Author Topic: Bickering  (Read 2983 times)

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2005, 10:09:49 am »
Trolling is the designing of responses or posts to incite unrest or flaming. While it can often just happen as a byproduct of heated discussion, there are master trolls out there who simply love to cause argument and ruin boards. OCR had its share before they finally listened to zircon and started banning them.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2005, 10:16:06 am »
thanx
oh crap, was that trolling...kiddin
Flat Earth, Time Cube, LUElinks, they are all figments of our delightful imagination...irrepressible!

Exodus

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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2005, 02:25:00 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
I'd like to contest that last moderation, Gray. I don't think it's trolling to answer Kazuki's question about what happened to Crimson Echoes. It's on hiatus, which is dubious because "on hiatus" is usually the purgatory where projects go before they die. Anyone who is interested in the project has got to share in my disappointment that nothing has been accomplished since ZeaLitY turned it over to the current management. I think certain people would put their time to better use by working on CE, a big project with which they have been entrusted, rather than being mean-spirited trolls who can't take a little bloody nose in the forum of rational debate.


Oh my, nothing has been accomplished? Now remind me, what was it you did for the project again? When was the last time you visited the board to speak of any progress you've made? Unless you want to contribute to the project, stop complaining, okay?

Thanks.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2005, 02:34:22 pm »
Quote from: Exodus
Shut the hell up, please.


This is exactly the sort of comment which is not allowed.

You could have said: "Josh, if you would look at the forum again, you would see that significant progress has been made."

If you feel wronged, posting insults will only escalate the argument.  The only acceptable solution is to contact a moderator or administrator.

Exodus

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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 02:37:57 pm »
It's been fixed.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 03:14:17 pm »
Quote from: Exodus
Now remind me, what was it you did for the project again? When was the last time you visited the board to speak of any progress you've made? Unless you want to contribute to the project, stop complaining, okay?

I thought you had "php-banned" me, or whatever. =P

I did offer to stay on as an adviser, just as I had done for ZeaLitY, and when I gave some advice you took it very poorly. What was I going to do? Argue with you? I figured if you didn't like dissenting advice, I'd try not to give any. And since that topic, nothing has been happening on the CE forums, so I haven't had the opportunity to give any assenting advice. Besides, telling me that I haven't contributed much to the project won't bring Crimson Echoes any closer to completion. You, for your part, offered to take charge of the project. That makes you much more responsible for the game's progress.

Look, you got mad at me earlier in this thread for pointing out that ideas can be dangerous regardless of whether they are supported or rejected by the people who created them. You called me names for trying to raise an intelligent point. Obviously you either don't like to be disagreed with, or you don't like me...or both! If you intend to go on losing your temper at me all the time, maybe "php-ban" is the way to go.

I hope you and Jake can make CE happen. I told ZeaLitY long before he stepped down that I believed that, no matter who replaced him, the project would die. It's a major undertaking to create a feature-length video game. It'll be even harder if you keep up with such a sour and hostile mood.

Exodus

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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2005, 03:50:16 pm »
Yeah, I refused your advice, because contrary to your belief, you are not always correct.

And I do have you phpBB user blocked. Had you checked out the feature, you would have known that you can choose to display a blocked user's post.

Now, why was your advice not accepted? Because, quite simply, you believe in a theory. Now, theories are called theories because they have little scientific backing.

Had you offered statistics to back your claim up, I may have considered it. But, as is, I cannot forfeit workers on a whim because of a theory. I didn't do it because I wanted to be an ass, I did it because I have the best interest of the project in mind.

Now, I WILL throw in my subjective analysis:

You offer "advice." I declined your advice, because I did not feel it was the best course of action. Apparently, this hurt your ego, or you would not be wasting my time with such argumentative spiels.

Now, let me tell you something. We don't need advice on how to run the game. We do, however, need JLukas, Chickenlump, and Geiger, for their knowledge on ROM hacking and the like. Aside from these three, what we need the most are workers experienced with Temporal Flux. Not that the possible failure is completely my fault; people lost faith in the project when Zeality stepped down. I dare you to bring competence into play, considering it's been difficult since day one, what with all of the COMPLAINING I've heard. You gave a perfect example- yourself. You felt that if Zeality stepped down, the project would be a failure. Way to keep up morale, J.

You want to help bring the board back into action, like I've tried no less that five times to do? Go on ahead.

I'm not trying to discredit your advice completely; I'm sure a lot of it could come into play. But we simply don't need any more advice. We need Temporal Flux workers and experienced ROM hackers, like the afforementioned three.

Take from this what you will. I'm neither asking you to leave, nor asking you to stay. I'm asking you to stop your complaining.

Good day, sir.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2005, 04:41:07 pm »
Quote from: Exodus
Yeah, I refused your advice, because contrary to your belief, you are not always correct.

I believe no such thing. What sort of a person would I be if I thought myself infallible?

But what about this particular instance? Have the facts not already begun to prove me right? Do the words "on hiatus" mean anything to you? Your conduct with Crimson Echoes has been unprofessional and your leadership has been ineffective. You have spurned people rather than respect a diversity of opinion. You also have tended to get a bit self-righteous. You have made zero physical progress on the game itself. Indeed, rather than proceed with the project, you have wrung your hands and complained that you don't have the resources you need. Well, that speaks for itself. ZeaLitY made do with the same resources, and his zeal caused the demo to happen. Where's your zeal? I think it is tied up in useless pursuits like persecuting ol' Josh for threatening your sense of security with an elaborate, well-reasoned, and yet sometimes contrary position to your own...as well as for my daring to espouse an intellectual manner that you purport to disdain.

You're the boss, and I'm the adviser. Your job is not to change my mind; it's to make better decisions based on the advice you're given. But if you care more about wanting to try and win me over to your point of view, then the only thing that can beat me is a rational argument. And you will find here and there throughout the Compendium that when someone makes a better case than I do, I cede to them. But emotional rhetoric, half-baked logic, and specious reasoning, will never, ever change my mind. One of the reasons you have so much trouble is that you get caught up in those much too often. All too often you simply dismiss out of hand anything that you don't like. It's what caused you to fly off the handle in this thread, and goodness knows how many other times you've behaved like that here on the Compendium. I remember at least one:

Quote from: Exodus
Yeah, you're right. I didn't read it. I don't have any respect for your theory. You discredit everything Lavos has done and attach "primal instinct" to it.

I wonder how you can not respect a theory you didn't read? Calm down already and listen to reason! Our fellow Compendiumites want to see peace in the land and progress on the fanworks. And in that spirit, I say, in this specific case, you are welcome to prove me wrong and complete Crimson Echoes at your leisure. I would very much like to see it happen. I'm sure you would too.

Exodus

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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2005, 05:35:15 pm »
Because the opinions weren't the best train of thought, perhaps?

I love how you're picking out the few instances in which your statements apply, by the way. At the beginning, I was fully ready to accept opinions. But then they began to be attempts at force, rather than suggestions. I didn't use your suggestion, and you complained. To this day, you cannot let it go because you have one mindset, and one mindset only: I am Lord Josh esq. Everything I say and do is right. Sure, you may say otherwise, but your behavior is a direct indicator.

Also of note, past the diminishing returns theory, you contributed nothing afterwards. The forum didn't just "die". There was activity at least two weeks after I went against your suggestion. Why didn't you post then? At first, I thought your absence was my fault. Perhaps I had offended you by denying your advice? And then I realized you were gone because somebody had denied something you had suggested.

And I've said it once, I'll say it again: I didn't respect your theory in the same way you don't have any respect for mine.

You may claim to, but had you any respect for it, you wouldn't have continued your spiel on why I was wrong and why the almighty J was right.

I'll remind you who it was that incited the argument, J. It was you. Because you wanted to flaunt your theory, which, much like starx's Frozen Flame = Dreamstone argument, was flawed in more ways than one.

As an example, you argue semantics in this passage:

"Destroying  Zeal was an act of defense, not sentience."

By the way, J, do you even know the definition of sentience?

Quoth dictionary.com:

Quote
  1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
   2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.


Clearly, if it were an act of defense, as you claim, Lavos would have had to have KNOWN and THOUGHT OUT any plans for an assault on Zeal. It doesn't matter how primitive this thought process is, it's still thought, and thus sentience.

Yet you argued against the definitions as defined in the dictionary! I could be schizoid, or I could be on to something; Lord J esq puts up a wall of reason so that he can spout nonsense from the inside.

Not that it particularly matters. I'm not any more correct than you are, yet you continued. However, under reason, would you not have preferred to simply end the argument with the conclusion that neither party can be correct due to lack of evidence? That seems feasible. After all, you claim to be a man of reason and peace. But did you do this? No. Because you wanted to prove that you were correct and above everybody else when it comes to truth.

I can't possibly make this up... You don't argue with reason, you argue with condescendence and mask it with reason and polite mannerisms.

I really don't like you. Don't speak to me again, lest it concern something important.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2005, 06:53:35 pm »
Looking at your post for anything worthy of a reply...I would say I think we've gotten off topic. Thrice removed from it, in fact. This has ceased to be about the Flat Earth Society, has ceased to be about the gravity of ideas promoted by such backward groups, and has even ceased to be about your merits as co-director of Crimson Echoes. At this point you're arguing about something that belongs in the appropriate threads of the Analysis Section. So let's cut it off here and move on.

In that spirit, there is one thing you said to which I really would like to reply, and that has to do with the definition of sentience. In my life outside the Chrono Compendium, the exact nature of sentience is a subject near and dear to my heart, and one that I have worked on extensively over many years, conversed over with many people, and even studied academically! If you ask me, the hardest part of understanding sentience is simply coming up with a good definition for it. And maybe that isn't surprising, since a good definition implies a good understand of the entire concept. But how interesting, then, that the ultimate final exam of one's understanding may be as simple as defining a single word!

And truly, for all its usual authority as a source of expertise, the dictionary definition in this case does sentience no justice. We cannot make sentience synonymous with words like awareness, consciousness, cognition, and so forth, because these refer to different concepts. And, notwithstanding the etymology of the word itself, we cannot rely upon the older definition of sentience, which refers as you mentioned to feeling as opposed to thought. Sentience is neither feeling nor thought, but again a different concept.

In the past couple of years, my work has focused on the will. What is the will? Commonly it is understood to be our power of choice. But what does that mean, really? The will is more than just the power of choice; it is the seat of identity, and, crucially, it is thus an abstract projection. If I asked you to point to yourself, what would you point to? Your arm? Your head? Your chest? It'd all be wrong. The will is what you would want to point to, but the will does not exist as a simple physical structure. It is an interpretation, an abstraction, a product of something else. And I've come to the fascinating conclusion that the "something else" is sentience, that sentience and the will are related in the most intimate way. And here's how: The will is that which is produced by being sentient. In other words, sentience manifests itself in the form of the will. That is why I almost always refer to the will as the "sentient will." (You may find this in other Compendium topics.) In more rigorous terms, my hypothesis is that sentience is responsible for the will. That is a testable proposal.

But not before we get our definitions in order. If the will is the product of sentience, then what is sentience? We still need that one essential definition. And, after learning about the will, I have begun to come around to attacking this question frontally. Starting from the neurons and synapses of the human brain, and working our way up, we graduate from the physical stuff of the brain and get into something called cognition, and this time the dictionary acquits itself quite well by offering a truly helpful definition:

Quote from: Dictionary
cognition
   1. The mental process of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.
   2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge.

But if the brain itself is the object, and cognition is the process, then what is the condition? I think you can see where this is headed! Sentience is the condition that results from having a brain such as ours, and cognition is the brain's process of knowing, and of course the brain itself is the physical apparatus. If you like analogies, this is much in the same way as water is an object, rain is a process, and wet is the condition of the object that results from the process.

In that regard, sentience is a gradient, not an absolute "yes" or "no" condition, and I don't think I ever made that clear in the Lavos discussions. I was using the human level of sentience as a cutoff, but perhaps I would have done better to point all of this out a long time ago.

We now also have a model for understanding the will, which as the product of the condition of sentience is itself the seat of identity--now you can see why that makes sense--and also an abstract projection--which now also makes sense--and that the will, therefore, is not an object, nor a condition, but an action.

It's fascinating stuff. At least I think so. And once you get these simple (hah) definitions out of the way, then you'll have a powerful new perspective through which to dabble in everything from cybernetics to epistemology.

Exodus

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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2005, 05:30:59 am »
Is it really? You absolutely need to have  backing before you can claim something as the truth. Denying this is an excuse in itself, Josh.

I enjoy watching you swing your troll club. Daniel Krispin's only logical fallacy was thinking he could actually get you to listen to him. I've seen what you had to say in the "Reconciling the Frozen Flame as Dreamstone" topic. Humorous, to say the least. It's very ill-minded of you to make assertions that not only is the Frozen Flame made of Dreamstone, but that Dreamstone does indeed occur naturally on other planets (something easily refuted with the simple fact that there is no backing in-game or otherwise to even suggest such statements have any truth.)

I still don't like you, by the way. =)

Better watch out guys. Josh is the new judge when it comes to determining logical fallacies.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2005, 07:31:13 am »
Quote from: Exodus
Is it really? You absolutely need to have  backing before you can claim something as the truth. Denying this is an excuse in itself, Josh.

Perhaps you have forgotten what we were discussing earlier in this topic. Allow me to refresh your memory:

Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Exodus
The FES guy admitted to it being a joke. It doesn't matter if other people actually believed his bullshit, because he still said it was a joke.

You've got it exactly wrong. It matters very much that others believe in a flat Earth, without regard to the beliefs of the theory's creator.


Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Exodus
... Screw you. Seriously.

I'm saying it was originally a JOKE, and a bunch of retards actually took what he said seriously.

I think you're missing the point. An idea that sticks in the minds of others is more important than its creator. It becomes a meme and takes on a metaphoric life of its own. When other people believe an idea, the idea shapes a small part of the world. Does it matter who started the idea or whether that person believes what he or she said? Nary a whit. An idea that, once unleashed, takes root in the minds of others, is a force unto itself, and must be taken seriously not only to influence the course of history and control one's own life to the best extent possible, but even to understand the world itself. You mustn't dismiss the truth so frivolously.

Then we got a bit sidetracked on your, shall we say, "progress" with Crimson Echoes. That's where this debate about facts and truth came from:

Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Exodus
Yeah, I refused your advice, because contrary to your belief, you are not always correct.

I believe no such thing. What sort of a person would I be if I thought myself infallible?

But what about this particular instance? Have the facts not already begun to prove me right? Do the words "on hiatus" mean anything to you? Your conduct with Crimson Echoes has been unprofessional and your leadership has been ineffective. You have spurned people rather than respect a diversity of opinion. You also have tended to get a bit self-righteous. You have made zero physical progress on the game itself. Indeed, rather than proceed with the project, you have wrung your hands and complained that you don't have the resources you need. Well, that speaks for itself. ZeaLitY made do with the same resources, and his zeal caused the demo to happen. Where's your zeal? I think it is tied up in useless pursuits like persecuting ol' Josh for threatening your sense of security with an elaborate, well-reasoned, and yet sometimes contrary position to your own...as well as for my daring to espouse an intellectual manner that you purport to disdain.

The word "theory" first showed up here:

Quote from: Exodus
Yeah, you're right. I didn't read it. I don't have any respect for your theory. You discredit everything Lavos has done and attach "primal instinct" to it.

Then there was some semantic discussion about what a theory is in the scientific sense, at which Leebot pointed out the correct meaning of the term. You took that as another opportunity to say this:

Quote from: Exodus
Bah, indeed I have worded it poorly.

I should have mentioned that it is a theory because it doesn't have that "ultimate truth" to make it a fact.

And that's where we are now. You've confused the topics of discussion to futher this anti-Josh agenda of yours, rather than address any of them in a straightforward, reasoned manner. These topics include:

1. Can an idea be dangerous even if its creator renounces it? (I have argued that yes, it can.)

2. Is Crimson Echoes happening? (It's a valid question.)

3. What constitutes a theory? (A working, testable, falsifiable explanation of a set of facts.)

4. I also made an interesting digression into the topic of sentience, in an effort to change the subject to something more enjoyable.

Now, let's see what you have to say about any of these topics:

Quote from: Exodus
I enjoy watching you swing your troll club.

Whaaa?

Quote from: Exodus
I've seen what you had to say in the "Reconciling the Frozen Flame as Dreamstone" topic. Humorous, to say the least.

Ah, so you've read something I wrote after all! Let's see what you have to say about it:

Quote from: Exodus
It's very ill-minded of you to make assertions that not only is the Frozen Flame made of Dreamstone...

Perhaps if you understood the art of debate better, you would appreciate my position more. I am not "asserting" anything. Here's what I said:

Quote from: Lord J Esq
Consider the possibility that that which splintered off of Lavos was not simply a piece of its shell, but something else altogether. We know that Lavos emanates energy; you don’t have to be touching Lavos physically in order to get a whiff of its power. The Mammon Machine is proof enough of that. So when Lavos emanates power, what substances in the world are most sensitive to it? [Zenning] said it [himself]: Dreamstone.

Dreamstone is therefore an excellent receptacle for Lavos’ power. But it is also said to have kindled the fundamental passions in human beings: love and hate, and so forth. Therefore, without actually making any declarations yet, there is at least the possibility that a piece of Dreamstone that has absorbed something from Lavos might have a strange sort of effect in humans, awakening in them other fundamental passions that relate to Lavos’ identity. That’s just a bit of speculation on my part, but it happens to describe the Frozen Flame very accurately.

Quote from: Lord J Esq
The theoretical combination of Dreamstone’s passion-awakening powers and Lavos’ raw energy accurately describes the function of the Frozen Flame, and can account for the rapid evolution of humanity. The idea that Dreamstone, rather than a piece of Lavos’ shell, was the physical host for the essence—the “splinter”—of Lavos gets rid of the concern that there ought to be other splinters of Lavos’ shell, and thus other Frozen Flames. The final piece of the puzzle—explaining why this piece of Dreamstone in particular, and only this piece, went on to become the Frozen Flame—remains unsolved. But I think it makes for some interesting thought.

In that topic I have, after seeing some compelling statements made by other Compendiumites, put forward an argument that Dreamstone serves as the physical vessel of the Frozen Flame. It is a compelling idea, and so far it has not been disproved, although there are legitimate questions facing it, many of which remain under discussion in that topic. But no, I'm not asserting that proposal. It's one that I find interesting, and I am running it through the obstacle course to see if it holds water. So far, it does. Now that I've refreshed your memory, you are welcome to disagree with me--provided you care to do so in a reasoned fashion. But please do it in the Frozen Flame topic; not here. If you're not going to read what I write before you disagree with it, we really don't need to clutter up two threads on the same topic.

Quote from: Exodus
It's very ill-minded of you to make assertions that ... Dreamstone does indeed occur naturally on other planets.

You are making that up. Perhaps you did not read that topic so well as you thought. Here's what I said:

Quote from: Lord J Esq
Quote from: Zenning
Why would you want to keep saying that Dreamstone is not unique to the planet, is present on other planets, and possibly came from Lavos? Because it's entertaining?

I never said this. I think you misunderstood my idea to mean that I believe Dreamstone was actually present on Lavos’ shell before it crashed onto Crono’s world. Actually I believe no such thing.

Inasmuch as “The Planet” seems to be a unique entity, I would be prepared to accept, for the sake of artistic harmony, the idea that Dreamstone might be unique to “The Planet.” But if it occurs naturally elsewhere in the universe, just as perhaps other planets have living identities of their own, then so be it. It doesn’t matter much one way or the other for the sake of this discussion.

You may take that as a stern rejoinder to get your facts straight before you bring them to the table of mature debate. It doesn't help your case to make things up about what other people say, when it's so easy for me to push that Quote button and prove you wrong. You might take that into consideration before you embarrass yourself again. Just as I did with Daniel Krispin, so too will I do with you the same: I will expose fraudulent statements with reason and citation. I can see why that makes you so angry. Can you see a way to spare yourself the pain of my putting you through it yet again?

Quote from: Exodus
I still don't like you, by the way. =)

Whaaa? What happened to this:

Quote from: Exodus
I enjoy watching you swing your troll club.

Somehow, your taunt strikes me as forced. I would be glad to end the enmity between us, if you would care to argue rationally rather than emotionally.

Exodus

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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2005, 03:31:18 pm »
One word can sum up what you just said:


No.

Save for these:

Quote from: Lord J esq

1. Can an idea be dangerous even if its creator renounces it? (I have argued that yes, it can.)

2. Is Crimson Echoes happening? (It's a valid question.)

3. What constitutes a theory? (A working, testable, falsifiable explanation of a set of facts.)

4. I also made an interesting digression into the topic of sentience, in an effort to change the subject to something more enjoyable.


1. No.

2. Yes.

3. All of which Dimishing Returns lacks.

4. Which failed in making the topic "enjoyable."

Exodus

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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2005, 06:06:02 pm »
The problem is that Josh states it as though it must be so one-hundred per cent of the time, which is as false as a flase.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2005, 06:14:31 pm »
Quote from: Exodus
The problem is that Josh states it as though it must be so one-hundred per cent of the time, which is as false as a flase.

Exodus, the operative word is can:

Quote from: Lord J esq

1. Can an idea be dangerous even if its creator renounces it? (I have argued that yes, it can.)

You really ought to do yourself the courtesy of reading what other people write before spouting off. I don't know how to put this in any simpler terms: Don't embarrass yourself by making up things that other people didn't say. Just spend a little extra time reading the material and understanding it properly, and we won't have any problem. In fact, given what you just said, we're not even in disagreement! Yes, an idea can be dangerous even if its creator renounces it. This has been my stance all the while, and apparently it is yours as well, or at least now it is.