Poll

Do You Believe in "God"?

Yes. I Believe in a Supernatural Entity(s).
21 (58.3%)
No. I Don't Believe in a Supernatural Entity(s).
7 (19.4%)
Maybe?
5 (13.9%)
No. Man is "God".
3 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Voting closed: October 30, 2005, 08:44:48 pm

Author Topic: Do You Believe in "God"?  (Read 38918 times)

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #225 on: October 18, 2006, 06:12:27 am »
Hm, maybe it would of been better if god put in brackets what was literal and what was figurative after every line :P

Lord J Esq

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #226 on: October 18, 2006, 06:48:11 am »
Hm, maybe it would of been better if god put in brackets what was literal and what was figurative after every line :P

That's blasphemy.

cupn00dles

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #227 on: October 18, 2006, 02:30:52 pm »
Nah, I don't believe in gawd. The idea of a big bearded dude deciding to make a world one day just cracks me up. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang_theory

Big bang, people. Big bang.

The the Big Bang theory, unless I'm confused, was thought up by a priest.

That implies neither theism nor deism.
It just implies that priests aren't stupid, thoughtless idiots.

No, it implies that they are smart, thoughtful geniuses.

You are both wrong. It implies nothing about priests or the universe in general.

You are all right and wrong. It implies everything about nothing, nothing about everything, everything about everything and nothing about nothing.

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #228 on: October 18, 2006, 06:40:34 pm »
What it implies is that the Big Bang and religion are not two opposing viewpoints. You can say 'maybe the priest wasn't religious anymore', but that is a minority assumption. If he is a priest, it is most likely that he was religious. That is the simplest view. And if he is, it shows that religion and science have not always been, nor needn't always be, opposed (in fact, that 'opposition' is just a construct of the last 100 years. After all, some of the deepest thinkers of history, say in ancient Greece, were deeply religious, even while they questioned religion itself.)

The reason I said that is because someone said, instead of believing in God, that they believe in the Big Bang. But that means nothing. I believe in God, but also in the Big Bang.

You can't do stuff like that without opening a big can of worms. When you start picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you want to take literally, and which parts you want to construe as figurative, a big logical gap opens up: The Bible itself does not provide for such freedom of interpretation, so on whose authority do you declare parts of it to be literal and others not?

If the creation story is not literal, then what about Christ's virginal birth? What about his resurrection? What about the sun standing still in the sky? The five loaves of bread and two fish? Healing the sick? Heaven and Hell? The Trinity itself?

Reasonable minds would look at this book and see all sorts of fibs and make-believe. But the devout cannot give in to that temptation, at least not very much, because it undermines their own worldview. And so good people like you tend to get caught in between...compelled to be reasonable, yet bound not to be.

So, even though religious figures have always been capable of making scientific discoveries, such as was discussed above, they are always constrained in the end. The Big Bang theory, to the extent that it does tread upon Scripture--and it does, unless you are willing to take a big plunge about the Bible's literal veracity--this theory is irreconcilable with the creation story. That the main reason why these scientific fields like cosmology and biology are controversial at all.

The Bible has always allowed such interpretation. I suppose you're not familiar with its construction and origins, but its existance is due to selectivity.

It is irreconcilable in the same way that the Babylonian stories are irreconcilable as well. I know exactly where my beliefs come from. I know full well that the dogma I hold to has been picked and chosen by scholars and theologians througout the ages. Why don't we Lutherans have books 13 and 14 of Daniel, after all? Why not Esdras, or the Book of Jubilees? Maccabees? They DO exist, but were removed. And heck, why not the, oh, Book of the Nazarenes, and multiple other Gnostic works (the famous 'Book of Judas' was nothing new, after all. Those works have been around since the second century AD)? The construction of the Bible as it stands is a very long and convoluted story. Some people will in fact say that what now stands as orthodox Christianity is merely the heresy that won.

Yes, Lord J, the devout can give into that temptation of being discerning. In fact, I was talking the other day to a friend of my father who is a pastor (and a very devout one at that) about pre-history and all that, and he put on a serious face, imitating an old-fashioned preacher, saying 'young man, this isn't what the Bible says. If you start thinking like this, it is the path to paganism!' It was a joke, of course. In my circles, we're careful about what we take literally, in the same way that one must be careful about taking ANY literature literally. Why not, and how do you know what to trust? A perfectly good question. It is less what story, or what event to trust, rather than what meaning or intent to trust. This isn't anything new at all, though. Here I'm referring mainly to the Old Tesament (specifcially the Creation account and the like.)

You see, when Plato tells his stories, whether about Atlantis, or Socrates, or whatever, those aren't true. They're lies, when it comes right down to it. Atlantis never was, and likely as not that is not Socrates speaking, but Plato himself using Socrates as a figure (in the selfsame way that the book of Ecclesiastes uses Solomon as the proverbial wise teacher, though the books itself was written inter-testamentally, hundreds of years after his time.) Any philosopher or techer will tell lies (or better to name them stories) to get the point across. The logical or historical veracity of these stories in literature is meaningless. The intent of what it is saying is what we cling to, and where the importance lies. I can bring up countless examples from all of history and mythology. Say for example the contradictions between Sophocles and Homer on the points of the Theban saga: the former has the hero gouging out his eyes, the latter speaks of him dying in battle. But does this suddenly make Sophocles untrustworthy? Well, maybe on 'historical' grounds, but it was never meant to be a historical account. In fact, he varies the facts knowingly to suit the story, to bring across his point and idea. That is the exact same thing you must apply to the Bible. If you were to judge it like a history book, you are doing so out of ignorance, not dissimilar from the people who take it to be fact out of ignorance. Yeah, the sun stood still over the valley of whatever; and the sun went dark when Atreus killed his brother's children, too! Factuality aside, there's a powerful story and meaning in each.

And that is the mistake you are making. You are treating the Bible as a supposed 'handbook to history' (okay, so some Christians might take it as such, but they are mistaken.) But it isn't history at all. It's literature, and is as true as Hamlet is, as true as Oedipus is. If you would judge the Bible on its historical veracity, I would ask you to kindly apply the same measure, and thus the same scorn, to Homer, to Hesiod, and most every other work of literature that has 'lied' about the facts. The dilemma you have run into is looking at these things with a purely modern mind. You have it all out of context. Things in ancient days were not written to be 'factual accounts' as we have now. Our understanding of what makes history comes from the likes of Herodotos, from the Greeks, and our idea of 'truth being in the facts' is very modern. If you really want to understand the literature, you must look at it as it was written. Truth is not always in the facts. It can be in ideas. And THAT is what is at work there, and that is why things like the Big Bang do not contradict the Bible. Much of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, amounts to a truth of ideas; the Big Bang is the truth of fact and history.

Now, in all that there are certain things that I have chosen to believe that seem absurd to you. That orthodox dogma I know is one that is selective, but I know where it comes from, and know where it stands amongst other things. This is particularly to the New Testament, which has the virtue of being unconstrained by the more mythical and eastern styles that exist in the Old. The New has the virtue of being built off the Greek Hellenistic foundation which is inherently more rational than the eastern. It too, however, is in some measure a product of its times. Philisophically, Paul speaks much like a Stoic, after all. Many of the sketchy moralistic comments are, likewise, products of typical feeling of the era - whether Greek, or Roman. It was able to advance on a few (the advent of Christianity, for example, brought into disfavour the old Roman tradition of a woman who had been raped killing herself because of her shame), but could not be too radical on all fronts. I know precisely where my beleifs stand in the context of things, and know that I have conciously CHOSEN to believe certain things, which is a far cry from being blind.

However, I would still warn you against thinking yourself reasonable in the face of irrationality. 'Science' itself is not pure, and much of what you know is in fact taken on faith. Have you tested the speed of light yourself? How do you know it is constant: because Einstein said so? How about Evolution? Have you tested this? Have you proven what is and what is not yourself? Of course not! These things are a matter of faith. You place your trust in teachers (or, maybe, your ability to be systematic in approaching it; yet one can a systematic theologian as well.) It is not much different than what the religious believe when it comes right down to it. To stand by anything like that too strongly is religious zeal of a fashion. Because, as much as you might not like this, people cannot ever be wholly reasonable. Even science has its dogmas, and even you have your blind faiths. That is what it is to be human, Lord J. When you believe in the Big Bang, you believe in an event one hundred million lifetimes ago, that we can only barely see the echoes of - never the event itself, only the results. Is that not faith? And if the extrapolation backwards seems reasonable, remember the manifold theories that have seemed reasonable that have been disproven. There is very much less reason in the human mind than you think, and if it is dangerous to have blind faith in God, it is equally dangerous to have blind faith in ones self, or humanity.

Eyes always open.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 06:50:15 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Corey Taylor

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #229 on: October 18, 2006, 08:32:05 pm »
I didn't mean to bring this topic back up and start another monster discussion.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #230 on: October 25, 2006, 05:29:35 am »
What it implies is that the Big Bang and religion are not two opposing viewpoints. You can say 'maybe the priest wasn't religious anymore', but that is a minority assumption. If he is a priest, it is most likely that he was religious. That is the simplest view. And if he is, it shows that religion and science have not always been, nor needn't always be, opposed (in fact, that 'opposition' is just a construct of the last 100 years. After all, some of the deepest thinkers of history, say in ancient Greece, were deeply religious, even while they questioned religion itself.)

The reason I said that is because someone said, instead of believing in God, that they believe in the Big Bang. But that means nothing. I believe in God, but also in the Big Bang.

You can't do stuff like that without opening a big can of worms. When you start picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you want to take literally, and which parts you want to construe as figurative, a big logical gap opens up: The Bible itself does not provide for such freedom of interpretation, so on whose authority do you declare parts of it to be literal and others not?

If the creation story is not literal, then what about Christ's virginal birth? What about his resurrection? What about the sun standing still in the sky? The five loaves of bread and two fish? Healing the sick? Heaven and Hell? The Trinity itself?

Reasonable minds would look at this book and see all sorts of fibs and make-believe. But the devout cannot give in to that temptation, at least not very much, because it undermines their own worldview. And so good people like you tend to get caught in between...compelled to be reasonable, yet bound not to be.

So, even though religious figures have always been capable of making scientific discoveries, such as was discussed above, they are always constrained in the end. The Big Bang theory, to the extent that it does tread upon Scripture--and it does, unless you are willing to take a big plunge about the Bible's literal veracity--this theory is irreconcilable with the creation story. That the main reason why these scientific fields like cosmology and biology are controversial at all.

The Bible has always allowed such interpretation. I suppose you're not familiar with its construction and origins, but its existance is due to selectivity.

Ah…I didn’t realize you had replied to me. I missed it somehow; thanks for taking the time to write back and suggest I’m not familiar with the hostile religion that has hijacked my country.

I’m sure you didn’t mean that. You were simply consoling yourself with the hope that I have not-nice things to say about your good book simply because I don’t understand it properly.

You’re too good a man for my relentless attacks, Daniel. You used to argue so politely, and now you’re so much more cynical. I feel bad about that. Despite being genuinely misguided about this whole religious subscription of yours, you are obviously more sane and pragmatic about the intricacies of your faith than many Christians.

I stand by my original point—your reply did little to address it—but in goodwill I concede our argument.

In my circles, we're careful about what we take literally, in the same way that one must be careful about taking ANY literature literally. Why not, and how do you know what to trust? A perfectly good question. It is less what story, or what event to trust, rather than what meaning or intent to trust.

That is a remarkably cogent point, one that already places you firmly above the typical unthinking Christian. I hope you continue to ponder this perfectly good question in the years to come. But ponder this too: If the Bible is ours to interpret, then how do you know your interpretation has the mark of veracity? Maybe that’s a simple question on the surface, but underneath it is insidious. How do you really know?

And that is the mistake you are making. You are treating the Bible as a supposed 'handbook to history' (okay, so some Christians might take it as such, but they are mistaken.) But it isn't history at all. It's literature, and is as true as Hamlet is, as true as Oedipus is.

It is not my mistake. This folly belongs to those who profess a literal belief in the Holy Bible. If you doubt the vast numerical advantage of these Christians with respect to all Christians, then you are looking down at your feet rather than up and all around you.

If you refuse to stand on the ground that the Bible contains literal truths, then that is a prudent decision. But your alternative claim—that biblical authority derives from a proper interpretation of scripture’s intent—is a claim without support.

I know precisely where my beleifs stand in the context of things, and know that I have conciously CHOSEN to believe certain things, which is a far cry from being blind.

Mortal choice…it proves nothing of the divine. What makes your decision to believe any more credible than the decisions of belief by mentally ill occultists who perceive supernatural energies floating all around them? Only numbers. Your only credibility is the authority of the majority. That might work in democracy, but it doesn’t relate to the real truth of things. And you don’t even bother to waste your time appealing to such an authority. Your strict Lutheranism puts you almost as much at odds with most Christians as I am. As far as I can tell, your only credibility is your word.

As an engineer, and a student of ancient Greece, you should know better than that.

However, I would still warn you against thinking yourself reasonable in the face of irrationality. 'Science' itself is not pure, and much of what you know is in fact taken on faith. Have you tested the speed of light yourself? How do you know it is constant: because Einstein said so? How about Evolution? Have you tested this? Have you proven what is and what is not yourself? Of course not! These things are a matter of faith.

All of these red herrings comprise the most intellectually bankrupt flank attack I have ever seen you attempt. I know you don’t truly believe what the words you have spoken in that passage, and so I will overlook them.

Because, as much as you might not like this, people cannot ever be wholly reasonable.

Rather, human beings are not presently omnipresent. You are mistaking our subjective experience for a lack of rationality.

When you believe in the Big Bang, you believe in an event one hundred million lifetimes ago, that we can only barely see the echoes of - never the event itself, only the results.

I do not believe in the Big Bang. Belief is the currency of faith, and I don’t deal in that dirty money. When I speak, I speak of persuasiveness, conviction, principle, reason, logic, and empirical evidence. When it comes to absolute assertions you have perhaps noticed how rarely I ever make those. My confident remarks are typically in the spirit of discrediting the claims of other people. I know better than to make claims of my own—and when I do, they are often very narrow. I only have a handful of broad truths to my name, and they don’t come up very often in places like this.

Your mind, as you are a religionist, is biased in a way that perhaps obstructs you from understanding that belief and faith are not the only way to proceed in our pursuit of the truth. The only leap of faith required by a person like me is a belief in my own cognition. The rest follows.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #231 on: October 25, 2006, 05:40:12 am »
Just wonder, what do you believe in, if not the Big Bang?

Lord J Esq

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #232 on: October 25, 2006, 05:59:41 am »
Must you always obstruct my replies to other people with throwaway lines? Give it a rest, my good man. The novelty of your inevitable retort wore out a long time ago.

cupn00dles

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #233 on: October 25, 2006, 01:01:07 pm »
Faith is unnecessary, obsolete. Faith leads one to believe that a determined event unfolded because of the influence of whatever entity, physical or metaphysical, one directs faith to, when in fact everything happens systematically through a chain of self-regulations that goes on constantly, naturally, innately, through the web of relationships that binds all of reality together.

Every thought, every action, every oscilation in the web of infinite potentials that people call universe, reality, life, are bound together and interdependant on each other. All is one and one is all.

You are your reality, regardless of beliefs, hopes, faiths. Faith serves as a comfort-giver for people who, for whatever reason, don't see that everything is their responsibility. When oneself is free of faith, he needs to feel superficially comfortable no more, for he achieves balance and is able to see that he is one with the universe and has always been, for indeed, one is all and all is one.


An that's Ching-Zhang Hua Tseng Lao Kung-fang quote on children who would piss inside his trash can.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #234 on: October 25, 2006, 06:31:45 pm »
On a related note, I recently picked up a copy of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". I haven't finished it yet, so I won't say much, but so far so good. To tide you over until I finish it and can make an informed statement on the work as a whole, here is a clip of Stephen Colbert interviewing Dawkins about the book on the Colbert Report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXpysYEhgA

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #235 on: October 26, 2006, 04:38:31 am »
Must you always obstruct my replies to other people with throwaway lines? Give it a rest, my good man. The novelty of your inevitable retort wore out a long time ago.
Yes, yes I must.
And judging by you ignoring my question completely, I'm assuming you believe the universe born out of your oh-so massive intellect and superiority.

Fuck you and your arrogance.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 04:40:33 am by Burning Zeppelin »

grey_the_angel

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #236 on: October 26, 2006, 05:18:33 am »
Must you always obstruct my replies to other people with throwaway lines? Give it a rest, my good man. The novelty of your inevitable retort wore out a long time ago.
Yes, yes I must.
And judging by you ignoring my question completely, I'm assuming you believe the universe born out of your oh-so massive intellect and superiority.

Fuck you and your arrogance.
Wait... you barely learned that Lord J has an ego now?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #237 on: October 26, 2006, 06:07:23 am »
Must you always obstruct my replies to other people with throwaway lines? Give it a rest, my good man. The novelty of your inevitable retort wore out a long time ago.
Yes, yes I must.
And judging by you ignoring my question completely, I'm assuming you believe the universe born out of your oh-so massive intellect and superiority.

Fuck you and your arrogance.
Wait... you barely learned that Lord J has an ego now?
Must you always obstruct my replies to other people with throwaway lines? Give it a rest, my good man. The novelty of your inevitable retort wore out a long time ago.
Yes, yes I must.
And judging by you ignoring my question completely, I'm assuming you believe the universe born out of your oh-so massive intellect and superiority.

Fuck you and your arrogance.
Wait... you barely learned that Lord J has an ego now?
No, but I usually decided to brush it off.

Hadriel

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #238 on: October 26, 2006, 07:46:19 am »
Quote
Just wonder, what do you believe in, if not the Big Bang?

You missed the point, man.  He doesn't believe in the Big Bang, he knows it happened because that's where the evidence leads.  A lot of people probably believe that it happened, but couldn't tell you the first thing about how the scientific community came to that conclusion.

Quote
On a related note, I recently picked up a copy of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". I haven't finished it yet, so I won't say much, but so far so good. To tide you over until I finish it and can make an informed statement on the work as a whole, here is a clip of Stephen Colbert interviewing Dawkins about the book on the Colbert Report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXpysYEhgA

Pretty good "interview."  Though I don't feel that it successfully encapsulated all of Dawkins' views on the subject.  Obviously, we've got time constraints to worry about with a TV show, but the point of a large amount of his writings isn't simply that he doesn't believe in God.  He believes that religion is an impediment to human progress and is destroying the fabric of society, even going so far as to support an evangelistic style of convincing people that atheism is correct.  I think that this is entirely justifiable, if for no other reason than for fairness' sake; we've got evangelists from just about every other viewpoint out there, after all.

However, I don't know how well that can work at this juncture.  Evangelism is like selling something, and speaking as someone whose job at this point is selling ads for the school paper, the only way to do that is to tell people what they want to hear.  A lot of people aren't going to like hearing that they aren't going anywhere after they die, and that the universe doesn't care about anyone or anything, because there's no design to it.  People want to feel special.  But on the other hand, Western religion often comes packaged with suppression of personal freedoms; in exchange for an eternity of bliss, you get to spend your mortal life miserable because you don't get to smoke pot, fuck your hot astronomy TA, or basically do anything that's even remotely fun.  If you're an atheist, you can.  Though I'd be careful.  Most of the natural science TAs I've seen are either ugly hoebags or dudes, and not cute ones, either.

There's also one thing that a lot of discussions on the subject fail to consider: lack of belief in a god doesn't make you a skeptic.  There are fairies, elves, ghosts, demons, vampires, UFOs, and plenty of other unsubstantiated phenomena to believe in.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Do You Believe in "God"?
« Reply #239 on: October 26, 2006, 03:43:54 pm »
There's also one thing that a lot of discussions on the subject fail to consider: lack of belief in a god doesn't make you a skeptic.  There are fairies, elves, ghosts, demons, vampires, UFOs, and plenty of other unsubstantiated phenomena to believe in.

But once you abandon religion for reason, it becomes more difficult to justify belief in any of those things, at least in the sense of the urban legend sense they usually take. Sure, there have been people throughout history who have consumed human blood, but they weren't killed by sunlight. And UFO are simply that: flying objects that are unidentified. There's no implicit origin.

Part of what Dawkins argues is that part of why religion is so destructive is because it is irrational and unreasonable. Once you overcome those stumbling blocks and escape religion, how do turn around and justify equally irrational beliefs, and what good comes of it if you do?