Poll

Abortion?

Yea!
8 (29.6%)
Nay!
8 (29.6%)
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!
11 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Voting closed: November 03, 2005, 12:15:24 am

Author Topic: The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!  (Read 15924 times)

BlueThunder

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2005, 10:47:18 pm »
Quote from: nightmare975
In my eyes, abortion should only be done if the birth can harm or kill the mother and/or child, or if it was rape.



That is how I think about it. Rape is so sad to to our world.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2005, 11:43:01 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Plus, I think that, me talking from a pro abortionist view, that if a woman wants to have an abortion a second time, and both times were just because then that is horrendously wrong.

A woman has the sovereign right to control her own body. This is not a right that can only be used once, like some free pass, and must then be forfeited thereafter. It is a right that continues uninterrupted throughout her life. If that means she has an abortion at some point, fine. Two abortions; fine. Ten thousand abortions; fine. Each abortion is decided on its own merits; there is no cumulative score being kept.

In your world, it may be irresponsible of a woman to be responsible for herself. In the real world, that's absurd.

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
So...The people that say a fetus isnt alive, are also saying a plant...isnt alive?

What the hell are you talking about?

Z, listen up. Rhetorical maneuvers are supposed to be invisible. Yours stands out like the broadside of the Titanic in front of a big fat iceberg, and it's going to meet with about the same level of success. Plants are alive. Fetuses are alive. That isn't the point. It has nothing to do with this discussion. Indeed, if the unborn were not alive at all, this controversy would not even exist. Whatever razzle-dazzle point you were trying to make, you might want to try making it a different way.

OK, first of all, arent we supposed to learn from our mistakes? Then why, oh why, would she go and have sex again, without any contraceptives? That is just stupidity on her part. We as a community arent here to promote ignorance and let it go on rights. Maybe you didnt read me right, I meant that she got pregnant due to stupidity, her just sleeping around. Not rape, not incest, not pain to her/unborn child. I mean, Hey dude, lets go to my place for some hot coffee, kind of stuff. Some dude lost his license in motorcycle, why not give it back? Hey, he has a right of transport, no? Bad analogy, i know.

Second, if you have been reading, instead of glancing over, then you would find out many arguments in the thread, plus *ahem* all over the world is that the unborn fetus is not alive. Well, i am talking to them. Or is that embryo? Damn.

Also, watching through south park episode Cartmans Mum is still a dirty slut, it said something about there being a law against aborting after the second trimester. Is that still applicable now?

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2005, 11:56:46 pm »
Is that what you were getting at with your plant::fetus analogies? That since a plant isn't alive a fetus isn't? If that is the case, you are factually incorrect.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2005, 12:48:43 am »
No...Im saying if a fetus isnt alive then a plant isnt either
EDIT: Well, i guess a plant isnt dependant, but how does that constitiute as LIFE?

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2006, 06:39:04 am »

You called?

Really just posted to bring it back up to speed. It never really...died.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Public opinion

Political sides have largely been divided into absolutes. The abortion debate, as such, tends to center around individuals who hold strong positions. However, public opinion varies from poll to poll, country to country, and region to region:

    * Australia: In a February 2005 AC Nielsen poll, as reported in The Age, 56% thought the current abortion laws, which generally allow abortion for the sake of life or health, were "about right," 16% want changes in law to make abortion "more accessible," and 17% want changes to make it "less accessible." [54] A 1998 poll, conducted by Roy Morgan Research, asked, "Do you approve of the termination of unwanted pregnancies through surgical abortion?" 65% of the Australians polled stated that they approved of surgical abortion and 25% stated that they disapproved of it. [55]

    * Canada: A recent poll of Canadians, conducted in April 2005 by Gallup, found that 52% of those polled want abortion laws to "remain the same," 20% want the laws to be "less strict," and 24% would prefer that the laws become "more strict." An earlier Gallup poll, from December 2001, asked, "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances and in what circumstances?" 32% of Canadians responded that they believe abortion should be legal in all circumstance, 52% that it should be legal in certain circumstances, and 14% that it should be legal in no circumstances. Canada currently has no laws restricting abortion. See Abortion in Canada.

    * Ireland: A 1997 Irish Times/MRBI poll of the Republic of Ireland's electorate found that 18% believe that abortion should never be permitted, 35% that one should be allowed in the event that the woman's life is threatened, 18% if her health is at risk, 28% that "an abortion should be provided to those who need it," and 5% were undecided. [56]

    * United Kingdom: An online YouGov/Daily Telegraph poll in August 2005 found that 30% of Britons would back a measure to reduce the legal limit for abortion to 20 weeks, 19% support a limit of 12 weeks, 9% support a limit of less than 12 weeks, and 25% support maintaining the current limit of 24 weeks. 6% responded that abortion should never be allowed while 2% said it should be permitted throughout the entirety of pregnancy. [57]

    * United States: In a January 2006 CBS News poll, which asked, "What is your personal feeling about abortion?", 27% said that abortion should be "permitted in all cases," 15% that it should be "permitted, but subject to greater restrictions than it is now," 33% said that it should be "permitted only in cases such as rape, incest or to save the woman's life," 17% said that it should "only be permitted to save the woman's life," and 5% said that it should "never" be permitted. [58] A November 2005 Pew Research Center poll asked "In 1973 the Roe versus Wade decision established a woman's constitutional right to an abortion, at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?", with 29% indicating they want it overturned, and 65% that they do not. [59]

Theicedragon

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2006, 02:58:01 pm »
Quote from: Mystik3eb


Try this perspective on for size: what if the father wanted the baby to be born? What if he wanted to take care of it and raise it and love it, even if it was on his own? Or even if he didn't want to raise it on his own, but give it to some loving couple who are dying to have a baby? It's biologically as much his child as hers. But noooo, it's her rights, and it's her[/b] final word. Think that's fair? What do you do in those situations? Say "Sorry buddy, but it's her call. She's the one with the baby, not you." And think of this: what if she was the one who coaxed him into sex? I don't think it's hard to seperate legal bullshit from fairness and some basic understandings of what's "right." We all seem to forget that the reasons behind people having sex is not always "because they really wanted to, hoping to avoid the consequences."

But then again, legalities would state that it's literally a part of her, and basically would call it her legal property, making it hers to do what she wants with it. This would say that indeed, all ideas of child-bearing and child-birth attachments go straight to the women. The rights, along with the responsibilities, go straight to her, regardless of how she got the way she did. Will we rule out the men simply because they aren't carrying the baby, or will we only consider them part of it when throwing blame around for giving this conceived fetus the chance for life and growth?

quote]


After reading all of the post, this one stuck out the most because i was just about to type it.  I think the problem is that people think about the rights of the women too much in this regard.  When it comes to children, women have all of the rights.  If the woman wants an abotion, the man has no say so by law, If the man wants the woman to get an abortion, once again the man has no say so.  So this is the problem.  If the man doesn't want the kid but the woman wants it, the woman will have the kid without the fathers consent.  Then to make matters worse, the father has to pay child support to support a kid he doens't want because of the law.  So what im saying is if that is allowed to happen, who has more rights, the father or the mother?  If you look at it that way, then abortion can be based on the woman having more rights than the baby because she already has more rights than the father when it comes to children.(this comment is to gray about the baby and women having equal rights)

[/quote]

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2006, 05:09:32 pm »
Quote from: Theicedragon
So what im saying is if that is allowed to happen, who has more rights, the father or the mother?

The woman is the one who undergoes the pregnancy. The right to terminate or carry to term is exclusively hers. She is welcome to invite friends, family, or other counsel to help her make her decision, but in the end a woman is going to have to be legally free to control her own body, or she effectively becomes the property of the state, and her life is subordinated to that of an unthinking, invisibly small clump of fertilized cells.

No runaround.  No nitpicking. No semantics. Pregnancy is a woman's onus, and abortion on demand is her exclusive right.

As for the question of involuntary fathers who would have preferred the woman abort but were overruled, and are then made to pay child support, I can see only two resolutions. The first is the religious solution that fundamentalists always spew to women: If you didn't want the baby, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Pay up.

The more reasonable solution is to impose a new tax (or divert existing tax money) to ease the burden of unwanted children for both women and men, and reduce child support obligations.

It would also help for unwilling soon-to-be fathers to confer with legal counsel while a pregnancy is still in progress and formalize their desire not to have the child. These documents could then be called upon in the future to perhaps ease their child support obligations. But I leave that possibility to better legal minds than mine.

Silvercry

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« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2006, 08:29:32 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
The first is the religious solution that fundamentalists always spew to women: If you didn't want the baby, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Pay up.


Take this single sentence, apply it both men women, then live it, and the problem takes care of itself.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2006, 08:38:10 pm »
Quote from: Silvercry
Quote from: Lord J esq
The first is the religious solution that fundamentalists always spew to women: If you didn't want the baby, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Pay up.


Take this single sentence, apply it both men women, then live it, and the problem takes care of itself.

The problem with that doctrine is that it is unreasonable. It is as unreasonable when applied to men as it is to women. Human adults are inherently sexual creatures, and despite the ravings of <insert monotheistic religion of your choice here>, people will continue to have sex without regards to thoughts of childrearing. It is a pleasurable, natural thing. Christianity has always been at the height of neurotic folly to repress it and make us feel guilty for being what we are.

Silvercry

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« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2006, 08:58:30 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Silvercry
Quote from: Lord J esq
The first is the religious solution that fundamentalists always spew to women: If you didn't want the baby, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Pay up.


Take this single sentence, apply it both men women, then live it, and the problem takes care of itself.

The problem with that doctrine is that it is unreasonable. It is as unreasonable when applied to men as it is to women. Human adults are inherently sexual creatures, and despite the ravings of <insert monotheistic religion of your choice here>, people will continue to have sex without regards to thoughts of childrearing. It is a pleasurable, natural thing. Christianity has always been at the height of neurotic folly to repress it and make us feel guilty for being what we are.


And therein lies the problem.  Until people accept the fact that the sole biological reason we even have the ability to have sex is produce offspring, they will continue to father/drop kids and then act like abortion is the only solution.    

How ever I might fell about abortion (and I do think its wrong.  Bite me) I understand that the choice is not up to me,and likewise, not up to the government.  Of course it is the woman's right to decide to carry any pregnancy to term or not.  The first step on that decision making process, however, ought to occur before she has sex.  Why everyone choses to ignore this option out of hand boggles my mind.  We (humanity) are supposed to masters of our own fate, capable of conscious thought and not mere slaves to our biological desires.  Why not apply this will to the most important thing we do, ie bringing children into the world?

Unreasonable?  Bah.  Difficult?  Hell, yes.  Possible?  Of course.  If a young and otherwise immature teenaged Silvercry could look around and seem all his high school buddies getting knocked up and ruining their lives and make a decision not to put himself in such a position until such time as he could take care of a child, any idiot can.  It can be done, and it wont screw you up for life to not have sex until such a point.  You'll live.  You might make the producers of KY a small fortune in the meantime, but you'll live.

Hadriel

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« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2006, 10:16:18 pm »
I'm actually not sure about the advent of sex from an evolutionary standpoint.  It could simply be that the ability to derive pleasure from sex came about by chance and became an extra incentive to reproduce, and the numbers of little slimy proto-people with the "I get pleasure from sex" gene quickly swelled to massive proportions.

Largely, I believe that it's a woman's right to do what she wants with her body.  However, I also believe that people should take some fucking responsibility for their actions if bad shit happens.

The fact that humans are sexual beings is why I support pulling all our troops out of Iraq.  This may not make sense right now, but hang on.  I support reallocating every last cent of money from our war budget to develop anatomically faithful sex robots in the image of both genders and all races present on this planet, plus Twi'leks and catgirls for those of us who, like me, are freaks and therefore are into that kind of thing.  These sex robots should then be sold without restriction to anyone who wants one, regardless of age, sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, country of origin, or the opinion of their goddamn retarded fundamentalist parents.  A top-flight technical support staff comprised of both computer specialists and board-certified medical doctors should be present at all times to deal with any problems, and with all the money these things would make, you'd have no trouble paying them.

Not a very realistic solution, is it?  To me, the very fact that it isn't realistic is indicative of a cultural problem (I'm not taking the actual technology into account right now).  However, it's no less effective than the abstinence-only doctrine promoted by the Bush administration, and it'd be a better use of our money, to boot, since there's a chance it might actually get results; Japan has made remarkable advances in android tech lately, no doubt because they think like I'm thinking right now.

The adoption system is one solution that actually does have a fairly good track record.  Abortion is looked upon by some as a way to escape from responsibility, but quite frankly, if certain responsibilities can be mitigated by technological advance, then I'm all for it; it makes less hardship for society as a whole.  The logic that it's bad because it infringes on personal responsibility doesn't hold up; by that logic, they shouldn't use computers, or any technology at all, because it exists solely to make our lives more convenient.  Abortion is something of a convenience; it frees those women who don't want the responsibility of a child from having to deal with it.

The separation of church and state should be respected.  You're free to believe whatever you want in private, but when you try to legislate based around your own personal beliefs that other people may or may not agree with, you're being immoral by demonstrating that you believe neither in individual choice nor personal responsibility for those hardships that technology can't erase or hasn't figured out how to erase yet.

Abstinence is also a personal choice.  If you want to go that route, that's fine.  I personally think it's stupid to deprive yourself of the best thing that ever happened to anyone, but if you feel as if you can gain from doing so, that's your choice.  However, for people who do not believe that any benefit can be derived from abstinence, it's stupid to try to tell them not to have sex when methods are easily available to resolve any mistakes that may have been made because some douche forgot to put on a rubber.

The only thing I have to say about religion in this instance is the name of a book of the Bible.  Yay for the Song of Solomon.  That guy knew how to fucking party.  Actually, in the original Hebrew, there's no biblical prohibition on sex outside of marriage.  Adultery is not, contrary to the insistence of my idiot mother, defined as having sex with someone you aren't married to.  It is defined as being in a relationship, and then engaging in the act of sex with someone other than the person/s you're with.  If one is not in a relationship, one is incapable of cheating.  But regardless of what you feel about whether religion is just a bad thing, period, or has been corrupted by man over the years, it's an undeniable fact that the religious right has repeatedly stood in the way of almost all forms of social progress, and is primarily responsible for the cultural reasons why I can't have sex with a perfect robot facsimile of Natalie Portman, though I can't even imagine all the legal issues that would result from this; you could conceivably bootleg someone's body, having sex with a clone of them without their approval, and I don't think that'd go over too well.

Maelstrom

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« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2006, 10:22:11 pm »
I don't like the idea of abortion, but there's two angles where it undeniably gets hairy.  My first case...

Woman's risk: There's often the situation where there's a strong/certain chance the mother will die if she tries to continue her pregnancy to term, combined with a negligible, strong, or certain chance the unborn would die as well.  There obviously has to has to be some instances where abortion would need to be legal (where both risks of death are certain or nearly certain), but if you still want abortion illegal in general, then you are going to have to come up with some risk threshold/cutoff.  It's going to be hard to come up with a fair criteria that doesn't give doctors considerable leeway.

Of course, that may not be enough to make you give up, so let's consider my other angle.  The following quote was thrown around: "If you didn't want the baby, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place."  This retort neglects one serious case...

Rape: It's the scenario where the "choice" of whether to have sex is taken away, and often violently.  It's problematic because...

1) Rape is common.  You can't just say we will handle it on a case-by-case basis.

2) There would need to be, at a minimum, a rape exception.  Without it, all women face the fear of having their career/economic status damned at any moment.  Furthermore, rapists would be even more encouraged to continue their practice: their desire of rape isn't to have sex, but to excercise power over someone else, and the lack of a rape exception would give them more room to do damage.

3) You actually have to enforce that rape exception somehow.  In particular, you have to decide what strength of evidence there needs to be.  I'll open a couple subsections for this:

A) The strongest policy would be to require a rape convinction.  Unfortunately, this is impractical for several reasons: One, rape is *hard* to prove in court, and many legit cases will not result in convinction (since you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and the evidence simply may not be there; not only do you need physical evidence, but you need to prove that the sex wasn't consensual).  Even more, because you do have a rape exception, then the man can use the argument of "It was consensual; she's just accusing me because she wants an abortion," and it'll be hard to disprove it.  Rape will become *nearly impossible* to prove, so nearly none of these raped woman will get their abortion.

Also, many criminal cases take a lot time to put together.  The baby may already be well-developed or even delivered before the case concludes, and many will argue that you are committing a worse crime by aborting a five month fetus compared to a five day fetus.

B) A weaker threshold would not require the woman to acquire a convinction.  Unfortunately, if she doesn't need a convinction, then there's inevitably going to be scenarios where a woman (possibly with accomplices with testimony) that wasn't raped could put together enough evidence to get the abortion but of course would not necessarily need to get anyone convincted in the process.  In other words, it's just a matter of putting together a decent rape story/conspiracy to get the abortion without losing any friends.

Point is, any rape exception you may make is going to either be inadequate (A) or loophole-ridden (B).

.
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Seeing as a rape exception (and medical exception) can't be both sufficient and not manipulable, and that not allowing abortions in those cases leads to a terrifying culture for women, we have no choice but to settle for a more relaxed abortion policy.  This means uninhibited access to abortion (at least early-term).  A moderate ruling based on this idea is Roe v/ Wade: Access is easy early on, but states have the right to make abortion harder late in the pregnancy (if it's in the last trimester, you can just induce an early delivery if you really need to).

Now, some may argue that we should make late-term abortions harder.  However, it's worth pointing out they are pretty rare already:

Time in gestation of (legal) abortion:
0-8 weeks: 58% (avg of 7.25% per week)
8-12 weeks: 30% (avg of 7.50% per week)
12-20 weeks: 10.5% (avg of 1.31% per week)
20 weeks - birth (typically ~39 weeks): 1.5% (average of 0.08% per week)

Source, but this data is presented in sentences.

As such, people in practice generally do not take late-term abortion lightly, and legislating a time threshold won't have a major impact; in fact, it may just lead to those people getting their abortions earlier, and you may very well see an *increase* in abortions.  Some women that otherwise may go on to deliver may panic and abort out of fear, afraid that something may go wrong during the remainder of the pregnancy and  that they won't have that abortion lifeline to save them.

As such, I think our current setup is fine.  It's not going to be satisfying, but making it any more restrictive is just going to make things suck.

"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

It's perfect if you think about it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, there is still a way to reduce abortions without making them illegal: educate teenagers about birth control, and get them access to contraceptives.  Studies generally support that this helps.  Teaching good communication / relationship skills and otherwise empowering teenagers to take control and responsibility in their lives can't hurt either (if you don't address their problems, you allow them to become depressed and more vulnerable to unhealthy/unsafe relationships, which often involve *unprotected* sex).

The fact *many* (albeit far from all) conservatives fight comprehensive sex education shows you that they aren't interested in reducing the number of abortions, but that they absolutely must have their religious dogma enforced by the government.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in response to Hadriel, that's hilarious.  As for the legal rammifications of sex'ing a robot, I think you may be in the clear as long as the robot remains strictly a program that hasn't crossed the "uncanny valley" that gives the robot the ability to really "think" for itself.  After that, it gets hard, because you get into all kinds of sticky "consent" issues.

*grumble*

Silvercry

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2006, 10:52:17 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
The fact that humans are sexual beings is why I support pulling all our troops out of Iraq.  This may not make sense right now, but hang on.  I support reallocating every last cent of money from our war budget to develop anatomically faithful sex robots in the image of both genders and all races present on this planet, plus Twi'leks and catgirls for those of us who, like me, are freaks and therefore are into that kind of thing.  These sex robots should then be sold without restriction to anyone who wants one, regardless of age, sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, country of origin, or the opinion of their goddamn retarded fundamentalist parents.  A top-flight technical support staff comprised of both computer specialists and board-certified medical doctors should be present at all times to deal with any problems, and with all the money these things would make, you'd have no trouble paying them.


Greatest Idea in History, bar none.

Quote from: Hadriel
Abstinence is also a personal choice.  If you want to go that route, that's fine.  I personally think it's stupid to deprive yourself of the best thing that ever happened to anyone, but if you feel as if you can gain from doing so, that's your choice.  However, for people who do not believe that any benefit can be derived from abstinence, it's stupid to try to tell them not to have sex when methods are easily available to resolve any mistakes that may have been made because some douche forgot to put on a rubber.


Please.  The only thing abstinence denies you is some instant gratification for the sake of potentially much more rewarding gratification later on.  Cry me a river.

Though I suppose you're right about it being a personal choice.

Sex is the best thing to happened to anyone?  Man, I'd hate it if that were true.  Sure its in the top 15, but the best?  Not by a long shot.

Hadriel

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« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2006, 11:55:31 pm »
Then name me something better than sex.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #119 on: March 28, 2006, 12:50:13 am »
I'm going to have to call bullshit on the notion that the only biological reason for sex is procreation. This may be true in all but three species, but gues what? We're one of the lucky three. The health benefits of sex are numerous, and apply both to body and mind. Sure, there is the risk of STDs, particularly if you are foolish in your sexual endeavors, but everything you do carries risk. I go out and walk about four miles a day. I cross a lot of streets, often at night. My odds of getting hit by a car go up drastically next to if I had sat at home guzzling soda and chips. Hell, it gets cold up here, and rains a lot. I could catch a cold, or slip and take a fall. Concrete and gravity will beat me, every time. Also, although crime is very low where I live, there is always the chance of being acosted by a violent and dangerous criminal. That's no good at all. That said, which is the healthier choice?