Do You Believe in "God"?

[Leebot]

Well, theoretically, they (or something) has always been there. And before you point out any problem with this, note that the same problems arise when considering either where a god came from, or how s/he could have always been there.

Exactly.  If one side gets to say that something has always been there, why can I not answer "God has always been there"?[/quote]

I'm not arguing with your right to that argument. Granted, it has no evidence (outside of hear-say) to back it up, but I see no reason it can't be true. Of course, this doesn't mean it is true, either.

[Capo]

There is no 'magic' God. The scriptures exactly say to not believe in any sorcellery so why does Man go up making up bullshit like a bearded man in the clouds. As for a superior being, yes, there are much more things going in that direction than the opposite. Even Stephen Hawking and many other astrophysicians come to that conclusion, ALL is logic around us, all is mathematical, therefore there has to be an 'architect' somewhere behind it all. The same thing for man, as I wrote in another thread, the ancient civilisations all credit the apparition of mankind (as Homo Sapiens, suddenly being logic compared to animals who only continue doing what theyre 'programmed' for) to a superior being in our own solar system on top of that. All is logic around us. It's like Socrates himself said and questioned himself. We saw 'use our Logic', but how is it OURS in Nature? If it were completely ours we could also explain from where it comes from, the gift of being logic and seeing things logically. If you cant, then it means something from the exterior gave us that gift, which is why Socrates in the end had to come to the conclusion that 'gods' (superior beings) gave us that gift. The same way in the scriptures it is written to ask God, in other words meaning 'asking/using Logic' to solve problems. Which is why for example in the past during wars, those who won then claimed 'God is with us', in other words the ones who more Logic won the battle. God does not exist as some boogieman hidden in the clouds or anything like that, Man invented that. There is nothing in the scriptures which is illogic. The only way people perceive and make up illogism (false gods, boogieman in the clouds, explaining natural phenomenons under 'magic') is because of the fact of not being advanced technologically enough to fully comprehend the natural phenomenon through logic. Which comes down to the ancient gods all socities talked about. Men with wings (angels), serpent man with wings (Quezacotl), the egyptians gods, etc, etc all of which are symbolic of certain 'beings' which can fly but without having enough technology, we imaine themselves with what we know of that present time. Like for example imagine seeing somebody come out of a vessel in -4000BC, youd say that guy is a magician, he can fly, he does magic, but in reality no, since today as we can see, we can all fly and we dont call that a 'miracle'. Yes, God exists (in the original hebrew bible, itself descended from sumerian knowledge, it even clearly says that God, or Elohim, is a PLURAL term, superior beings in other words, not ONE boogieman), just not as how man tries to 'imagine' it. Man as a whole is quick to build itself its own magical gods based on something which at the base is very true (only not comprehended fully due to the technology available at the time), and in the end basing itself on its own fake gods it erected then goes to conclude that the false gods dont exist therefore God (or Gods) dont exist. Illogisme or ignorance only brings more ignorance. Complete illogic bullshit. The universe is inifinite, there is life on Earth, therefore there are infinite chances of there being life elsewhere right? And the sumeriens themselves even point out that there is a intelligent civilisaiton inside our very solar system on a planet which has not been discovered as of now with an orbt of 3600 years. Too many things are pointing in that direction. Those who say they are atheists and dont believe in any superior beings existing are the ones going against what science (the original religion, religion being a way of life and way of thought) itself is going towards as it discovers new things. Atheists are the ones believing in false gods they erected, themselves, as being unique to the universe with no reason and no logic.

[Mystik3eb]

Dude...seperate your thoughts into paragraphs...I can't read one big honkin' paragraph like that o_O

[Lord J Esq]

Good grief, Capo. I didn't think it was possible, but you seem to have created a position on the subject that no one could possibly agree with! What is your motivation for this, exactly?

[Zaperking]

Life is contradictory. There is life, and there is death. When someone dies, another is born. That is the evidence of God.

[Leebot]

Life is contradictory. There is life, and there is death. When someone dies, another is born. That is the evidence of God.

Allow me to say: WHAT!? First of all, although some people die and some people are born every day, the two events are not connected. One death doesn't imply one birth, and neither does one birth imply one death. If it were that simple, the population would be perfectly static.

Now, how the hell does that link to there being a god, anyway?

...ALL is logic around us, all is mathematical, therefore there has to be an 'architect' somewhere behind it all.

Nope, invalid argument here. Let's suppose that both "logical" and "illogical" universes could exist.

Now, let's analyze what might happen in an illogical universe, where mathematics doesn't perfectly hold (for instance, with the rest of our mathematical rules holding, 2+2 curiously equals 5). If you try to apply this rule to a universe, it very rapidly descends into a chaos of "what-ifs." You can say, "Okay, I've got two down quarks in this neutron, and two down quarks in that neutron. Wait, now I've got 5 total. Where did the fifth one come from, which neutron is it in, and what the hell happened to conservation of energy?" Ironically, an illogical universe such as this would require a god to keep everything in line, if even a god could.

Okay, let's go onto a logical universe which pops up. Mathematics and logic hold perfectly. But, we have yet to define any physical laws, so we get two possibilities:

1) The universe doesn't allow for sentient organisms to develop. Therefore, they never do, and are never there to wonder whether a god designed this universe.

2) The universe does allow for sentient organisms to develop. This breaks down into two more possibilities:

2a) Despite the possibility, sentient life never does develop in this universe, so there's no one around to wonder where it came from.

2b) Sentient life does develop, and they wonder where the universe came from. They come up with theories that since it seems so impossible a universe this perfect could come to be, and that the dice would be thrown right for them to develop in the universe, there must be some creator.

Okay, so if there's only one "universe" (using the term somewhat incorrectly, but you know what I mean), then the fact that we exist in it would seem to give strong credence to a belief in a creator.

But, what if there are many universes created? What if the number is even infinite over the course of time? Even if the probability of a given universe developing sentient life is one in a googleplex (10^(10^100)), over infinite trials, at least one (infinitely many, as a matter of fact) will develop sentient life.

Strong Anthropic Principle, my friend. The scientist's answer to Intelligent Design. If you can't fight it, you can't prove that a god must exist.

[Capo]

Another great book I suggest reading is The Lucifer Principle from Howard Bloom. That guy's a genius, apparently the 'next' Stephen Hawking. And he goes even deeper to explain how Mankind as a whole is 'programmed' (genetically, psychologically, logically) to go towards a Global Mind. Check it out. http://www.howardbloom.net/

Now to the guy above who wrote a lot of stuff even going to 'supposing out of nowhere' the existence of an illogical universe and first of all claiming invalid argument based on his 'imagination of an illogical universe out of nowhere', all of the greatest (logic) astrophysicians today claim that all 'probabilities' (since all being mathematical, we have to use 'probabilities' to find a path) go towards the idea that a bigger entity, source of Logic existing. And you finish by saying, you can't 'prove' a 'God' exists in the end. That's a bullshit conclusion. Seeing is believing (final proof), that's true, above all for the idiot who keeps his eyes closed blindly and not looking at all the hints around him to try and find his path until Truth/Logic itself imposes itself in his face when he becomes a lil too illogical. hahaha I'll ask the same question worth as much, can you 'prove' me a God doesn't exist? No? Then we both have to see what probabilities (which stay logical) go towards, like you yourself said but then jumped again 'supposing out of nowhere' multiple universes exist which are illogical based on nothing'. Since there is One Truth, truth being affirmed using Logic and it's good for everybody since it's all in our Nature, let's check out the probabilities.

Ok, then please explain me the source of this logic around us? Explain the Logic behind logic (since we live in a logic world right now and use science as a path to find our way)? Including from where you got your own 'gift' of being able to see and understanding this logic around us and not animals like the rest on this planet. We don't live in an illogical universe, the proof, go ahead and do complete illogical stuff and you'll end up dead/sick/whatever quickly enough. Rule of survival, not a rule we ourselves put in place but is PART of our logical Universe imposed on us and all around. So how can you then, being a logical body yourself just like everything around, go and theorize on the existence of a logical universe when you're not even part of one?

There is One Truth, One Logic. When we say something is true, it is because Logic (out of where?) tells us it is and it is the same for anybody who uses that Logic. It's in our Nature. Those who are illogical are naturally eliminated by the 'universe'. Then maybe it's probable (since we always stick to probabilities which stay in the realm of Logic to find answers) that Logic is not completely in our nature, therefore not being able to say from where it's from with certainty, but 'part' of the universe around us because the source of Logic (the higher Logic) itself is out of this universe, a bigger entity. Only pure blinded atheists (not believing in anything else but themselves as source of logic by ignorance) are the ones being dogmatic and refusing all the 'probabilities' that go toward the existence of a being existence. At the present, atheists are acting more illogical than those who believe (judging from the amount of probabilities using Logic) in a bigger entity.

Does God Play Dice?
http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html

[Radical_Dreamer]

I read that article you linked, and it just confirmed what I'd known for a while: That there is no such thing as fate. Pray tell, how does that imply that there is a god of any sort? Professor Hawking refers to God playing dice, but that is in reference to the Einstein quote he mentions. He is not saying that there is, in fact, any god or gods.

Also, I fail to see how science is logically leading us to the belief in a god. You seem to understand the concept of "The god of the gaps"; that is, the belief that whatever we cannot explain, must be caused by a divinity. As you also seem to know, this is a fallacy, because as we learn more about the universe, these "gaps" fill in, leaving less and less places for the god of the gaps to be present. So if anything, logic tells us that, even if there is a god or gods, the universe operates completely independantly of their influence.

[Leebot]

Wow. I've read about four of your posts, Capo, and you've already proven yourself beyond help. If you can't understand the simple practice of a thought experiment or a hypothetical construct for the purpose of an argument (granted, most won't immediately figure it out from that term, but they understand the concept), I really don't know what I can do to help you. All I can say is try not to screw the rest of the world up too badly.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Capo, though I did agree with some of your points, can you please summarise your views in one clear concise sentence. Here is mine: God exists, so does science.
Wooaaaahhh!!!!

[Salvadeiro]

I'm catholic so yes, I believe in god.  Some things bug me out, and religion sort of explains it, however, there is only one god, although there are hundreds of religions.  In my family, we have plenty of catholics, and muslims, jews, and like two atheists, so I'm only speaking my perspective.

[Burning Zeppelin]

One God, One Religion (Judaism and Christianity are pretty much the same as Islam)

[Lordchander]

Well, I only truly believe in God as in Christianity because its the one thing ive always known: I was brought up in a Christian family and im in a Christian school, so the teachings that God is here have been preached to me for years. It's kinda something you cant escape, yet I dont want to escape it at all! Ive seen and heard of miracle healins, that I think comes down to faith, continual believing, and no matter if u think that there is a God but no faith, you are wrong, just knowing that there is a God and repeatadly telling ppl there is one is a sign that u have faith and would not turn away from God. I would never turn away from God. Ive read too much in the Bible and heard too much to not belive in God.

And I basically think that all other religions are generally based around God, but they use the different forms of God, such as Zeus and Ra and Odin and such, they are all just a form of God but drawn into a culture and language.

[Lord J Esq]

Well, I only truly believe in God as in Christianity because its the one thing ive always known: I was brought up in a Christian family and im in a Christian school, so the teachings that God is here have been preached to me for years. ... And I basically think that all other religions are generally based around God, but they use the different forms of God, such as Zeus and Ra and Odin and such, they are all just a form of God but drawn into a culture and language.

If you believe that all other religions are generally based around the same divine figure, then the possibility remains that certain religions, which shall not be named, have corrupted this common image for their own gain. Who's to say which those religions might be? Maybe none of 'em. Maybe all. Maybe yours.

Ah, but what am I saying? As long as you're voting Democrat and not oppressing women, I don't care what your religion is. =)

[Tonjevic]

Firstly, and most importantly, lets not get into political preferences; it can get nasty.
Secondly, Odin, Zeus and Ra do not apply to this facet of the debate because the 'one' god that we are talking about is the figurehead in our monotheistic culture of today.
Odin, Zeus, Ra, Neptune, and so on and so forth are all parts of polytheistic religions which have been dormant for over a thousand years. At one time, I will add, although it's unrelatedm the 'Pagans' (non-christians) and polyteistic cultures of the past were the majority and christians were driven underground and hated, until of course the roman empire became christian.