Religious discussion split from "Why did Porre Invade?&

[Radical_Dreamer]

I agree with Sentenal again. Rape, incest and damaging of mothers physical/mental or childs physical/mental health would warrant an abort. Maybe if in the period of 9 months if you go seriously finacially bad. But aborting because you "feel like it" and because you have rights...thats just bad pants

Of course, it's also bad pants to bring a child into the world that you are in no way (finacially, emotionally, intellectually, ect...) prepared to care for. That's why I'm pro-condoms. Hell, if I weren't so anti-government intervention, I'd almost say socialize contraceptives. Could only do good for the country.

[Burning Zeppelin]

I'm stupid. What do you mean socialize condoms?
And plus, did I come off as anti-contraceptives? Im not

[Silvercry]

Of course, it's also bad pants to bring a child into the world that you are in no way (finacially, emotionally, intellectually, ect...) prepared to care for.

So very true!  So why not simply not have sex until you reach a point in your life where you can take care of a child?

I mean seriously: where do babies come from?  Anybody?  Anybody at all?  Sex.  The sole purpose of sexual intercourse is to conceive children.  Period. End transmission. Everything else, how good it feels, how much fun it is, the foreplay, the kinky outfits you might wear, the way your significant other calls you daddy and pulls your hair when you’re getting it on is all well and good, but THAT’S NOT THE POINT.

Sex = baby. Not every time, of course. Its also not the sole reason many of us do it, but that doesn’t change its purpose. So why is there this shock when pregnancy occurs? Sure, we have ways of trying to prevent it, condoms and hormone manipulation to name a few. But Mother Nature has been doing this a little bit longer than we’ve been trying to stop it.

Do I sound insensitive? Good. Touchy-feely, politically correct “its ok to have sex, just be safe” BS is one of the major problems we have in this country.

Am I Pro-life? Not at all.   Pro-choice al the way. I just have a different decision point than most pro-choice people. I’m against abortion as a form of ‘birth control‘.  Rape. Incest.  Mother's life.  These are the only reasons to have an abortion.

The 20-something career woman who got too drunk at the Christmas party and got knocked up in the broom closet. Sorry, no sympathy for you. Have that kid. You knew the risks .  You knew the possible outcome.  You chose to ignore them and have sex.  

The 15 year old who had sex just so the guy will like her. I do feel sympathy for you. I’m sorry. The guys a bum (I’m not about to let the fathers off the hook here, see below). Have the kid anyway. You knew the risks .  You knew the possible outcome.  You chose (there's that word again)  to ignore them and have sex.  There are thousands of childless couples out there that would gladly take care of the baby for you. Yes, you lose time in your own life. Yes, your schooling/career takes a back seat for 9 months. Yes, your reputation is ruined. Actions have consequences. Denying another person a life for your bad choice is the ultimate cop-out. Welcome to Real Life. Been here long? I’m Reality, and I’ll be kicking you in the teeth until the day you die.

However,

The choice belongs to the parents – well, lets face it – the mother. My opinion, harsh as it may be, is my own. I don’t presume to tell anyone that they should follow it.  No one, not me, not you, not the government should have the authority to tell the mother what choice to make -- or even when to make it. As the saying goes: Mother Knows Best.

And yet, I have to wonder, where are all the fathers? Where is the guy who was in the broom closet at the Christmas party, or the teenaged jock who just added another notch in his belt? Why are all these girls having to make this choice alone? He helped create the life, it is just as much his issue as it is hers. Oh what’s the matter? Afraid you might miss a few games because you have to take her to la maze class. Tough. If she’s putting her life on hold to give this kid a stab at life, guess what hero, so will you. She wasn’t alone on that bed. And if the choice is made to abort, you should be there holding her hand as the life of your child gets snuffed out. Feel like a big man now?

Looking for an easy way out of this mess? I have an answer for you: don’t have sex until you reach a point in your life where you can handle a child emotionally and finically. Don’t look at me like that. I managed to do it, and I know I’m no picture of self-restraint. Sex with a condom sucks anyway.  I finaly get why most people ‘forget’ to use one.  Imagine eating your favorite meal, only your tongue and the inside of your mouth have been completed coated with cellophane.  Doesn’t sound too yummy does it?

Guys, keep it in you pants. Girls, keep your legs closed, and everybody wins.

So speaks The Great Silvercry.

[Sentenal]

Am I Pro-life? Not at all. Pro-choice al the way. I just have a different decision point than most pro-choice people. I’m against abortion as a form of ‘birth control‘. Rape. Incest. Mother's life. These are the only reasons to have an abortion.

That means your a three exception Pro-Life.

[Silvercry]

Way to miss the point.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Of course, it's also bad pants to bring a child into the world that you are in no way (finacially, emotionally, intellectually, ect...) prepared to care for.

I mean seriously: where do babies come from?  Anybody?  Anybody at all?  Sex.  The sole purpose of sexual intercourse is to conceive children.  Period. End transmission. Everything else, how good it feels, how much fun it is, the foreplay, the kinky outfits you might wear, the way your significant other calls you daddy and pulls your hair when you’re getting it on is all well and good, but THAT’S NOT THE POINT.

On the whole, I think your post is a well written and thought out look at the issue. And if it worked for you, then that's all the better, and I'm quite happy, for you, your wife, and for the child that the two of you will be giving the life she deserves. But I am going to nitpick this one point. In MOST animals, reproduction is the sole point of sex. This is not the case in humans, bonobos, or (I believe) dolphins. With these exceptions, it is a point, certainly the most obvious, but not the only one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

[Silvercry]

Interesting article.  I learned something new today.  

As interesting as it was, it changes nothing.  Just because intercourse is used for something other than reproduction, that doesn’t change its purpose.  Sex can be used as form of payment/currency, a show of power, a source of entertainment, or to quote the article: "as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation".  

But that's not what its there for.  It a bonus, something to enjoy, but not the reason the act (or acts) exist.  It exists in order for a species to reproduce.  Everything else, while noteworthy, valid, and enjoyable, is mere icing on the cake that is life.

[Mystik3eb]

Silvercry, you are absolutely right. Thank you for stating the obvious brilliance that needed to be said. The human race is full of ignoramous. People who can't hold back from doing stupid things just because they wanna do them so bad.

That's why I respect religions or parents who enforce 'morals', not because it's "God's will", but because it's smart. I find myself lucky to not be drawn to alcohol or drugs of any kind. That shit won't make anyone happy in the end. It's so easy to enjoy yourself, or even 'escape reality' without fucking up your mind or body with that garbage, and you can save tons and tons of money.

I'm sick of hearing that some people simply 'can't have fun unless they're drunk.' That's a load of bull. There's something in life everyone can enjoy, they just have to find it. Sure, alcohol or drugs may be the easy way out, but since when was the easy way out the best? It comes with too high a cost, I'm warning you.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Heh. What they never tell you is that sometimes you can't have fun when you are drunk. Except by that time, it's too late to do anything about it. Ooops.

[Lord J Esq]

When will I learn? I should have picked another example. The abortion issue is such a can of worms...

It doesn't need to be. It shouldn't be. Religious entrenchment in our society has made of this controversy so much more than it warrants. If only we could step outside the confines of our biased perspective and see just how small a teapot this truly is! Indeed, the reason abortion is such a nonissue is that it can be answered in terms of siding with or against women's rights, and abortion is to women's rights as a candle is to the sun.

I wish people would be more reasonable, and less stubborn. Abortion is only a controvery because people are stubborn...not because there exists a legitimate gripe between the warring factions. A woman deserves the right to an abortion, on demand, for any reason. It's really that simple. Instead of beating a dead horse, we should be concerning ourselves with truly urgent crises, like energy, environmental sustainability, women's rights, education...the colossal issues of our day. Abortion doesn't deserve the passion we invest in it. If you ask me, abortion is merely the battlefield, not the war. The war itself is between Christianity and all women-debasing religions, and the spectacular evolution of human culture since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution and the Enlightenment that accompanied it. It is, quite literally, the old versus the new...the past versus the future...tradition versus enlightenment.

I am past caring for the courtesy of conflicting opinions. There is no valid dispute here. I've had the abortion debate so many times that I've lost all count. People's minds aren't going to be changed; that is the essence of obstinacy. And here, this thread is proof of that...ever since I mentioned abortion as a tangential example in my reply to the completely different argument that had governed this thread up to that point, the entire discussion has turned upon abortion. How droll! Yet after so many tellings, the joke grows stale.

So...where do we go from here?

I have an idea! Let's argue about abortion some more! In fact, let's just have a whole dedicated thread for everyone to shout themselves hoarse in. Then, in other topics, maybe we can carry on other discussions, that happen to reference abortion, without the conversation being utterly hijacked onto that subject. Yes, that sounds marvelous! I'm going to start an abortion thread right now, a dedicated thread where we can fight Round 38 million of this neverending battle in style, without trampling on the toes of other topics of conversation. Join me there, if you dare! And, if anyone here would rather not take it to that thread, I do not want to see you hijacking other topics with more of this pointless abortion brouhaha!

[Mystik3eb]

I think most everything that's had to be said about abortion has been said. Doesn't seem like a heated topic as other things.

So what about gun-control? I'd think it'd be a good idea for people to have to earn a gun permit, and only be able to keep a gun if it's easily protected from children, but also easily accessable in case of emergency...which is a virtually impossible combination. Then again, I personally hate weapons on a whole, so...eh. I don't really think I have an opinion on this issue.

Really though, you are right. It seems everyone in hear is old and mature enough to apparently have already made up their minds, we've already heard all the arguments and opinions of all sides on all these issues and decided which side to take long ago. So really there is no point in discussing this stuff...

...but maybe we'd like to, because it's like sport. Because we get to throw our take on things out there, we like to say things and pick apart each other's arguments and try to make them look flawed, weak, or hold no bars, and then try to (while being polite) make them look like a fool while throwing our own, obviously correct point of view into the fray, and then our opponent does the same...

I'd say who cares? Let's discuss what we want to discuss just because we can be heard, and who knows? Sometimes we get humbled, sometimes we see that our point was proven correct and we've at least earned that respect. Truly it is like sport, and is fun, dangerous, painful and passionate all at the same time, like a real sport.

Though really it would be nice to discuss the important issues that face each of us. Americans should discuss the pressing problems of America, other countries should do the same for their own countrys problems. Once we're all in good shape on our own, then we should worry about others. Not much point trying to help others if we can't help ourselves, right? I guess it's nice to try, but it seems to me it'd be more important to get the road clear first before trying to drive down it.

...this post became much longer than I originally intended. J's influence. Dammit.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Interesting article.  I learned something new today.  

As interesting as it was, it changes nothing.  Just because intercourse is used for something other than reproduction, that doesn’t change its purpose.  Sex can be used as form of payment/currency, a show of power, a source of entertainment, or to quote the article: "as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation".  

But that's not what its there for.  It a bonus, something to enjoy, but not the reason the act (or acts) exist.  It exists in order for a species to reproduce.  Everything else, while noteworthy, valid, and enjoyable, is mere icing on the cake that is life.

Sorry to bring abortion up again, but I believe that sex is used for pleasure too. Tell me, Silvercry, if this is not too personal, have you had sex once just for the Jessica (yes, i can say Jessica, I did solve the question)?

[Mystik3eb]

Sorry to bring abortion up again, but I believe that sex is used for pleasure too. Tell me, Silvercry, if this is not too personal, have you had sex once just for the Jessica (yes, i can say Jessica, I did solve the question)?

Er...no. That would be the point Silvercry brought up. Sex is for procreation. Our bodies work in a way where it feels good to do so. The pleasure is a result, not a purpose.

...and I wouldn't ask a question like that if I were you...

[knuck]

This topic was ruined. =(

[Hadriel]

Of course, it's also bad pants to bring a child into the world that you are in no way (finacially, emotionally, intellectually, ect...) prepared to care for.

So why not simply not have sex until you reach a point in your life where you can take care of a child?

This I can agree with, up to a point.  I'll elaborate below.

The sole purpose of sexual intercourse is to conceive children.  Period. End transmission. Everything else, how good it feels, how much fun it is, the foreplay, the kinky outfits you might wear, the way your significant other calls you daddy and pulls your hair when you’re getting it on is all well and good, but THAT’S NOT THE POINT.

"The point" of sex is defined by a culture.  It is not merely a way to have babies; the main point of sex at the age most of us hover around is for fun.  You're confusing the end with the means here.  Just because I have a sword doesn't mean that all I use it for is killing people.  I own it, and therefore I define its purpose.  I will certainly use it to defend myself, but how often do I really have to do that?  I haven't had to, so far.  Most of the time, I use it to cut apart incredibly stubborn things, or when I can't find a screwdriver.  Similarly, I am the sole possessor of my sexuality, and thus I define its purpose, which right now is to have fun.  I don't intend to ever have children; they'd have the same kinds of struggles I with my Asperger's syndrome have had in growing up, and to subject another being to that would be one of the most immoral things that I personally am capable of.  But I'm not going to deprive myself of emotional and physical fulfillment for that reason.  That, and a kid would take away from my time to do what I want and to be with my wife.  If that seems selfish, I've done my job.

Guys, keep it in you pants.

No.

Girls, keep your legs closed, and everybody wins.

*searches for response*

No.

And what's this about "just for the Jessica"?  There's an Uncyclopedia entry I could link to about now, and it's frighteningly true in my case, but what the hell is that supposed to mean?