Poll

Do You Believe in "God"?

Yes. I Believe in a Supernatural Entity(s).
21 (58.3%)
No. I Don't Believe in a Supernatural Entity(s).
7 (19.4%)
Maybe?
5 (13.9%)
No. Man is "God".
3 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Voting closed: October 30, 2005, 08:44:48 pm

Author Topic: Do You Believe in "God"?  (Read 38951 times)

Leebot

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« Reply #195 on: December 19, 2005, 11:02:11 pm »
Quote from: Capo
(in reality 12thconsidering the Sun and our own Moon are really planets of their own)


Okay, before I slam my head into the table one more time, what's your justification for this claim?

Now, about the tenth planet, go and check on what the measurements of Voyager 2 showed. Basically, they showed that what we though were anomalies were just inaccurate measurements. There in fact are no perterbations of planetary orbits that would necessitate a tenth planet to explain them.

And now, to prove you haven't actually been paying attention to science or the news media in the last year. Early this year, while scouring images taken back in 2003 (give these guys a break, they've got a lot to work on), astronomers were astonished to find an object in the Kuiper Belt, orbiting our sun, which is larger than Pluto. We may have to redefine the term "planet," but if Pluto is a planet, this object (referenced as 2003 UB313 and nicknamed "Xena") would have to be a planet as well.
But remember that it doesn't fit into any of your claims about the tenth planet.

Now, onto the more religious point:

Quote
Also remark, the answer was right in front of us all this time. In the very beignning of the Bible (itself coming from the ancient scriptures of Sumeria), it is written,

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

What we call Logic in other words, IS God. The Logos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos


And on another note, which single person in all History of humanity claimed being 'God' (Logic) incarnated and left his very present mark which endured time itself so that everybody knows who he is if you say his name even today 'about 2000' years later, all while fulfilling the prohecies of a Messiah written 800 years before his coming, a very wise (actually as wise as can be) being literally out of TIME? Jesus, Isa, Yeshua, no matter his name, you know who I'm talking about. He arrived in that time in the past to leave his mark and push people to start using Logic more (reason why he blasted the priests themselves even if they were following by the letter what was written without themselves THINKING for example). And he will return in the future definitely because he is OUTSIDE of time. And what do ALL the prophecies push towards? Mayas and Hopi end their mathematical calendar on December 21st, 2012. The prophecies about the popes ('given by an angel/vision outside of time, seeing past present future) put the present pope as before last the next is supposed to be 'bad' and final. Nostradamus, coincides to our time also. Revelations, the same thing. Just go read them for yourselves, what is the probability that ALL of them coincide. You said it.


"The Bible says so" is not proof. It's not even evidence. It's hearsay at best, myth at worst. Give me an empirical reason to believe this, or else your pleas for faith will fall on secular ears.

Now, as for the prophecies you referenced, very few of them actually give a definitive time that scholars agree upon (rough translations and cryptic writing, you know). Also, a lot of scheduled dates for the apocalypse have already passed eventless.

Now, have you ever heard of the multiple endpoints theorem? Basically, it says that if you look for something specific, you have a low chance of finding it. But if you look for something general, you have a high chance of finding it. How this applies is if you were to pick four doomsday prophecies at random, and see if they all agree on the exact time of doomsday, it would be a significant finding. But if you scour every prediction ever made and find four that give roughly the same time, it means nothing. You had a good chance of finding that from the get-go.

I'd like to specifically address your comment about Revelations, as this is the only one I know about already. The fact about this is that Revelations gives no time estimate whatsoever for when the apocalypse will take place. There is a reference in the Bible, however, to around the year 2000 being the end of an era and the beginning of the age of Aquarius (sorry, I forget what it was before. Whatever comes right before on the Zodiac calendar). The previous era was one with the philosophy that humanity needed to be led. This era is one where humanity has to think for itself and make its own way. Ironically, if this is true, it actually could be an end to religion in the world.

Zaperking

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« Reply #196 on: December 20, 2005, 12:42:19 am »
Some famous guy from history (I  forgot his name but I saw it in a documentary, it was either galaleo or some famous guy to do with gravity, or space in the 16th century), who did alchemy to find out "God's code" said that revelations pointed towards the apocalypse being in 2060. I think it was Newton.

Mystik3eb

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« Reply #197 on: December 20, 2005, 03:07:21 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Some famous guy from history (I  forgot his name but I saw it in a documentary, it was either galaleo or some famous guy to do with gravity, or space in the 16th century), who did alchemy to find out "God's code" said that revelations pointed towards the apocalypse being in 2060. I think it was Newton.


When I was religious, I personally believed the Second Coming/Apocalypse would be sometime between 2030-2070. So I suppose I would've agreed with him.

Tonjevic

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« Reply #198 on: December 20, 2005, 04:58:06 am »
Zaperking:
It was, in fact, Newton who said that.

Leebot:
A planet is widely defined as a major body orbiting a solar body, as you stated, there is no real definition of how large a major body IS. I just wanted to clarify what a planet is.
We cant go defining any old satellite (the moon) as a planet, because it would  be unscientific. The moon is actually just that: A moon.
Likewise, the sun cannot be a planet because it is a sun: that which planets have to orbit around to BE planets.

I object to your categorical denial that there is an iota of truth in the Bible.
While i agree with you here, I feel that that was over generalisation. Even if that was fantasy, and that most of the bible is, I believe that there is some truth in it.

And lastly to the official inkeeper on jesus teaching logic:
The bible says that jesus taught people to love eachother, to be friends, to not kill eachother, and that there would be a kingdom of heaven coming, there is nothing to say that jesus taught the people to use logic more.
Your continued association of logic with god is horribly flawed in that the church has opposed science every step of the way (contraception, the earth being round, all sorts of heretical ideas regarding physics, etc.).
Also on this topic, you said there was first logos and god and logos are the same. logos (greek), while mainly meaning word, but also meaning reason, logic and various other things, can be taken literally as you have or it can be more dynamic. I believe (as do many others)that religion, although I am not religious myself, must have meaning taken from it, not to be literally used. Only in this way can religion be useful and all the rhetoric and persuasia (i just oined a new term!) discarded. Thus logos could be defined as the holy spirit; First there was the holy spirit (an entity capable of reasoning, logical thought and speech). Then there was god. God IS the holy spirit. This is better than: first there was logic, then god. god is logic.
But then, the point is rather moot anyway. Who are we to say that that part is true? Why is IT right and all the other relgions wrong? If you ask a person who is religious they will probably say something along the lines of, 'Becasue our god is the one true god! all the others suck!'

Leebot

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« Reply #199 on: December 20, 2005, 11:25:40 am »
Quote
I object to your categorical denial that there is an iota of truth in the Bible.


Whoa there, hold on. I never said that there wasn't any truth in it, I'm just saying that it on its own doesn't count as any form of evidence. We know from other historical evidence that there actually was a man named Jesus Christ (although Yeshua is closer to how he was named at the time). So, the Bible had something right there. What the Bible leaves out is that he was married to Mary Magdalene (who was not a prostitute), and they actually had at least one child. (Not relevent here, really, just a neat point.)

On the other hand, the Bible has a ton of stories in it that are most likely fiction. Some of them fly right in the face of known science, without it even being a miracle from God/Jesus. They were just wrong about how science worked, and used their incorrect assumption in writing some of the stories.

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« Reply #200 on: December 20, 2005, 09:39:46 pm »
Quote
Okay, before I slam my head into the table one more time, what's your justification for this claim?


Go ahead and slam your head on the table Mr Know-It-All haha, here's my justification. You better catch up on what you 'think' or blindly 'believe' is true.

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/moonpr1.htm

If it comes from this planet and has a core, it's considered as a 'planet.

As for the Sun....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet

Do you know what is considered a planet 100%?

Quote
Much like "continent", "planet" is a word without a precise definition, with history and culture playing as much of a role as geology and astrophysics. Recent definitions have been vague and imprecise; The American Heritage Dictionary, for instance, formerly defined a planet as:


Quote
A planet is any body in the solar system that is more massive than the total mass of all of the other bodies in a similar orbit

Which is why the anciens INCLUDED the Sun as a planet too.

Which is why the ancient considered the Sun as a planet too. Planet is a definition, people today don't even fully agree on a definition so who are you to say what the ancient considered as a planet and put in their very drawings AND writings talking about the sun itself. You have to put yourself in the concept that was agreed on at its time, and at its time, the sumerians considered the Sun as a planet also, as for the moon well you already saw, it CAN be considered as a planet of its own orbiting the Earth and the sumerians knew that very well.

Quote
Now, about the tenth planet, go and check on what the measurements of Voyager 2 showed. Basically, they showed that what we though were anomalies were just inaccurate measurements. There in fact are no perterbations of planetary orbits that would necessitate a tenth planet to explain them.


There ARE anomalies or else why do you think an astronomer in 2003 would be theorizing and making a schematic on his very real calculations and observations, it's HIS job and HE knows how to do it.. What the hell are you talking about? You seem so certain of your uncertainty, you should've become an astronomer maybe? Then I'd be more willing to accept what you sya as if it's your job.

Quote
And now, to prove you haven't actually been paying attention to science or the news media in the last year. Early this year, while scouring images taken back in 2003 (give these guys a break, they've got a lot to work on), astronomers were astonished to find an object in the Kuiper Belt, orbiting our sun, which is larger than Pluto. We may have to redefine the term "planet," but if Pluto is a planet, this object (referenced as 2003 UB313 and nicknamed "Xena") would have to be a planet as well.
But remember that it doesn't fit into any of your claims about the tenth planet.


It WASN'T Xena they were talking about because Xena DOESN'T have the orbit that the astronomer in France had found from his own calculations.



You're mixing just about ANYTHING in there to justify exactly that, anything. :roll: Yes, Xena DOES exist but from the astronomer calculations and from NASA's own reports there IS something further than Plato. Stichin had even met NASA astronomer Dr. Richard Harrington and both their deparate discoveries completed eachother WITHOUT contradicting anything. Even Immanuel Velikovsky, the same guy who got proved RIGHT many times about his calculations about Venus talked exactly about that a not yet discovered planet existing in our solar system. Go read it before you judge on it, because ifyou're just doing that, you're wasting ALL of our time.

http://xfacts.com/planetx_search.html

Yes Xena exists. So? You get on with the recent discoveries of NASA And what Dr. Harrington himself had found. Including that July discovery that the rocks in the asteroid belt have the EXACT composants as the composants Earth has. Even the Sumerians had the answer to that and it holds together up to now...

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=108404
http://www.sitchin.com/

Quote
"The Bible says so" is not proof. It's not even evidence. It's hearsay at best, myth at worst. Give me an empirical reason to believe this, or else your pleas for faith will fall on secular ears.


Empirical reason, WTF? Science itself is based on never being sure of what you know so that science can advance, benefit of doubt. You're contradicting your veyr self. If science had ALWAYS been sure of it's discoveries we would be still sitting on our asses right now thinking the Earth is flat while still having the zodiac symbols from the past.. You can judge yourself, are there things the Bible has written which up to now we know are true and real, yes, historically and naturally. Are there also things we still don't know? Of course! It even says itself WE arent supposed to know everything until the very end. As for are there falsities, up to now, NONE. None as if the Bible had written something completely false like water is not liqiud and where we wouldve discovered water IS liquid. There are NO contradictions up to now. Science IS always playing with probabilities and advancing in a sphere of Logic. Has the Bible been outwright wrong up to now, NO. It's for you to judge, if YOU want to 'magically' believe that everything is false without the benefit of doubt sitll existing for many reasons which do exist (truths, archeological and all that we have found up to now), that's up to YOU and only YOU. YOU are the one to 'magically' believe all is false without reasons.

Quote
Now, as for the prophecies you referenced, very few of them actually give a definitive time that scholars agree upon (rough translations and cryptic writing, you know). Also, a lot of scheduled dates for the apocalypse have already passed eventless.


Very few of them give a definitve time, comon, you know how to recognize things and judge from the very amount of 'coincidences' that make it fit together. How much 'coincidence' can you have when the Mayan calendar and Hopi (two tribes very far apart) both have the end of their very strong mathematical calendar on the date of December 2012, the pope prophecies putting this pope as before last, Nostradamus.... Comon, it's just luck again for you? All is luck then? It's also luck you're talking to me? Luck that you're in front of a pc? Cant you judge yourself when things fit in on MANY things, what are the probabilities on that?


Quote
Now, have you ever heard of the multiple endpoints theorem? Basically, it says that if you look for something specific, you have a low chance of finding it. But if you look for something general, you have a high chance of finding it. How this applies is if you were to pick four doomsday prophecies at random, and see if they all agree on the exact time of doomsday, it would be a significant finding. But if you scour every prediction ever made and find four that give roughly the same time, it means nothing. You had a good chance of finding that from the get-go.


You don't understand. The Mayan and Hopi tribe, have their VERY strong mathematical calendar (even for our time) with the end date on 2012 and they fit in on EVERYTHING wether it is Zodiac signs, new Ages, seasons, the way stars are placed at several times, ALL. Then you got the other prophecies about the pope which have been KNOW for centuries and which place OUR pope NOW as the before last and all of the past popes also fit. Nostradamus also fitting it with our time. Comon, did you even go and read them for yourself? Tell me how much probabilities you have of all of that fitting together? You understand that after 2012, both the Mayan, Hopis, St Malachy (since the next pope will not be coming so far, he's the NEXT and final), Revelations, would be over. After 2012, it there's nothing true, they're ALL untrue... You judge from the probabilities of all of them fitting together. You think the Mayans didnt know mathematically what they were doing? Why? Are you basing yourself on anything?

Quote
I'd like to specifically address your comment about Revelations, as this is the only one I know about already. The fact about this is that Revelations gives no time estimate whatsoever for when the apocalypse will take place. There is a reference in the Bible, however, to around the year 2000 being the end of an era and the beginning of the age of Aquarius (sorry, I forget what it was before. Whatever comes right before on the Zodiac calendar). The previous era was one with the philosophy that humanity needed to be led. This era is one where humanity has to think for itself and make its own way. Ironically, if this is true, it actually could be an end to religion in the world.


You said it, just like the Mayans, Hopis prophecisez, the next age is a Golden one for all the prophecies. Religion wont have to blindly exist because EVERYBODY in it will just KNOW who 'God' is. If you've got 'God' in front of you, you dont need to maybe think, is it true, is it not true, it just IS. You're right about that part, all the prophecies say the same thing that religion as we know today will end but it will BE. As for why that date is in the Mayan Calendar, it is EXACTLY because the start of the Age of Aquarius is on December 21, 2012. I'm not the one inventing it. It's known everywhere. Again, why does it fit? You realize that this is a ONCE in a thousand years opportunity, what are the probabilities that all of these fit...

http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/maya.htm

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« Reply #201 on: December 20, 2005, 09:46:55 pm »
Quote
Whoa there, hold on. I never said that there wasn't any truth in it, I'm just saying that it on its own doesn't count as any form of evidence. We know from other historical evidence that there actually was a man named Jesus Christ (although Yeshua is closer to how he was named at the time). So, the Bible had something right there. What the Bible leaves out is that he was married to Mary Magdalene (who was not a prostitute), and they actually had at least one child. (Not relevent here, really, just a neat point.)


Historical evidence on Jesus being married and both of them having a child? I give you the benefit of doubt, but I tried doing some research and this is what I found:

Quote
Karen Leigh King, a Harvard professor who is the world’s leading authority on early Christian texts about Mary Magdalene, gives “The DaVinci Code” a thumbs-up--but only as fiction. (“It’s a good read but historically way off.”)


Where's your 'evidence' for this as the apostles never talked about any child, nobody 'remembers' as a social memory Jesus associated with having had a child and I don't see how Jesus would've had anything to hide if you gave exactly that (EVERYTHING) in the end with no secrets.. I'ts a neat point if you say so, but NOTHING shows me it's right except only you saying it..

Quote
On the other hand, the Bible has a ton of stories in it that are most likely fiction. Some of them fly right in the face of known science, without it even being a miracle from God/Jesus. They were just wrong about how science worked, and used their incorrect assumption in writing some of the stories.


Most likely fiction? You don't seem sure of your own judgement. Maybe you mean, it's MAYBE fiction? Then I might as well also say MAYBE it IS real? About the 'they' you are saying, you're right, those who wrote about his 'miracles' didnt know how to interpret them because it was OUT of their Logic, out of their grasp of knowledge, which is why Jesus was LITERALLY, OUT OF HIS TIME. With time you can discover what his miracles were, but there are some which are still unexplainable but since EVERYTHING is explainable, someday they will be. God IS Logic, the Logos and in that sense Jesus/Yeshua/Isa, was the son of Logic itself, the Logic of our universe as we perceive it in the 3d which explains why he had SO MUCH knowledge for his time, he had THE knowledge.

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« Reply #202 on: December 20, 2005, 09:48:55 pm »
Quote
When I was religious, I personally believed the Second Coming/Apocalypse would be sometime between 2030-2070. So I suppose I would've agreed with him.


Enough said. You don't incarnate Logic by your own Nature.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #203 on: December 20, 2005, 09:49:07 pm »
I disagree. The Bible does contain statements that are factually and verifiably false.

Quote from: Leviticus
11:5  And the coney, because he cheweth the cud , but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

11:6  And the hare, because he cheweth the cud , but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.


This is incorrect, the coney and the hare are not ruminants; they do not chew their cud.

Quote from: Leviticus
11:13  And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

...

11:19  And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.


Bat are not birds, they are mammals, yet the Bible lists them as birds. There are others, but I think this should show that the Bible has indeed made statements that were discovered to be false.

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« Reply #204 on: December 20, 2005, 10:02:01 pm »
["Leviticus"]11:5  And the coney, because he cheweth the cud , but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

11:6  And the hare, because he cheweth the cud , but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

Quote
This is incorrect, the coney and the hare are not ruminants; they do not chew their cud.


And this comes from the Hebrew version or just a manly translated version of it with the change of words coming in it also? It is 100% sure as being trustable that it is EXACTLY as what the original itself meant? Maybe you think it is 100% sure NOBODY could've been wrong translating things? Just like they did with Nefilim translating the term into Giant while the hebrew word literally means 'beings fallen from the sky'. Are you 100% sure yourself of what you're putting your trust into as being the truth and only but THE truth?

Quote
["Leviticus"]11:13  And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

...

11:19  And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.


Bat are not birds, they are mammals, yet the Bible lists them as birds. There are others, but I think this should show that the Bible has indeed made statements that were discovered to be false.[/quote]

Same thing, I said. It's not EVEN the original. So how the hell can you say ALL the scriptures are false. You usually have to go read EVERY (or the mainly BIG and popular and agreed on) versions of the Bible to put a judgment on it. Now you just picked ONe and say, look, it's ALL false because of this one.  :roll: Comon.

Luminaire85

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« Reply #205 on: December 20, 2005, 10:18:11 pm »
Quote from: Capo
It is 100% sure as being trustable that it is EXACTLY as what the original itself meant? Maybe you think it is 100% sure NOBODY could've been wrong translating things?

This is funny coming from you, Capo. In the above statement you have admitted that translations of ancient texts can be erroneous. Why, then, should I believe Sitchin's translations of the Sumerian tablets?

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #206 on: December 20, 2005, 10:39:41 pm »
To address your points, I researched the hare claim. The original Hebrew does refer to hares chewing their cud. Whether in modern English or ancient Hebrew, hares do not chew their cud. This is factually incorrect in the original text of the Bible. I am not saying, however, that everything in the Bible is factually incorrect. I am saying that not everything in the Bible is factually correct. Big difference.

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« Reply #207 on: December 20, 2005, 11:54:24 pm »
Ah the horrors of simplification and vandalism to works of great literature and knowledge.
You're on your own here Capo. I've had enough of a beef with Lord J.

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« Reply #208 on: December 21, 2005, 12:36:01 am »
Okay, I've officially reached the point where Capo is spewing out BS faster than I can debunk it, so I'll just make one stupid point here.

Quote from: Capo
Luck that you're in front of a pc?


It's a laptop, not a PC. PWNED!

But anyways, a few points, more for the benefit of others than you. The chance of everything being precisely the way it is? 1/infinity, or virtually zero. The chance of it being someway (given that something does exist)? 100%. The chance of any particular way? 1/infinity. You see what I'm getting at here? Just because it's improbably doesn't mean it's surprising.

If I take out my calculator and have it generate a random number between 1 and 1 trillion, would you be surprised if it generated 943597402493 (which it just did)? What if it generated 1? 1 trillion? Then you might be surprised, even though it's the same probability. However, if I generate a random number one trillion times, there's a ~63.2% chance I'll generate 1 at least once, so then it isn't surprising.

Now, onto the specifics of what you said. I checked, and the Hopi prophecy gives 2011, not 2012. Close, but no cigar. Even if it were the same day, there's a simple explanation: It's the date of an extremely rare astrological event, when the sun crosses the intersection of the ecliptic and the dark rift. The Mayans obviously calculated this, so it's plausible other cultures could as well. That's irrelevent though, as if it were really true, you'd expect more than one culture to hit the exact date.

Now, about planetary classifications, I checked the links you gave, and it in fact does turn out that they confirm what I said. A planet, in the broadest sense, is a spherical body that directly orbits a star and is not a star itself. So, the moon is out as it doesn't directly orbit the sun, and the sun is out because it's a star itself.

Now, about Planet X. Not every scientist is completely up to date with everything in their field, and it's saddeningly common for some to simply ignore data that doesn't coincide with their views. Just read this: http://www.nineplanets.org/hypo.html#planetx and come back. There have been a ton of theories and calculations for where the tenth (or ninth way back when) planet would be, but they were all wrong. I'm not sure what this French guy is doing wrong, as I'm not an astronomer myself and haven't studied all the data, but he's likely just using outdated data.

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« Reply #209 on: December 21, 2005, 12:41:26 am »
Quote from: Luminaire85
Quote from: Capo
It is 100% sure as being trustable that it is EXACTLY as what the original itself meant? Maybe you think it is 100% sure NOBODY could've been wrong translating things?

This is funny coming from you, Capo. In the above statement you have admitted that translations of ancient texts can be erroneous. Why, then, should I believe Sitchin's translations of the Sumerian tablets?


Was I right, or was I right? About translation things, I mean.

Quote from: Capo
Quote from: Mystik3eb
When I was religious, I personally believed the Second Coming/Apocalypse would be sometime between 2030-2070. So I suppose I would've agreed with him.



Enough said. You don't incarnate Logic by your own Nature.


...er...what? Since when did Faith = Logic? That's my biggest problem with all your arguments. You're trying to tell us that your faith is logically correct...when it's not. It's not logically incorrect, but there is no proof, or we'd have far fewer athiests today. Notice that most athiests are very educated people. Sure, maybe it's simply that they become too caught up in the pride of them being smart enough to decide things on their own and not based on...whatever. But if there was a logical explanation for religious beliefs, than the number of people leaving religion for athiestic beliefs would not be increasing at an accelerated rate each year.

As a result, your religious beliefs are overall not logical. At least not yet.