According to the religious creed itself, human beings are in an unwinnable position, through no fault of their own, but because of the way your god supposedly created us.
Unwinnable? No sir, Jesus Christ has given us the opportunity to save ourselves. Winnable.
I appreciate what you’re saying, but it still doesn’t address my point. Radical Dreamer touched on this very well:
Sentenal, I think the "Plan" in of itself is part of what Josh means by us being in an unwinnable position. It detracts from our "ownership" of ourselves. If God has a plan for me, and that which I do to stick to the plan, which I'll never know, is "good", and that which I do that strays from the plan is "evil", then my life is not my own life to live. That is, even with free will, my decisions are ultimately secondary in the determination of how I live my life.
And you’re saying, Sentenal, that living for God is the ultimate life we can live…that “touching” God is the apex of our potential. You’re saying there is nothing within us that is great, if it does not somehow embrace God. In so many words, we are nothing and God is everything. And not only is this true today, but forever. So that no matter what we may
ever accomplish, in all the centuries, howsoever magnificent by our mundane comprehension, it is meaningless before the glory of God. We are trash whose only redemption is to serve our purpose, and our only purpose is to accept God. And you’re saying it is no shame for us to be God’s trash, because we’re
God’s trash.
To express my objection with that, allow me to begin by offering a somewhat weird analogy:
The Whole Milk StoryHuman beings are like a little carton of milk. We are fresh and delicious. At the dairy factory there hangs a Holy Chart telling us how important it is to be fresh and delicious, and there’s a picture of someone with a milk moustache to emphasize the point. But our life is very short, because we’re full of bacteria that makes us spoil. If we go rancid when the purpose of a little carton of milk is to give some thirsty person a tasty drink, then obviously we cannot fulfill our purpose!
So we
choose to remain fresh. Sounds easy, yes? But we are only a carton of milk! What power does our choice truly have to back it up? Did we create the bacteria that spoils us? No; it is simply in our nature that bacteria finds a home in us. Do we control the motor that keeps our refrigerator running? No; that power is utterly beyond us. Can we prevent our carton from being pierced by a wild bear? Nope. So we live in a world very hostile to milk. Not only are we doomed to spoil, but there is nothing we can do to prevent it, because we are milk, and milk by its very nature must spoil one way or another. That is, unless we get consumed. So how can we give this faraway thirsty person a tasty drink?
Fortunately for us, a long time ago there was a Milkman who died to make us fresh. He pasteurized us with his steam, killing the bacteria that infect us, making it possible for us to reach the thirsty person who wants to drink us. At last, by the Milkman’s grace our choice to remain fresh has some power to back itself up. And so, if we are good, the essential creaminess within us becomes a part of the Great Milk-Mustachioed One, and our cardboard shell is discarded into the rubbish pile of eternity.
But it’s still a very tough world, and despite being pasteurized it is
still our nature to eventually spoil. It will always be that way, because milk spoils. And if we go rancid before we can be consumed, then we get thrown out completely, milk and carton alike. In a single instant, we have lost our one and only chance to ever fulfill our one and only purpose. For the rest of eternity, we linger on at the dump in agony, with no way to ever achieve what we were meant to be. For added measure, we suffer milk-curdling physical punishment, too.
Christianity teaches that this is what we are. Our carton is not one of cardboard, but of flesh. Our essential creaminess is not that of milk, but of the soul. Everything else is the same. If our carton were invincible, and there were no bacteria within us, then we would never spoil. But our carton is weak and the bacteria can never be destroyed entirely…so we always spoil—unless we get consumed first. Our whole nature is to be somebody’s drink. This is our single purpose; we are locked into it and cannot change it. We are doomed by our very nature to be overwhelmed by bacteria and spoiled. We have no power over the things that would spoil us. Our only freedom to choose to stay fresh. But that
choice is meaningless, because we have no
power to enforce it. And, worst of all, this one true freedom that gives definition to our existence is an illusion, for the Great Milk-Mustachioed One doesn’t care if we have chosen to remain fresh or not, so long as we actually
are fresh.[/list:u]So you see, Sentenal, the problem I have with Christianity’s doctrine on the nature of humanity is that the message is something of a contradiction in terms. We are supposed to accept Jesus Christ into our lives as our lord and savior. Fair enough. But the physical world in which we live is the gateway through which this choice must be reached, and standing in our way are no end of obstacles—which God himself designed—that make it difficult or
impossible for us to fulfill our purpose. It is one thing to build character by winning a hard victory. It is another thing entirely to play a game that cannot be won at all. Just as a carton of milk can choose not to spoil, and then spoil anyway because it has no power over the factors that control its spoilage, so too with us is it meaningless by itself that we have the choice to accept God, for the reason that in many cases our world and our very own nature—all under God’s control—will prevent us from making that choice successfully, or even from making it at all. That’s why I wrote this:
Yes. I am so great, and I will command them to tell me how great I am...several times each day! And then I will afflict them with injuries and bad tempers, in my mercy, and they shall adore me for having created them according to my will. And when their God-given pain clouds their judgment, and the tempers that I gave them arise against me, I shall dip them into the hellfire until their entrails broil in their own juices.
Can you see the contradiction yet? Salvation is like getting a royal flush. We want it ever so badly, but we have no power. God is the one who’s dealing the cards, and most of the time we get junk. And somehow it’s
our fault…because we’re the ones paying with our souls. I draw a conclusion from this: We cannot make a divine choice without divine power. And therefore:
By itself, the freedom of choice is hollow.What we need is the power to rule over our universe, so that we can control all that which would corrupt our freedom of choice. We must not have the freedom alone, but the power to exercise it as well. Yet your religion teaches, and you yourself have attested, that our own power as human beings is minuscule—nay, infinitesimal—before the power of God. By your own words:
God is God, we are human. God > Man. Its as simple as that. Just as how you say Mother > Fetus. However, God does love his children (men). Man's purpose is to be in a loving relationship with him. And for a religion to promise you that you will be come god-like is full of itself.
Maybe it isn’t the same thing to speak of supreme power over the universe and compare that to the omnipotence of God, but what is certain is that because we are corporeal beings living in a physical world, in order to open ourselves to God and have that loving relationship—to embrace Christ as our lord—we must have not only the freedom to make that choice, but the
power to exercise it as well, and “power” includes a long list of physical qualities that we might substantiate our expression, and a great deal of intellectual awareness that we might comprehend the subject matter. But life guarantees us neither, and therefore Christianity expects us to exercise a power that we do not inherently possess and cannot definitely earn. Those who claim to be saved are speaking on faith; they don’t know one way or the other. Who do they think they are to say otherwise? God?
The world is our proving ground, and God has not given us the power to prove ourselves. All that remains to us is the possibility of achieving that power in the human future. And how many generations of people must be damned in the meantime? If we are to honor your religion’s interpretation of human nature, then we are torn between a paradox. We cannot be humble. We cannot be sheep. Yet God declares this is what we are. I’ve spoken of the contradiction thus far mostly by analogy—humans are trash; humans are milk cartons; humans are poker players with bad cards—but, putting aside all these analogies now, and speaking to the problem literally, I put it to you that the freedom to choose salvation is a detriment to our immortal existence, unless we have the power—including the knowledge—to see the one golden choice with flawless certainty. Where there is more than one choice, we must choose in ignorance. In other words, free will is a curse, because to pass this little freewill test we must be godlike ourselves…and Christianity is aghast at such a blasphemous idea. Which brings me to the word I used in my earlier post:
Unwinnable.
So let’s throw all that away. I’m not going to devote myself to such a miserable destiny, and neither should you.
Do you know what would glorify God even more than a human being who freely chooses to accept God? I’ll tell you what would: Instead of creating flawed and weak human beings, if God had created more Gods, and these had chosen to accept God as well, then God’s glorification would be at its most absolute. But I see no other Gods in this world. (For that matter, I don’t see the one true God, either, but that’s beside the point for the purposes of this discussion.) However, I see in the human future a potential to epitomize this entire universe in excellence and understanding. We already have the power to reason and the capacity to learn; that’s all we need in order to get started. In the millennia to come we can explore this universe from rim to rim, and understand it in every detail, and the only thing standing in our way is the vastness of our undertaking, and the ticking clock of time.
Where is your imagination, Sentenal? Humanity is at the beginning of the best destiny there is. The austerity of Christianity is a rebellion against the old excesses of the late, decaying Roman Empire. It has no place in modern times. With the light of human comprehension amplified by the mechanical and academic progenies of the Industrial Revolution, the Christian lesson of humility and innate wickedness is demonstrably wrong. At risk of becoming an obsolete menace to humankind, religion mustn’t deny our true nature any longer. And our true nature is curiosity and the pursuit of power. Christianity has taught up to this point that both are evils, but Christianity was wrong, and the reason your religion is taking such a beating in our time is that today we stand on the verge of a next step in our evolution, and what we have come to comprehend in the past several hundred years has shed light on the old Christian fallacies.
In this day and age, we are our own worst enemy. We have become powerful enough to shape our own destiny above that of most of the forces of nature, yet we have not yet become powerful enough to ensure wisdom in our actions. I certainly agree with the Christian message that with great power comes even greater responsibility. But if we manage to survive ourselves, and evolve beyond our infancy, I cannot tell you what wonders lie in store for us…because I can barely imagine them myself. Whether or not there is a God, this universe invites our curiosity—and I can think of no better way to spend my lifetime. How do your religious prayers compare? Methinks you are interpreting the word of your god incorrectly…or that your god itself is false. I will let you choose. But choose, because the world is passing you by, and all the Republican majorities in Congress and all the evangelist revivals in the South are not going to prevent the progress of humankind. The inevitable cannot be averted; it can only be postponed, or humanity destroyed altogether—a possibility which becomes more unlikely with each passing year. What Daniel Krispin foresaw as the doom of humanity is not going to be stopped by religious extremists. Neither is it going to be the doom of humanity. He fell victim to the slow extinction of his way of life. You need not. Open yourself to the potential of humankind, and to the beauty of the possibility that your so-called Apocalypse needn’t involve the literal destruction of the world, and that this “mundane” universe of ours shall be the same one where humanity earns its salvation and lives out its paradise. I fail to see why your love of Christ demands that you hate all meaningful human accomplishment, and why it demands that you reject humanity’s self-made,
intrinsic greatness. So let your faith evolve and have a look at the world to come. If you want to dedicate your part in our future to the glory of God, I won’t stop you. Wouldn’t you like to be on the same side, if you can keep your core values and I can keep mine?
It all begins in moments like these, where we debate human nature and therein give meaning to our existence. Some Christians believe that accepting God is the pass-or-fail mark of salvation, and that a true believer is saved no matter what else he or she does in life. Obviously this causes great controversy within the religious community, because it implies that we can commit the most horrible deeds in this world without suffering any penalty in the hereafter. Thus, other Christians believe that salvation depends upon one’s conduct in this life, with belief in Christ being a necessary but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Still other Christians argue that a “true” belief would discourage one from engaging in sinful acts, and therefore those people who claim to be believers but who commit acts deemed by others as wicked, are making a false claim (whether or not they realize it). I would be curious to know which camp you follow, Sentenal.
If simply accepting God truly is the pass-or-fail mark of salvation, then my little milk carton story isn’t applicable. But such a belief is so patently false that it is difficult to reason with those who cling to it, and so I would hope that you do not count yourself among their number. Thus, if salvation requires us not only to choose God, but to lead thoughtful lives as well, then the point of the milk carton story, and of this entire post, is to highlight that God gave us the means to achieve the former, but not the latter. Having free will itself is meaningless if we do not have the power to exercise it successfully. Yet here we are, powerless…so saith Christian doctrine. We are made to play in a game we cannot necessarily win. And when we lose, the price is our soul.
I say it isn’t true.
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