Was Lavos Trying to Shaft Itself?!

[Zenning]

Lavos's sentience is definitely a side topic to this discussion, so don't discount it.

People seem to equate "sentience" with "perfect," or perhaps, "all-knowing."

Dictionary.com definition: sentience: The quality or state of being conscious (which means you're physically/mentally/intellectually aware or have the potential of being aware).

The turn of events that includes the Frozen Flame splintering off of Lavos, followed by mankind's contact with the Frozen Flame thus making them intelligent, isn't proof of either sentience or insentience on Lavos's part.

Humans are sentient beings, yes? And we, as humans, make mistakes and are victims of irony, yes? E.g., we sometimes expect one thing to happen, and another thing happens in its stead.

I don't see Lavos's ejection of the Frozen Flame from its body, even if it wasn't intentional, as a grounds for justifying sentience or not. The Frozen Flame could just as easily have been ejected from Lavos's body even if Lavos was sentient. For all we know, Lavos could have been like, "Oh shit, I just lost a part of my body..." just as easily as it could have not been aware of the ejection of the Frozen Flame from its body.

Or perhaps, Lavos did intentionally eject it with the purpose of hoping that someone would retrieve it, and thus become his servant through the link that the Frozen Flame provides. My point is, the Frozen Flame could have been ejected from Lavos's body if Lavos was sentient or insentient, whether it was intended or not. Intention and sentience are two separate things.

Either way, one way or another, humans got their hands on the Frozen Flame, became intelligent, and eventually saw Lavos as being a power source they could feed off of.

For one thing, insentient beings can't produce sentient offspring. Clearly, for humans to gain intelligence from something like the Frozen Flame would mean that the Frozen Flame is itself sentient, and if the Frozen Flame is sentient, the source from which it came, Lavos, would have to be sentient, too.

As for humans feeding off of Lavos's power, parasiting the parasite if you will, offspring are capable of rebelling against, disrespecting, and defiling their parents, yes? And this is something that parents don't intend to happen, but nevertheless prepare for it.

Lavos never intended for humanity to feed off of it, as it certainly responds angrily to the Mammon Machine, and smites it appropriately; whether it also intended to destroy Zeal or not is debateable, but we can surmise that it certainly wanted to stop being fed  off of. Aww, Mommy Lavos doesn't like to breast feed...

Indeed, Lavos's awakenings are comparable (not in scale, but in the same sense) to a child poking their sleeping parent and thus incurring their wrath.

Lavos was still a "parent-in-training," and is only taking things as they go. Lavos really didn't take good precautions in disciplining his new servants, but like I've said already, it's not proof of insentience, as sentient parents can be just as incapable of disciplining offspring as insentient parents (not that insentient lifeforms really need to be disciplined, anyway...)

...

If Lavos indeed intended it, Lavos intended for the intelligence it passed down to be used to its own benefit. However, it didn't quite turn out that way, as humans tried to feed off of Lavos, and then, eventually destroy Lavos.

Indeed, my conclusion is that Lavos was an imperfect being, especially in the case of sentience, since things didn't turn out they way that it might've actually intended.

...

And, only as a sidenote, I see Lavos as being sentient. Jellyfish are insentient. Jellyfish don't have brains. Jellyfish aren't physically/mentally/intellectually aware. Jellyfish just float about, and eat only by catching things that unwittingly swim into their dregs. (In other words, the Jellyfish you encountered in the Jellyfish Sea/El Nido Triangle wasn't an actual Jellyfish, because it was indeed sentient, and aware of your attacks, and countered your attacks thusly).

Lavos is clearly no jellyfish in the aspect that Lavos is an active lifeform because it is aware, because it is sentient.

[Lord J Esq]

I have two grievances with your argument, Zenning. First, you ascribe a number of characteristics to Lavos that have no canonical basis in any of the games.

The Frozen Flame could just as easily have been ejected from Lavos's body even if Lavos was sentient. For all we know, Lavos could have been like, "Oh shit, I just lost a part of my body..." just as easily as it could have not been aware of the ejection of the Frozen Flame from its body.

Or perhaps, Lavos did intentionally eject it with the purpose of hoping that someone would retrieve it, and thus become his servant through the link that the Frozen Flame provides.

Lavos never intended for humanity to feed off of it, as it certainly responds angrily to the Mammon Machine, and smites it appropriately; whether it also intended to destroy Zeal or not is debateable, but we can surmise that it certainly wanted to stop being fed  off of.

Indeed, Lavos's awakenings are comparable (not in scale, but in the same sense) to a child poking their sleeping parent and thus incurring their wrath.

Lavos was still a "parent-in-training," and is only taking things as they go. Lavos really didn't take good precautions in disciplining his new servants, but like I've said already, it's not proof of insentience, as sentient parents can be just as incapable of disciplining offspring as insentient parents...

If Lavos indeed intended it, Lavos intended for the intelligence it passed down to be used to its own benefit.

Many of this also commit the logical fallacy of assuming that which they are trying to prove--namely, Lavos' sentience. You are creating motives for Lavos that do not have canonical basis. You are describing Lavos' actions with a sentient bias and then using that bias to claim your premise is proved. It's not a very effective argument.

My second grievance is that much of the rest of your argument is based upon the fallacy that a specialized behavior equates to sentience:

As for humans feeding off of Lavos's power, parasiting the parasite if you will, offspring are capable of rebelling against, disrespecting, and defiling their parents, yes? And this is something that parents don't intend to happen, but nevertheless prepare for it.

Indeed, Lavos's awakenings are comparable (not in scale, but in the same sense) to a child poking their sleeping parent and thus incurring their wrath.

And, only as a sidenote, I see Lavos as being sentient. Jellyfish are insentient. Jellyfish don't have brains. Jellyfish aren't physically/mentally/intellectually aware. Jellyfish just float about, and eat only by catching things that unwittingly swim into their dregs. (In other words, the Jellyfish you encountered in the Jellyfish Sea/El Nido Triangle wasn't an actual Jellyfish, because it was indeed sentient, and aware of your attacks, and countered your attacks thusly)

Nature is replete with highly precise behavior on the part of animals, and even the animals themselves are very sophisticated and specialized. But the thing is that these precise animal behaviors are the result of selection, as are the animals themselves. Specialized behavior does not equate to sentience.

Likewise for Lavos. It seems much more likely that Lavos’ behaviors were not rational at all, but instinctive. These behavioral responses would have evolved because they had benefited Lavos or Lavos’ species in the past, or perhaps because of Lavos’ specific, DNA-absorbing nature. The instinct for self-preservation is endemic to all life. Lavos' actions seem like plain old animal nature.

Remember that Lavos’ only demonstrable behaviors are consistent with that of an insentient being. Lavos has no dialogue. Lavos carries out no elaborate schemes, let alone does Lavos indicate an adaptiveness to new circumstances. Lavos has no complex thoughts attributed to it whatsoever. Lavos is described only in terms of its power or its raw emotions, that would occur would rational thought behind them. Lavos’ behavior throughout the entire game lacks any deliberateness, instead resembling that of a simple animal. In 600 A.D., when provoked by Magus, Lavos briefly awakens and, much like a sleeping dragon, causes a big fiery roar that toasts to cinders those who would pester it. Then it simply goes back to sleep. That’s the behavior of an insentient animal. In 12,000 B.C., when attacked in the Ocean Palace, Lavos strikes back in a completely unorganized manner, failing to capitalize on its incredible tactical advantage and wipe the entire party out. Then Lavos lets out an even bigger, more fiery roar, and toasts the Kingdom of Zeal. And then what? It goes back to sleep. This is the behavior of an insentient animal. There’s no rhyme or reason to it…just plain and simple rote. Lavos draws back Chronopolis through time because of its link with the Frozen Flame as an instinctive response. Lavos takes no initiative, Lavos shows no intent, and Lavos demonstrates no intelligence. These are all criticisms that must be addressed if you are to persuade me of Lavos’ sentience.

Again, my best argument that Lavos is not sentient is here. Did you read it? It addresses more than adequately many of the points you raise in your post.

Lastly, you do make one point worthy of a counterargument:

For one thing, insentient beings can't produce sentient offspring. Clearly, for humans to gain intelligence from something like the Frozen Flame would mean that the Frozen Flame is itself sentient, and if the Frozen Flame is sentient, the source from which it came, Lavos, would have to be sentient, too.

You can find my reply to that here, but the gist is that the Frozen Flame is a different beast than Lavos itself. Remember, when the Dreamstone awoke love and hate and other passions in human beings, this is not to imply that the Dreamstone itself contained the blueprints for these. Far more likely is that its curious energies interacted with the primitive human mind, and when the two were combined only then did these higher characteristics result. Likewise, when touching the Frozen Flame, it is just as important to consider the human half of the equation as well as any powers of the Flame. I would posit that if human sentience were a flower, human nature provided the seed and the Frozen Flame provided the water.

Now, of course the Frozen Flame actually is conscious to some degree, and perhaps even sentient, but that's something of a different story. Follow the link I gave you for a more thorough consideration.

[GrayLensman]

Nature is replete with highly precise behavior on the part of animals, and even the animals themselves are very sophisticated and specialized. But the thing is that these precise animal behaviors are the result of selection, as are the animals themselves. Specialized behavior does not equate to sentience.

Likewise for Lavos. It seems much more likely that Lavos’ behaviors were not rational at all, but instinctive. These behavioral responses would have evolved because they had benefited Lavos or Lavos’ species in the past, or perhaps because of Lavos’ specific, DNA-absorbing nature. The instinct for self-preservation is endemic to all life. Lavos' actions seem like plain old animal nature.

Lavos did not passively absorb DNA, at least according to Magus.

Magus: ......

   So...since the dawn of time, it has
   slept underground, controlling
   evolution on this world for his own
   purpose...

This statement suggests that Lavos manipulated the evolution of countless living organisms over the course of over 65 million years.  This is an immense computational task requiring complex decision making, memory and planning.  The pure intelligence exhibited in the manipulation of natural selection on a planetary scale is staggering.  Lavos may be a genetic engineering savant, but it undoubtedly has a supremely powerful and rational mind.

As to the question of Lavos's consciousness, I disagree with the conclusion that Lavos acts on instinct alone.

The evolution of Lavos's species is not subject to natural selection.  Lavos intelligently produces and selects beneficial genetic traits and incorporates them into its own DNA.  If Lavos, or other members of its species, inhabited a world with sentient life, they would have adopted this highly advantageous ability, or they would have engineered this trait.

Lavos's actions in 12,000 BC and 600 AD are not indicative of a purely instinctual response to an external stimuli.  Lavos limited its destruction to the immediate threats to its well being, carefully leaving the rest of its experiment subjects intact.  The association of Zealian civilization with the threat of the Ocean Palace to its well being is evidence of conscious, rational thought.  Lavos did not even eliminate all humans or all civilization. Similarly, Lavos's response to Magus's summons (if any) was very precise.

The drawing back of Chronopolis was definitely a conscious act.  Lavos anticipated its defeat and pulled the research facility across time in an attempt to change its fate.  Josh attributed this to instinct, but instincts are basically preprogrammed behaviours.  I don't see how Lavos could be preprogrammed, in the case of its anticipated future defeat, and in the remote chance that a research facility is performing a counter-time experiment allowing it to be time warped, to pull the research facility back in time in an attempt to disrupt the time-line and prevent its destruction.

Although Lavos makes no attempt at conscious communication (except perhaps with Queen Zeal), there was no point in which communication would be beneficial to it.  Lavos is an alien intelligence, and it is wrong to assume it would gloat, beg for mercy, or conform to other human behavioural patterns.  Lavos appears to be a solitary organism, and would not see communication in the same light as highly social animals, like humans.  Lavos's mind could be totally different from the local, humanoid species, making communication impractical.  Lavos's vocalizations are probably automatic responses to pain or stress, although humans do that as well.

[Zaperking]

Thank You Gray.

Lavos show's signs of sentience. And even if half of it is based on instinct, a creature with instinct has to have atleast a bit of sentient characterisitics. Like feeding, you'd be conscious of the fact they you need to eat to exist. Though this is debatable, nvm.
I could say humans are non sentient till 5, because walking and talking is an instinct. But guess what? Some people become aware of themselves at 1. I for one became conscious of myself when I was 2, when I fell from a two story apartment and hit my head. From then on, I remember everything pretty much. Kindergarden, every single birthday and christmas since 2, and alot of stuff most people don't even get to know till they;re 5.

[Zenning]

I have two grievances with your argument, Zenning. First, you ascribe a number of characteristics to Lavos that have no canonical basis in any of the games.

My second grievance is that much of the rest of your argument is based upon the fallacy that a specialized behavior equates to sentience.

I'm only supposing that boths side of the issue are possible.

What's so fallacious about that?

Besides, I thought you're the champion of "Artistic Interpretation?"

Indeed, they may be no evidence for, but it's not like there is evidence against, either.

[Mystik3eb]

I, for one, have to agree with the "Lavos is Sentient" argument because of the above stated reasons. Mostly because of the Chronopolis issue. That's a pretty insane move based on an instinct. I mean if Lavos wasn't Sentient, it wouldn't be able to tell it was being destroyed until it (its destruction) was happening. A Sentient being who is able to see all the timeline from its pocket dimension would.

Also the Frozen Flame deal. I mean its interaction with the Dreamstone could be a possibility, but I agree more with the idea that it came from a Sentient being. I'm really not so sure how it would come into contact with the Dreamstone anyway, especially if it wasn't found until a new timeline was born and they discovered it in the new Lavos-free future. I mean I don't recall if it's in the CC script, but who says humans discovered their magic and their brain advanced and whatnot because of physical contact with the Flame? It's mere prescence could be enough to do so. For example, the CC characters don't actually touch the FF at the end, but it's still able to communicate with them anyway.

Also I posted in another thread that Lavos's flight through space seems to be manned by an error-adjusting flight plan, since it looks like Lavos curves right before its arrival on Earth. Is that really the spell propelling it through space at work, or is it Lavos adjusting itself?

Sure it's totally possible it's non-Sentient. I highly doubt it, though.

[SilentMartyr]

No, it would be lavos being sucked into the planet's gravitational pull. When Lavos landed it came in at an angle, which means that Lavos did not come in straight at the planet, but curved with the pull of the planet.

[Burning Zeppelin]

So it was all chance that Lavos reached the Earth? Maybe Lavos is like a barnacle, just trying a nice rock to sit on. blub...blub...blub...SMACK! ONTO THE ROCK! BOOM>>>HEADSHOT>>>!!!!!!111!!1eleven
But seriously, is Lavos like a barnacle?

[V_Translanka]

It seems improbable that Lavos wouldn't be attracted to (by w/e force you want to believe) planets w/life (or at least the potential for life) on them. I mean, Lavos doesn't seem to create enough spawn to assume that Lavos just launch it's spawn randomly into the cosmos figuring that at least one of them will hit something w/life on it...

[SilentMartyr]

So it was all chance that Lavos reached the Earth? Maybe Lavos is like a barnacle, just trying a nice rock to sit on. blub...blub...blub...SMACK! ONTO THE ROCK! BOOM>>>HEADSHOT>>>!!!!!!111!!1eleven
But seriously, is Lavos like a barnacle?

No, I was just saying that Lavos wouldn't have had to aim directly at the planet to hit it. I was responding to this statement:

Also I posted in another thread that Lavos's flight through space seems to be manned by an error-adjusting flight plan, since it looks like Lavos curves right before its arrival on Earth. Is that really the spell propelling it through space at work, or is it Lavos adjusting itself?

[GrayLensman]

No, it would be lavos being sucked into the planet's gravitational pull. When Lavos landed it came in at an angle, which means that Lavos did not come in straight at the planet, but curved with the pull of the planet.

Do you mean that Lavos has unpowered flight?  The escape velocity from the sun at earth's orbit is 42.1 km/s which is Lavos' minimum speed when it arrived in 65 million BC.  At this velocity, an object would not be significantly deflected by the earth's gravity unless it was an almost direct hit.  Last year, Asteroid 2004 FH, traveling at only 3.4 km/s, passed just 43,000 km (or 3.4 earth diameters) from the earth's surface and was deflected about 15 degrees.

Precisely hitting a target the size of the earth from interstellar distances is next to impossible.  The only way Lavos could make the trip is with the capacity for powered space-flight.

Personally, I think Lavos's species coasts through the galaxy at something less than 100 km/s until they find a suitable planet and change course to impact.  That makes for travel times in the hundreds of thousands or millions of years.  A creature that spends 65 million years sleeping in the earth's core isn't going to travel at warp speed.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Hmm, interesting point. I wonder what time is like for Lavos, how it is for him. Seeing as how it can survive 65 million years (but not sure how long without draining energy), it would have to make time ratio to ours very large, like for every 25 thousand years (say) equals to what feels for us 1 year. Maybe Lavos was a creature launched from another planet, as there way to get rid of it.

[V_Translanka]

Perhaps as it travels through space, it's core rests within it's PD?

[Mystik3eb]

His time is quite different than ours considering he's in his own little PD.

[SilentMartyr]

No, it would be lavos being sucked into the planet's gravitational pull. When Lavos landed it came in at an angle, which means that Lavos did not come in straight at the planet, but curved with the pull of the planet.

Do you mean that Lavos has unpowered flight?  The escape velocity from the sun at earth's orbit is 42.1 km/s which is Lavos' minimum speed when it arrived in 65 million BC.  At this velocity, an object would not be significantly deflected by the earth's gravity unless it was an almost direct hit.  Last year, Asteroid 2004 FH, traveling at only 3.4 km/s, passed just 43,000 km (or 3.4 earth diameters) from the earth's surface and was deflected about 15 degrees.

Precisely hitting a target the size of the earth from interstellar distances is next to impossible.  The only way Lavos could make the trip is with the capacity for powered space-flight.

Personally, I think Lavos's species coasts through the galaxy at something less than 100 km/s until they find a suitable planet and change course to impact.  That makes for travel times in the hundreds of thousands or millions of years.  A creature that spends 65 million years sleeping in the earth's core isn't going to travel at warp speed.

No, not necessarily. I am just saying that Lavos most likely did not have to aim directly at the planet. It just had to be in the vincinity of the planets pull, thus explaining why it came in at the angled trajectory that it did.