Author Topic: Did crono die when porre attacked  (Read 38099 times)

Zaperking

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #195 on: August 11, 2005, 06:29:19 pm »
Heavenly magic doens't mean it has anything to do with Heaven and goodness. Either does Shadow have to do with evil. It is simply implied by us. Like Spekkio said, they are needed in balance. But from what we see in the game, and how Spekkio reacts to Magus and stuff, it is plausable that Shadow is created by the effects of the other 3. Oh and if you haven't noticed, When Fire and Water mix, they cause steam.. Which is wind... But the effect of it's magic makes it Shadow, since we can see the dark patterns in the spell. Luminair is a spell that can be equalled to Dark Matter, Lucca's area magma bomb and Frog's Frog Drop spell. They are the ultimate of their innate.

And also, since Zealians most likely had Shadow magic (which in our theory is comprised of the other magics) their power would also stretch using Lightning/Fire/Water.
And because Spekkio could only tap into one type of magic for each, Crono,Marle,Lucca and Frog only got one innate. And isn't it a coincidence that none of them are Shadow?

Also, in Kajar, opening the books, there is no Shadow book. But once you open the door, Oo look. There is a "Black Rock" used to create a Shadow triple tech.

AuraTwilight

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #196 on: August 12, 2005, 12:33:04 am »
MISSSSSSSSSSSSED my point.

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Heavenly magic doens't mean it has anything to do with Heaven and goodness.


Doesn't mean it doesn't. If the four elements in Trigger balance everything, Heaven and goodness SHOULD be equated with Heaven.

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But from what we see in the game, and how Spekkio reacts to Magus and stuff, it is plausable that Shadow is created by the effects of the other 3.


Of course! It must be his innate! Can't have anything to do with his being the most powerful wizard in the world and the prince of the lost Magical Kingdom. NOPE!

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Oh and if you haven't noticed, When Fire and Water mix, they cause steam.. Which is wind... But the effect of it's magic makes it Shadow, since we can see the dark patterns in the spell.


No shit, genius. However, my post was about SYMBOLISM! Leave the physics at home.

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Luminair is a spell that can be equalled to Dark Matter, Lucca's area magma bomb and Frog's Frog Drop spell. They are the ultimate of their innate.


irrelevent.

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And isn't it a coincidence that none of them are Shadow?


Isn't it a coincidence that Marle and Frog both have Water? Man, Frog really DID marry Leene! LOL the Frog/Leene ending is DEH CANON!!111

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Also, in Kajar, opening the books, there is no Shadow book. But once you open the door, Oo look. There is a "Black Rock" used to create a Shadow triple tech.


Close, but not quite. There's no lightning book either. Just wind. And it has nothing to do with the elemental balance. An NPC explains it.

"Life comes from Water, which cultivates the Air, which feeds the Fire, which unveils the secrets of the universe."

pwned.

Zaperking

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #197 on: August 12, 2005, 03:14:45 am »
Whats up your ass.

That wind represents Lightning. When Crono is blessed with magic, that wind effect is placed on him and he gains lightning.

And I don't remember that quote. Wasn't it more like Water created wind, wind makes fire dance.

But if your statement was true, then "the secrets of the universe" is Shadow magic respectfully, as the universe is pretty much 99% dark matter.

Oh, and I'm never irrelevant in my posts. Someone stated that there was no difference in Luminaire and Dark Matter, as they are the most powerful spells. My point was to point out that Frog Drop and Magma bomb are also ultimate spells of their innate. So there is really no Luminaire vs Dark Matter = Good vs Evil. You could do Luminiare vs Magma bomb or Frog Drop or whatever, they are simply there to balance out nature, and from game evidance, Shadow is created by the other powers, or was acctually seperated from Shadow.

As in from Shadow- Lightning, Water and Fire magic spread out. Only Magus, Zeal,  Schala still possess that power, and the Zealians turned to Lavoid magic which was simply from his power source.

Now stop being rude on the internet. Failing to have a social life doesn't mean acting all 1337 on the internet will make you big or whatever you think.

V_Translanka

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #198 on: August 12, 2005, 06:09:08 am »
Uh, neither Mega Bomb nor Frog Drop are either Elements respective ultimate spells...Especially since neither of them are Magic...

Lightning - Luminaire
Fire - Flare
Water - Hexagon Mist
Shadow - Dark Matter

Also, why/how is steam wind? Especially when you then state that the wind represents Crono's Heavenly/Lightning Element?

Oh, and although it seems that AuraTwilight was being a lil rash (it didn't seem as though Zaperking's post was directed at Aura...), I didn't really think Aura was being rude at all...Just making different points & stuffs.

Zaperking

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #199 on: August 12, 2005, 06:30:47 am »
Kk, Thanks for the spell list. I had forgotten the names. ^.^

Anyway, I was talking about Steam in real physics lol, in our world.

The Wind element effect represents Crono's power and the whole Lightning consept in the game.

V_Translanka

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #200 on: August 12, 2005, 07:30:12 am »
Well, if you're talking about "real life" physics...then I still don't understand calling it "wind"...I suppose what you're looking for is gas?

AuraTwilight

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« Reply #201 on: August 12, 2005, 12:26:17 pm »
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That wind represents Lightning. When Crono is blessed with magic, that wind effect is placed on him and he gains lightning.


Ok, sure. fine.

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And I don't remember that quote. Wasn't it more like Water created wind, wind makes fire dance.


Oh yea. Either way, it doesn't get lightning or shadow in there, so it's a different system that the Balance, I guess.

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But if your statement was true, then "the secrets of the universe" is Shadow magic respectfully, as the universe is pretty much 99% dark matter.


when I wrote that quote, I was thinking things like science >_>

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Someone stated that there was no difference in Luminaire and Dark Matter, as they are the most powerful spells. My point was to point out that Frog Drop and Magma bomb are also ultimate spells of their innate. So there is really no Luminaire vs Dark Matter = Good vs Evil.


But the good vs evil (SYMBOLISM) can still work.

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Shadow is created by the other powers, or was acctually seperated from Shadow.


That's ridiculous, then there's no balance. By that logic, just dump the whole system and go with the CC magic system.

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Anyway, I was talking about Steam in real physics lol, in our world.


Indeed, leave that in the real world, we're discussing magic. You're the one who brought up the Antipode thing, which is Shadow. Don't jump around.

V_Translanka

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #202 on: August 12, 2005, 01:29:54 pm »
While trying to look for Spekkio's spheel (which turns out there wasn't one) on Shadow Magic, I found this...

Quote from: Spekkio
  You've got great strength, however,
   since I can't measure your inner
   character, I can't give any magic to
   you.


It seems that Magic Elements are determined by people's inner characters O_o

Quote from: Spekkio
What a weird fellow.
   Being a frog, let's give him Water!


Also odd, it seems as though Frog then just gets Water because he's a frog...

AuraTwilight

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #203 on: August 12, 2005, 06:11:23 pm »
Frog: Fuck you, Spekkio.

Seriously though, Frog got screwed. I'm not surprised though. A similiar thing happened to Serge. He's a White Innate, but when in Lynx's body, he was stuck with Black. And yea, I did remember having a short discussion on this board about what Schala's Innate would be if she had one. Someone said Red because she's genetically identical to Kid. We debunked it with personality.

Oswego del Fuego

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #204 on: August 12, 2005, 07:21:56 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
And yea, I did remember having a short discussion on this board about what Schala's Innate would be if she had one. Someone said Red because she's genetically identical to Kid. We debunked it with personality.


Shoot, you don't even have to go that far.  Harle is Kid's genetic twin, and she's black to Kid's red.

I tend to think Schala's "color" would be white and her element would be Shadow.

OdF

SilentMartyr

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #205 on: August 13, 2005, 05:01:22 pm »
CC innate is different than CT element, stop trying to combine the two. Like Spekkio said CT element is determined by inner character, but he never explains the reasoning behind his choices, besdies Frog.

I don't see the books as a reference to magic. Think about it normally, without water you can not have wind, and without wind fire can not exist. It is that simple.

Shadow is just as powerful as heaven, fire, or water. If Magus had been a happy wizard who wasn't so emo then this unfounded belief would have never existed.

Daniel Krispin

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #206 on: August 13, 2005, 05:30:16 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
I don't see the books as a reference to magic. Think about it normally, without water you can not have wind, and without wind fire can not exist. It is that simple.


Actually, it's yet simpler I should think. What's written in that book is probably some old, or maybe earthbound, writing or poetry. It's not some concrete book of science or magic. All it implies is that, to observation, wind and the waves are connected, which may simply be an echo of old superstition. And the fire is yet easier: it does not say anything about the connection between wind and fire, merely that one makes the other dance. It is imagry, pure and simple. Some scholar at Zeal likely thought it a quaint thing and used it as the key to the secret room.

In all reason, though, CT is working on fragmented and mingled western/eastern philosophies, and CC attempts to reconcile it all to some extent. Fire, Water, Earth, Air... that is called the Aristotilian world-view (different than our one now, which I suppose could be called Democritian.) CT took that standard, and often cliched array, and turned it about a little. They kept fire and water, but made Earth deeper, and Air higher. In some respect, if you think about it, even in the Greek view, who owns the earth - and by that I mean under the earth, not upon it. It is Hades, a very shadowy lord. And what of the airs? Those, if you expand upon them, reach to the heavens. Thus Heavenly/Lightning is a glorified 'Air' and Shadow a glorified 'Earth'. Also, ideas of Heavenly and Shadow likely tie more into Eastern philosophies. This also, likely, accounts for Shadow being a mixture of the other three, rather than an equal of the other four constitutive elements, as it would be in the west. Now, CC attempts to change this a little. It removes Heavenly and Shadow from the four, giving them pre-eminent places apart. The four now are the standard Aristotilian elements: Red for Fire, Blue for Water, Yellow for Earth, and Green for Air... with some allowances, admittedly. White and Black are now set apart, more powerful than these, or at least unique - neither has a 'field' element, for example, and they are each representative of the most powerful warring sides... though not neccessarially as one might think. Serge, Fate, Lynx, and the Time Devourer, are all white/black, though Serge is both white and black, and the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil. So Chrono Cross is perhaps the fulfilment of what is shown in Chrono Trigger, replacing the two missing elements.

Another theory on the matter, however, is that Green and Yellow are rather a mingling of the old four.

Now through all of this, I am inclined to think that, intent wise, there is no actual good or evil attached to black or white, Lightning or Shadow. They are just opposites. This is not like the Force, with a Light and Dark side, and one cannot be tempted by Shadow (different from the shadows) any more than by Lightning. Both are symbols of power, and both can be used evilly. However, it seems to be that Shadow is a little more difficult to use, more secretive and, if the quote about it being a mingling of the other three is right, extremely rare. Thus it may be thought that only those that study for a long time, or are born apart, can make use of these, and often these unique or secritive people are themselves evil. Thus it is by parallell, but not by cause, that a Shadow innate might be evil. After all, one must remember that Magus was Shadow innate and, while grim and morose in his youth, he had commited no grave atrocities so as to label him evil. It likely works like the old system of Humours, where an excess of Melecholy Humour made one, well, melencholy and morose. Bile, and and the like had other effects, and by this the middle ages people attributed tempers to people. An excess of one put one out of balance, and gave them a temper far to one side. This magic system is likely of a similar sort. Thus a Shadow innate may be grim and sullen, a Lighning innate more bright and cheerful and prone to heroics, a Fire innate quite-tempered, and so forth. It may then lend greater influence to a certain good or evil side, but by no means precludes a single allegiance.

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #207 on: August 13, 2005, 05:41:32 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil.


I thought that because Lavos isn't from earth, he has no color innate. TD has no defined innate (He changes them throughout the battle, but starts and ends it with White... But that's just for the sake of the Yellow-Red-Green-Blue-Black-White pattern). That leaves Schala, who's white Innate, I suppose, to decide what Innate the fusion will bear. Lavos has no innate, DG has no defined Innate.

Think of it like an equation:

X=0+0+6

X=6

Assuming White is 6, of course. Meaning that from all the color innates he has, his natural one is white.

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #208 on: August 13, 2005, 05:42:11 pm »
Well since those secret rooms were made by Belthasar I would assume that since he was the scientific Guru that the implications of the order would have been scientifically produced.

Think about it like this, when you mix colors you will always eventually get brown. So when you mix magic in CT you will always get shadow. It isn't due to shadow being the supreme element. If anything it is to combat the majority of the group not having shadow attacks, a gameplay element that evolved into the storyline.

Oswego del Fuego

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Did crono die when porre attacked
« Reply #209 on: August 13, 2005, 06:59:02 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
CC innate is different than CT element, stop trying to combine the two.


No duh they're different.  That's not the point.  What you apparently don't realize is that, since Trigger and Cross do exist in the same world, each character has to be able to exist under either convention.  Hence, Trigger characters would have a "color" if transplanted into Cross, and vice versa.  That's all I'm saying.

I'll combine whatever I please, thank you very much.  :P

OdF