they get out of freshman-level math courses?

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2005, 06:52:59 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
Question here: why in all nine Corellian hells do they let people pass biology or geology class in colleges and still ardently believe in YEC?  For that matter, how did they get out of freshman-level math courses?

Kids are so bloody indifferent toward their education that sheer cluelessness outweighs any religious delusions they may be suffering. But the gradebook doesn't discriminate. Children pass biology because if they were held to more reasonable academic standards, many of them would die of old age before they'd pass the sixth grade.

Quote from: Hadriel
Evolution is indeed a process.  What I speak of is more like a byproduct of evolution, the competition for resources.  This of course does not equate to direct exploitation, but the net effect is largely the same; some have resources, others don't.  I never mistook the phenomena as being one and the same, for I do not make those kinds of mistakes.  It's a simple "if p, then q" line of thought.

Truly, evolution has nothing to do with the competition for resources. I wouldn't fabricate such an esoteric point. When organisms interact with one another, this interaction can be parasitic, it can be predatory, it can be symbiotic, it can be neutral...it can be any number of things. But that's not evolution. Evolution is natural selection, genetic drift, and so forth. It makes no predictions whatsoever about the behavior of interacting organisms. Evolution says that all species share a common ancestor. Evolution says that species will genetically diverge with time. All tested, all verified. But nowhere in the whole ball of wax is there a section that says "evolution will cause organisms to compete with each other for resources." That is a completely different subject.

If I may, I think you are mistaking natural selection to be the cause rather than the effect of environmental circumstance with regard to the behavior of organisms.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2005, 07:09:08 pm »
I am sternly against evolution as it stands, chiefly upon scientific grounds. I'm no YEC, as you would term it - after all, was not the one who theorized on the Big Bang a priest himself? - but I feel that the evidence for evolution is not very conclusive. I have heard several counter-arguments based in reason that seem to cause it difficulty. If it could be proven say, to the extent which Newton's Laws are, then I would be willing to accept it. But until such a day, I remain scientifically skeptical - indeed, I think the scientific maxim is if there exists reasonable doubt, the theory should be discarded, and no scientific theory can ever be known as fact. Agnosticism, uncertainty of knowledge, rather than knowledge, is the way of the scientist, after all. From the way I see it, evolution should be discarded - or, at least, its present for should be - based upon several reasons, which I will not go into (I think you know most of them, and since, knowing them, we have drawn our lines, it would be unavailing to simply repeat them.) I would not petition to have it removed - it is a scientific theory, after all, and should be addressed - but even if it is correct (which I doubt), I think it is much like the Dalton model of the atom was: an incomplete and only somewhat accurate representation of what will be later understood.

But here is the problem which I can plainly see. Creation is a faith-based theory; places of teaching have become based upon knowledge, or what we call knowledge, at least, and upon a certain system of attaining it. Now, I value both (perhaps the former a little more), but one cannot, by the dictates of the system of attainting knowledge (that is, theory and refutation), prove anything about God or faith. This leads to a rather awkward moment in teaching Creationism alongside such things as Newton's laws. It lacks provability and, more importantly, lacks disprovability. So what remains? We have to have SOME theory, right? Thus we have evolution. As I said, I don't consider it right, or that it works but, as things stand, it's be best we have from a scientific perspective. As much as I side with Creationism, I know that it cannot be taught in a scientific setting. The only thing I would admonish to evolutionists is not to consider their theory fact - that goes against the idea of attempting to disprove theories, and leads to scientific stagnation. They should be trying at every turn to disprove it, and see if it holds up. It can still be taught until such a time as a better one comes along, but it must be treated as a theory only to remain scientific.

A question to Hadriel: does Correllian myth have 9 hells in actuality, or were you just making that up?

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2005, 09:55:45 pm »
You make an error in your description of Newton's Laws in your comparison. You see, Newton's Laws, are wrong. I'll clarify. At the scope at which we exist, Newton's Laws are "good enough", but while dealing in quantuum or relatavistic frames, they're completely worthless.

A question about your disbelief on evolution: Are you refering to the process of evolution, or the origin of life? A lot of people mix the two together, when in reality, they have nothing at all to do with each other. Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life got here, just the manner in which it has changed since it did.

Hadriel

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« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2005, 10:07:47 pm »
Honestly, I don't know.  All I know is that Han, Wedge, and other Corellians use the phrase a lot, so it might very well be true.  It's almost certainly a reference to the Divine Comedy.  Corellian culture, being predominantly human, contains some references to our own.  There's an old Corellian play called Uhl Eharl Khoenhg, or in our tongue, The Trickster King.  It's about a medieval-era king similar to Macbeth in terms of despotism.  Basically, he hears of a kingdom inside a forest that possesses immense power, and sends delegates to meet with its representatives.  The king's men never return.  Gradually, he sends more and more people there, and arouses greater and greater resentment in his kingdom.  Eventually, there are no more people but the king, so finally he goes in there and discovers that the people have been turning into the trees that make up the forest.  Oops.

The thing about Newton's laws of motion and macroscopic-level mechanics is that it only works in those situations.  It's another occurrence of "if p, then q."  We see microevolution every day, but from a practical point of view, that's all most people are ever exposed to.

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« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2005, 10:10:41 pm »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
You make an error in your description of Newton's Laws in your comparison. You see, Newton's Laws, are wrong. I'll clarify. At the scope at which we exist, Newton's Laws are "good enough", but while dealing in quantuum or relatavistic frames, they're completely worthless.

A question about your disbelief on evolution: Are you refering to the process of evolution, or the origin of life? A lot of people mix the two together, when in reality, they have nothing at all to do with each other. Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life got here, just the manner in which it has changed since it did.


True on both accounts. For the former, I was somewhat aware of that, but I simply meant that Newton's laws can be treated in a scientific manner, whereas faith cannot be. For the latter, I believe in neither, based upon what I have thus far learned. In what I have seen, evolution cannot explain most especially how life began, but also cannot conclusively explain the change in life-forms. That is not to say things cannot adapt - they most surely do - but rather that large scale evolution, if it were to occur, would likely take longer than it has. And neither can it explain why certain creatures have not apparently evolved, whilst others have. Nor can it explain that thousands of missing links between different stages of evolution. Should we not have at least one example of a smooth transition, or at least of several inbetween steps? Rather, we are treated to rather dramatic disparities. The closest we have to a smooth evolution is humanity, and even there there are so called missing links. Well, until those are found, I will be skeptical that they exist.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2005, 11:45:42 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
You make an error in your description of Newton's Laws in your comparison. You see, Newton's Laws, are wrong. I'll clarify. At the scope at which we exist, Newton's Laws are "good enough", but while dealing in quantuum or relatavistic frames, they're completely worthless.

A question about your disbelief on evolution: Are you refering to the process of evolution, or the origin of life? A lot of people mix the two together, when in reality, they have nothing at all to do with each other. Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life got here, just the manner in which it has changed since it did.


True on both accounts. For the former, I was somewhat aware of that, but I simply meant that Newton's laws can be treated in a scientific manner, whereas faith cannot be. For the latter, I believe in neither, based upon what I have thus far learned. In what I have seen, evolution cannot explain most especially how life began, but also cannot conclusively explain the change in life-forms. That is not to say things cannot adapt - they most surely do - but rather that large scale evolution, if it were to occur, would likely take longer than it has. And neither can it explain why certain creatures have not apparently evolved, whilst others have. Nor can it explain that thousands of missing links between different stages of evolution. Should we not have at least one example of a smooth transition, or at least of several inbetween steps? Rather, we are treated to rather dramatic disparities. The closest we have to a smooth evolution is humanity, and even there there are so called missing links. Well, until those are found, I will be skeptical that they exist.


I'd like to take a moment to clear something up here. The reason that evolution can't explain how life got here is that it doesn't attempt to. Evolution takes for granted the existance of life. So to say you are skeptical about evolution because it fails to explain how life originated is silly; it's like comparing apples and oranges. Some theories on the origin of life that you may wish to look into are abiogenesis and panspermia.

The "missing link" is a strawman. Not every creature that has died left a fossil, nor is every mutation evident on the skeleton. There are transitional forms:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

I'm having a little trouble finding the essay that deals with that claim specifically, but if I find it later I'll edit it in. You'll never find a perfectly smooth transition, because you'll never find the fossils of every species that has lived. Also, there is the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium, which propses that evolution occurs mostly in large bursts.  

I don't know how to even begin addressing your claim of animals that have apparently not evolved. Could you please clarify that comment?

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« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2005, 12:15:18 am »
Don't worry yourself. I've looked at the issue before and, for the time being, taken my stance. I fear it would simply be a waste of your efforts.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2005, 01:40:51 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
The only thing I would admonish to evolutionists is not to consider their theory fact - that goes against the idea of attempting to disprove theories, and leads to scientific stagnation. They should be trying at every turn to disprove it, and see if it holds up. It can still be taught until such a time as a better one comes along, but it must be treated as a theory only to remain scientific.

I think this is the biggest problem. Many people who dispute evolution theory on religious grounds are fated to misunderstand the mindset of those who subscribe to it. These folks think in their own language, the language of a religious worldview, whose ways are all so very foreign to the culture of science, and this bias instills in them a great many misperceptions. Only creationists call people “evolutionists.” Their worldview is ill-suited for them to wrap their minds around the scientific point of view, so instead they speak in the language that they know. But the fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as an “evolutionist.” Evolution is not a life philosophy, nor is it an object of worship, or fanatical devotion. It is an admittedly provocative theory, but one that is well-supported in explaining the change in species. It is settled science.

Religious fundamentalists look at “settled science” and see an absolutist, fanatical devotion, which leads to words like “evolutionism.” At the very least, they see the subscription to scientific knowledge as a sort of religious act. Many do this with gleeful hostility, but other, well-meaning Christians—such as our Daniel Krispin here—are respectful of the culture of science, and try to word their thinking in the native tongue of science. Yet well-meaning or not, there is an immense cultural divide here, because those whose minds are structured around the principles of religion are severely constrained when it comes to comprehending the culture of science. Not only does religious faith inhibit people’s ability to perceive the world more naturally, but it also closes people’s minds to ideas they perceive as a threat to their religious worldview, which, highly fantastical and subject to the cold whims of reality, must remain scrupulously sheltered if it is to be kept unchanging.

Science begins in the world of fact. Our world intrigues us. We are ignorant but we seek to know. And while there are many ways to piece together this grand mosaic, only a few are factually consistent. We are greatly aided by this consistency, for it is the way of science not to create fantasy, but to discover reality. The mosaic is our universe, and it is already perfectly arranged in accordance with itself. Our image of the mosaic strives toward this perfect reality. Science is the agency by which we strive.

As such, the principal enemy of science is false knowledge, and this is reflected in the elemental concept of scientific skepticism. Fatalistically, skepticism means we’ll never be sure that what we know is true, and this is generally how the concept is understood amongst the lay public. But science is not in the business of fatalism. The lesson of skepticism is to not assume more than one has tested, in greater detail than has been measured, beyond the limitations of the experiment. When applied practically, this shows us that true certainty is an elusive feat.

But in the language of religion, the lack of certainty is a damning liability. “Not certain” becomes “uncertain.” “Uncertain” becomes “unproven.” “Unproven” becomes “tentative.” “Tentative” becomes “speculative.” “Speculative” becomes “conjectural.” And suddenly we’re dealing in unsubstantiated conjecture. This is the pejorative that is intended when a religious detractor of something like evolution calls it “just a theory.” Their religious worldview has no basis for discriminating between a subscription to scientific knowledge and an act of religious belief. The religious rationale is that the faithful will believe, and belief is a product of conviction. They assume science works the same way. But in science, there’s no such thing as “belief.” Instead of thinking of scientific subscription as “the faithful will believe,” it’s really exactly the opposite of that: The facts will persuade.

Evolution is universally accepted as settled science because the facts persuade anyone who considers them with an open mind and a comprehension of the subject matter. The theory of evolution has undergone over a hundred years of academic scrutiny, and has emerged even stronger for it. It began as a “what else could it be” theory based on bizarre morphological observations in exotic environments. But in time the common ancestry predicted by the theory was verified. In time the process of speciation likewise predicted was also verified. And evolution was greatly legitimized by the separate discovery of genes and the rise of genetic science, providing a malleable basic unit to account for the characteristics of living organisms. The theory’s years of contention have passed; its core precepts remain intact; and there are no remaining points of contention. All the interesting developments in evolutionary biology are happening on the frontiers, building upon what has already been learned. And while evolution may certainly be false in part or in its entirety, there is no proof today to indicate that, and no legitimate scientific dispute. Any external controversy is meaningless; science operates on its own internal logic, which is the scientific method. The ivory tower is persuaded.

Yet the religious mindset is beset with handicaps in understanding what this signifies. Religious folks look at the settled science and they see scientists as having become arrogant. They reason, as Daniel has, that if a theory is not continually doubted, science will stagnate. The true meaning of skepticism is lost on them; the best analog their jaded worldview can accommodate is something that I might call “faith-based mistrust,” wherein any knowledge must be continually doubted, not because of some physical reason to call the veracity of said knowledge into question, but simply because faith requires the mistrust inherently…perhaps because it is knowledge of human certification, and therefore, by their standards, deeply flawed. But the idea of mistrust for mistrust’s sake has little relevance in the scientific community, and is in opposition to the true nature of skepticism. The skeptic’s recourse is to bring more knowledge to the table.

The only reason evolution gets so much attention is because religious fundamentalists have gone to war against it. There are no altars in the halls of the ivory tower, and anyone who believes in science is missing the point. Faith and religion like to set themselves up as antagonistic opposites of science, but this yin-yang isn’t real. Science would just as soon not be bothered by the religious fantasy world…yet religion is adamant in opposing scientific progress that (unintentionally) grates upon people’s religious sensibilities. Science makes the discovery that “Golly, once upon a time we were single-celled organisms,” and religion mistakes it for an act of aggression. Outside the ivory tower is a very strange world indeed, one not governed by truth but by perception. By misperception.

The most scathing rebuke of the theory of evolution upon narrow-minded religious fundamentalists is that evolution is settled science. It fits the facts extremely well. Its predictions are corroborated by experimentation and observation. Like a Riemann sum approaching a smooth curve, evolution continues to become more precise and better understood as our discoveries and advances in multiple fields of evolutionary biology and related sciences continue unabated, from genome mapping to fossil digs. We can’t call it true; that would be more of a religious way of looking at it. Instead let the final word in the matter of evolution be that to which science ever aspires: persuasive.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
In what I have seen, evolution cannot explain most especially how life began...

As Radical Dreamer pointed out, this is because evolution does not provide for the origins of life. Much like Hadriel and Eriol did earlier in this thread, you are associated evolution with statements it does not consider. It seems that people treat evolution as a blanket term for a much wider swath of biology than it legitimately addresses. In any case, there is no indictment of evolution here.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
…but also cannot conclusively explain the change in life-forms.

Evolution explains exactly this. You have summarized the entire field of evolutionary biology into a single phrase. Such a broad dismissal is audacious to be sure, but unsubstantiated to be equally sure. You are free to pleasure yourself to your heart’s content with these sentiments of denial, but on their own they carry no weight in any academic forum.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
That is not to say things cannot adapt - they most surely do - but rather that large scale evolution, if it were to occur, would likely take longer than it has.

Your intuition tells you that over three billion years of evolution is insufficiently long to account for today’s biological diversity. All right. We mustn’t disparage people for their intuition. But what, beyond intuition, convinces you of this? What knowledge can you produce to authenticate your hunch?

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
And neither can it explain why certain creatures have not apparently evolved, whilst others have.

Ah, but here is a point of contention that is easily put to rest! I’m sure you will appreciate this simple clarification, so that your rejection of the theory of evolution can move on to its more serious points. As it so happens to be, one of the most important conclusions of evolution is that species tend to adapt to their environment. “Adaptation” in this case implies a change in the optimal survival configuration. And as you can certainly imagine, if this optimal configuration does not change, then a given species will have a relatively muted external pressure to evolve. This tempers the natural selection process, and thus slows evolution.

Yet, what is optimal for some species may not matter to others. The environment exerts different pressures on different species at the same time. Suppose the Earth entered a wet period and it rained a great deal more. This would have been disastrous for the prairie-dwelling wicked witches. Thus, if the wicked witches survive, we can conclude they must have found a way to avoid melting. Perhaps a genetic mutation made a witch water resistant at some point. Or perhaps some of the witches migrated to drier areas. Or maybe they entered into a symbiotic partnership with the umbrella people. Any combination of these is possible, but in every case what we have is discernable evolution, owing to natural selection brought on by environmental pressures. And yet the rainier era would have had a much more benign impact on the good faeries. They would have faced no such pressure to evolve. And so they would have remained much the same. Once again, the witches get the short end of the broomstick. O, what a world!

So you can see how different species can evolve at different rates simultaneously. And yet there are other factors to take into consideration, too. There are periods in geologic history when it as though all the species of the world suddenly lurched into a great period of evolution. Does this disprove evolution? Hardly! This is predicted by evolutionary theory. Insomuch as a species’ evolution is guided by its environmental circumstances, and that the environment itself is varied and not regular, we can expect environmental changes to have a direct impact on the evolution of species. Everything from ice ages to asteroid strikes can drastically change the optimal survival configuration for a great many species. But more frequent than those are the more relatively minor changes to the environment, which for whatever reason cause a sort of butterfly effect—say, at the bottom of the food chain—simply because the denizens of the biosphere are so deeply interrelated into the same uncertain song. That’s how the biosphere is…you can poke and prod it in one place and nothing will change, but so much as tap it on a tender spot, and everything comes flying apart…and the world changes.

So what we have are long periods in geologic history where evolution plods along because the biosphere is mostly stable, punctuated by periods of realignment, and the occasional super-disaster. Alongside this, we have different species evolving at different rates at the same time. All in all, evolution correctly predicts that species tend to adapt to their environment. Your mistake, I gather, is that you neglected to consider that the environment is no mere metronome, but a pulsating, erratic entity.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Nor can it explain that thousands of missing links between different stages of evolution.

Here you are providing a weaker contention. This observation is not contradictory evidence to the theory of evolution so much as a lack of corroborating evidence. Nevertheless, the contention is still somewhat valid. A lack of compelling evidence does not a theory make, after all. So, let’s put aside for the moment the fact that evolution has reams and gobs of supporting evidence, and just focus on this.

You mention “thousands of missing links,” which I gather to be directed at the fossil record—although please correct me if you were referring to some other kind of chain. Due to the rarity of conditions that lead to the making and preservation of fossils, and due to the statistical likelihood that speciation occurs in small populations during geologically short periods of time, transitions between species are uncommon in the fossil record. You can get five million years of some lizard, and then suddenly it’s not there anymore. Now you’ve got this different lizard arriving on the scene shortly thereafter, but the two are dissimilar enough that you’ve grounds to believe there is a missing link between them. What has happened is that the evolution occurred so quickly that, given the low survival rates of fossil remnants, none have made it into the modern era.

You see, the reason species tend to evolve in fast spurts is that the intermediary stages are necessarily unstable—or else they wouldn’t have remained intermediary. You change one little gene on an animal, and suddenly everything gets thrown out of whack. This has ramifications in the environment among those species who are related to this animal in some way. And voila, you get that butterfly effect again. Eventually the whole works stabilizes, because the unstable points are arrived at and soon left behind, but stable points brook no further progression, and thus are a great moderating influence.

However, this is not to say that speciation is not well-documented. It just isn’t as well-documented as the much longer eras of history where evolution progressed much more slowly. For instance, here is the fossil record of the evolution of the horse…which I remember seeing in pictures in a textbook long ago:
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So here's the summary of the horse sequence. For more info, see the Horse Evolution FAQ.

    * Loxolophus (early Paleocene) -- A primitive condylarth with rather low-crowned molars, probably ancestral to the phenacodontid condylarths.
    * Tetraclaenodon (mid-Paleocene) -- A more advanced Paleocene condylarth from the phenacodontid family, and almost certainly ancestral to all the perissodactyls (a different order). Long but unspecialized limbs; 5 toes on each foot (#1 and #5 smaller). Slightly more efficient wrist.

GAP: There are almost no known perissodactyl fossils from the late Paleocene. This is actually a small gap; it's only noticeable because the perissodactyl record is otherwise very complete. Recent discoveries have made clear that the first perissodactyls arose in Asia (a poorly studied continent), so hopefully the ongoing new fossil hunts in Asia will fill this small but frustrating gap. The first clue has already come in:

    * Radinskya yupingae (late Paleocene, China) -- A recently discovered perissodactyl-like condylarth. (McKenna et al., in Prothero & Schoch, 1989.)
    * Hyracotherium (early Eocene, about 55 Ma; previously "Eohippus") -- The famous "dawn horse", a small, doggish perissodactyl, with an arched back, short neck, omnivore teeth, and short snout. 4 toes in front and 3 behind. Compared to Tetraclaenodon, has longer toes, interlocking ankle bones, and slightly different tooth cusps. Probably evolved from Tetra. in about 4-5 my, perhaps via an Asian species like Radinskya. Note that Hyrac. differed from other early perissodactyls (such as tapir/rhino ancestors) only by small changes in tooth cusps and in body size.
    * Hyracotherium vassacciense (early Eocene) -- The particular species that probably gave rise to the equids.
    * Orohippus (mid-Eocene, ~50 Ma) -- Small, 4/3 toed, developing browser tooth crests.
    * Epihippus (late Eocene, ~45 Ma) -- Small, 4/3 toed, good tooth crests, browser.
    * Epihippus (Duchesnehippus) -- A later subgenus with Mesohippus-like teeth.
    * Mesohippus celer (latest Eocene, 40 Ma) -- Three-toed on all feet, browser, slightly larger
    * Mesohippus westoni (early Oligocene) -- A slightly later, more advanced species.
    * Miohippus assiniboiensis (mid-Oligocene) -- This species split off from early Mesohippus via cladogenetic evolution, after which Miohippus and Mesohippus overlapped for the next 4 my. Distinctly larger, slightly longer skull, facial fossa deeper and more expanded, subtly different ankle joint, variable extra crest on upper cheek teeth. In the early Miocene (24 My) Miohippus began to speciate rapidly. Grasses had just evolved, & teeth began to change accordingly. Legs, etc., started to change for fast running.
    * Kalobatippus (late Oligocene) -- Three-toed browser w/foot intermediate between Mio. & Para.
    * Parahippus (early Miocene, 23 Ma) -- Three-toed browser/grazer, developing "spring foot". Permanent establishment of the extra crest that was so variable in Miohippus. Stronger tooth crests & slightly taller tooth crowns.
    * 'Parahippus' leonensis (mid-Miocene, ~20 Ma) -- Three-toed browser/grazer with the emphasis on grazer. Developing spring-foot & high-crowned teeth.
    * 'Merychippus' gunteri (mid-Miocene, ~18 Ma) -- Three-toed grazer, fully spring-footed with high-crowned teeth.
    * Merychippus primus (mid-Miocene, ~17 Ma) -- Slightly more advanced.
    * Merychippus spp. of mid-late Miocene (16-15 Ma) -- 3-toed grazers, spring-footed, size of small pony. Diversified into all available grazer niches, giving rise to at least 19 successful three-toed grazers. Side toes of varying sizes, very small in some lines. Horsey hoof develops, leg bones fuse. Fully high-crowned teeth with thick cement & same crests as Parahippus. The line that eventually produced Equus developed as follows: M. primus, M. sejunctus, M. isonesus (these last two still had a mix of primitive, hipparion, and equine features), M. intermontanus, M. stylodontus, M. carrizoensis. These last two looked quite horsey, with quite small side toes, and gave rise to a set of larger three-toed and one-toed horses known as the "true equines". Crystal clear, right?

SMALL GAP: It is not known which Merychippus species (stylodontus? carrizoensis?) gave rise to the first Dinohippus species (Evander, in Prothero & S 1988).

    * Dinohippus (late Miocene, 12 Ma) -- One-toed grazer, spring-footed. Very equine feet, teeth, and skull, with straighter teeth & smaller fossae. First was D. spectans, followed by D. interpolatus and D. leidyanus. A slightly later species was D. mexicanus, with even straighter teeth and even smaller fossae.
    * Equus (Plesippus), also called the "E. simplicidens" group (Pliocene, ~4 My) -- Three closely related species of one-toed spring-footed high-crowned grazers. No fossae and very straight teeth. Pony size, fully "horsey" body -- rigid spine, long neck, long legs, fused leg bones with no rotation, long nose, flexible muzzle, deep jaw. The brain was a bit larger than in early Dinohippus. Still had some primitive traits such as simple teeth & slight facial fossae, which later Equus species lost. These "simple Equus" species quickly diversified into at least 12 new species in 4 different groups. During the first major glaciations of the late Pliocene (2.6 Ma), certain Equus species crossed to the Old World. Worldwide, Equus took over the niche of "large coarse-grazing plains runner".
    * Equus (Hippotigris) (Pleistocene) -- Subgenus of modern 1-toed spring-footed grazing zebras.
    * Equus (Equus) (Pleistocene) -- Subgenus of modern 1-toed spring-footed grazing horses & donkeys. (note: very rarely a horse is born with small side toes, indicating that some horses retain the genes for side toes.)

And of course that’s the biological history of just one of today’s living organisms. Gaps in the fossil record? Sure. But we’re talking about the sorts of gaps like 1 2 3 4 5 _ 7 8 9. The fossil record on the whole has been greatly helpful to the verification of evolution. Those who look at the fossils but see only the gaps are being selective, which is very unscientific and not at all befitting a man of your ostensible respect for the institution of science.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Should we not have at least one example of a smooth transition, or at least of several inbetween steps?

Perhaps, like the evolution of the horse, eh? =P

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Well, until those are found, I will be skeptical that they exist.

There are others, too.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Don't worry yourself. I've looked at the issue before and, for the time being, taken my stance. I fear it would simply be a waste of your efforts.

Oh.

You know, that’s the problem with religious folks. Their respect for science goes out the window when the science becomes inconvenient. You’ve “looked at the issue before.” Yet all your listed complaints against evolution are either unsubstantiated, incorrect, or are not actually complaints at all. Pray, then, in what regard have you “looked at the issue before”? I picture you casually brushing your evolution biology textbook to the side after hardly cracking open the first page. It cannot be that it bored you, can it? So I can only assume it contradicted your religious convictions.

You have “looked at the issue before.” What an anti-intellectual remark! Your only redeeming qualities, Daniel, are your intellectual stylings—your politeness and your respect for others’ points of view. Yet these things seem more shallow than I might have thought. Considering your attitudes on women, I shouldn’t be surprised…but I am disappointed. I suppose I did waste a good deal of my time and efforts.

Science will never persuade one whose mind is made up.