Poll

Abortion?

Yea!
8 (29.6%)
Nay!
8 (29.6%)
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!
11 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Voting closed: November 03, 2005, 12:15:24 am

Author Topic: The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!  (Read 15904 times)

Silvercry

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2005, 02:14:45 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
(Note to Compendium readers: My original post in this GameFAQs thread referenced a link, now lost, to a news story about a teenage woman in Texas who got pregnant. She got scared, and since Texas law makes it very hard for someone like her to get an anonymous abortion, she panicked and asked her boyfriend to kick her in the stomach so that she would miscarry. He did, the baby died, and based on Texas anti-abortion laws the guy was sentenced to 40 years in prison.


WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST WILL MAKE ME SOUND LIKE A HEARTLESS BASTARD.  IF YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH THAT, SKIP THIS POST


Soooo we have pair of people so immature and unable to cope with consequences of their actions that kicking a pregant woman in the stomach is the best solution they could possibly come up with? Because 'she got scared'? And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?   Where was this fear when before the act of sex?   Did the possibility of pregnancy occur to them before they had sex?  We're they ignorant to the risk?  Sounds to me like they just didn’t want to own up to their actions.  Actions have consequences.  If he didn’t want to be in jail for 40 years, ‘fessing up to what was done and getting her a legal abortion was an option.  Or helping her carry to term and then give the baby up was also a choice.  They chose the ‘easy’ way out.  Now he has to pay for it.

Got what they deserved.

SilentMartyr

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2005, 03:43:16 pm »
Silvercry you heartless bastard!  :wink:

Excellent third choice Josh. Any Simpsons quote is alright by me.

I say abortion whenever you want. I don't see the purpose of saying oh it's okay then but not there. It is denial of life regardless of time.

GrayLensman

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2005, 05:36:30 pm »
Abortion introduces a conflict between the rights of the mother and the rights of the developing fetus.

Humans beings have rights in our society because we are capable of reason or cognition, as Josh puts it.  We extend these rights to all humans, even those with severe mental disability.  At some scientifically definable point in human gestation, the fetus will develop higher mental functions, such that it ought to have rights.  

A one day old human embryo may be alive; but, like a brain-dead adult, it is not a person.  Cutting off life-support for such an individual does not bring up any moral quandaries, as far as I'm concerned.  I do not think the idea of potential human life is relevant.  Any unfertilized human ovum or sperm has the potential to become a person.

However, after the onset of cognition, the fetus becomes a person with equal rights with the mother.  The rights of an individual only extend so far as they do not infringe on the rights of another.  For example, if a person had a conjoined twin who could not survive separately, he should not be allowed to have his twin surgically removed out of convenience.  This puts an unfortunate limitation on the freedom of the mother, but I see that as an unavoidable consequence of reality.  At this point, abortion should only be allowed if it is a medically necessity.  

Josh's argument that the mother is more worthy than the fetus doesn't hold water, in my oppinion.  Humans have equal rights.  The most severely mentally impaired person has the same rights as anyone else.  During medical treatment, one tries to save the patient with the greatest chance of survival, not the one who has experienced more or deserves to live more.

I think abortion will continue to be a contentious issue in our society until a technological solution is reached, such as effortless, 100% effective contraception and the ability to safely extract and sustain a human embryo outside the womb at any stage of pregnancy.

Burning Zeppelin

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2005, 07:13:25 pm »
Exactly. A one week old baby is as "brain dead" as a fetus. Now, if you had children, then you figured out that your "boyfriend" just ran away, according to abortion logic, you could leave it to die. In theory. Of course, then the baby would be out of the womb. And therefore, practically, would be alive. See how I contradict myseld, while making a valid point?
Plus, is it then right to pull the plug on a "vegetable" who is eating up your money? In abortionist theory, yes, it is. In reality, it's not.
You realize that all this is going to become is a "what is life" thread

Eriol

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2005, 07:43:00 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
You realize that all this is going to become is a "what is life" thread

Hence why I already went there at the end of the previous page.  It almost always comes down to that.  Either that, or quality of life.

Exodus

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2005, 10:09:37 pm »
This is, more than likely, one of the few topics of debate that you'll find me in agreeance with your statements, Josh.

Radical_Dreamer

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2005, 03:32:33 am »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Exactly. A one week old baby is as "brain dead" as a fetus. Now, if you had children, then you figured out that your "boyfriend" just ran away, according to abortion logic, you could leave it to die. In theory. Of course, then the baby would be out of the womb. And therefore, practically, would be alive. See how I contradict myseld, while making a valid point?
Plus, is it then right to pull the plug on a "vegetable" who is eating up your money? In abortionist theory, yes, it is. In reality, it's not.
You realize that all this is going to become is a "what is life" thread


Bullshit. A one week old baby can recognize it's mother's face. A fetus can't recognize anything.

Lord J Esq

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2005, 04:51:51 am »
Quote from: Silvercry
Because 'she got scared'? And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

It's up to you to feel sorry for them or not. By laughing off the 40-year prison sentence as just deserts for some stupid kid who was trying to help fix a problem he had a hand in causing, you're certainly in line with the thinking of many Texans, as well as the Texas legislature, and the judge who heard the case. "Heartless bastard" is right, but your unapologetic refusal to sympathize isn't the issue. Justice isn't the function of a public opinion poll, fortunately. No, at issue is this:

A more equitable society would help people from making bad decisions in the first place. This tragedy could have been prevented.

If Texan culture wasn't so vehemently hateful of everything encompassed in the female gender, and therefore wasn't so aghast at premarital sex and pregnancy out of wedlock, this young woman would never have freaked out, and perhaps could have accepted her pregnancy in peace. But instead she got scared and wanted an abortion. Even then, the situation could have been salvaged if only she had had easy access to abortion services. It would have made all the difference. But she did not have even that last recourse. Instead, when society had failed her twice, she took matters into her own hands, and, with the ignorance of age and the rashness of fear, asked her boyfriend to assault her in hopes that the baby would miscarry. He dutifully obliged--just as ignorant as she, but well-meaning--for there was no social mechanism and no safety valve, no authority of any kind to give him the most important advice of his life. No, in Texas the only thing the authorities are good for is prosecuting children and locking them up for 40 years because their own culture is too damned inept to raise children responsibly. God bless America, eh?

This young man ruined his life--trying to do good. It is never an occasion to gloat when somebody meets a fate like that. Do you understand what I mean?

But what makes this all so much worse, so much more than a freak tragedy, is that this was no accident at all. It was the product of a sick culture. It could have been prevented. By forcing two young and sexually curious teenagers not to have sex? No. By helping them understand their sexuality, and offering them good counsel. We all have a long way to go in reaching that better tomorrow, but Texas has a particularly tough road ahead. Bloody disgrace of a state, if you ask me.

Zaperking

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2005, 07:30:39 am »
Well, with the fetus come other things. Like the soul. If you're Christian, who knows when you gain a soul. I'd say that the moment that the two things fuse, that’s when it's created. But there are other religions that say that you only gain a soul by suffering in life Oo

You're just sleeping as a fetus. The only reason why you would say a Fetus is brain-dead is because it's irresponsive. Well, who would be? It's not conscious. MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN BECOME CONCIOUS TILL THEY'RE 5. I was blessed with being conscious of everything since I was 1 year and 9 months old. Would a fetus that is maybe 4 months old have the same equal rights as a one-day-old baby, even though the 6 months old fetus might not be conscious yet because the chemicals in the brain haven't kicked in?

Abortion should not be allowed. Even if the mother is having complications and could die giving the baby... I know I may sound heartless, but that's how it worked back before we had medicines.
Plus, why are those science jerks being such dick heads and rejecting stem cell research because it involves breaking apart a fetus if they support abortions?

And as for Sexual Education. I find that whole thing about "Teens who have sex and get pregnant not knowing the consequences" to be like an urban myth. It's bullshit. Of course you know you'll have a baby. Maybe if a 5-year-old girl and a 12-year-old girl did it, that'd be a different story. But when you're 13/14, you should already know how a baby is formed. If not, you should be castrated like V_T said :P

As Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" said, Every Spem is Sacred.

V_Translanka

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2005, 09:47:30 am »
I'm all for post-birth abortions...And no "abortions of wit" jokes!

Birth Licence people! It makes TOO much sense!

Silvercry

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2005, 12:10:14 pm »
Preventable tragedy?  Oh, absolutely.  At several key points:

POINT ONE:  SOCIETY

I'll be the first to admit that Texas it perhaps the most backwards state in the union, a fact I learned well growing up as one of very few blacks in a town of around 10,000 people whose largest building was a Baptist church.  Society did fail them long before they were even born.  So now its up to --

POINT TWO: PARENTS

It is not up to society to raise my daughter: that’s my job.  And likewise with the parents of these two teens.  One has to wonder what kind of relationship they had with their parents if they were too scared to come to them for help.  Typically, however, the fear is often worse than the reality.  When the time comes, I know that I will sit down with my child, and have a honest, frank discussion about the facts of life.  Though I imagine she'd rather talk about some things with her mother, the end result would be the same: She will be armed with the knowledge to make an informed choice when -- not if -- the opportunity to have sex arises.  To include the consequences of doing it or not.  Personally I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she'll wind up being gay.  Sure would make my life easier.  And yes, that was a joke.

POINT THREE: THE ACT OF HAVING SEX

I cannot be the only person on this forum who realizes the only reason we even have the ability to have sex is to produce offspring.  Yeah, it feels damn good, and yeah it used for all sorts of viable reasons, but the only reason its there is to continue the species.  Did these kids know this going in?  Did they take adequate measures  to protect themselves?  Did they wonder: what will I/she/we do if  I/she/we gets knocked up?  If you are not mature enough to ask yourself this question -- even if your answer is abortion -- then you are not mature enough to be having sex, whatever your body is telling you.

POINT FOUR:  ACCEPTING THE CONSEQUNCES

As I see it. there are 3 things a woman can due with an unwanted pregnancy:  abort, carry to term and raise (with the aid of the father), or carry to term and give up for an adoption.  What these three things have in common is in each, the mother has accepted the consequences of her actions.  Though I may consider an abortion as the single greatest cop-out a human being can commit, that is just my opinion of this viable option.  It still an option, and should remain such, right-wing nut jobs be damned.

All three of these options were available to this couple.  The fact that she could not abort anonymously is irrelevant.  That's just a way to skirt responsibility.  In her eyes, she messed up.  Well then, fess up.  If you're woman enough to have sex, you should be woman enough to own up to your actions.  The law may be unfair, but until it is changed, it is the law.  If abortion is your choice, then find out what needs to be done to have a medically safe one and then do it.  If you don’t want to go though that, refer to point three.  That was the time to make that choice.

Yes this was preventable.  At no fewer than 4 key points.  Texas must take the hit for the first one, but the remaining three are all up to the people in question.  When people make bad choices, and then suffer the consequences, I feel no sympathy for them.  I've made plenty of mistakes as a teen, some of them follow me to this day.  I expect no sympathy.  My choice, my consequence, my problem.  And that is as it should be.

SilentMartyr

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2005, 03:46:42 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Well, with the fetus come other things. Like the soul. If you're Christian, who knows when you gain a soul. I'd say that the moment that the two things fuse, that’s when it's created. But there are other religions that say that you only gain a soul by suffering in life Oo

You're just sleeping as a fetus. The only reason why you would say a Fetus is brain-dead is because it's irresponsive. Well, who would be? It's not conscious. MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN BECOME CONCIOUS TILL THEY'RE 5. I was blessed with being conscious of everything since I was 1 year and 9 months old. Would a fetus that is maybe 4 months old have the same equal rights as a one-day-old baby, even though the 6 months old fetus might not be conscious yet because the chemicals in the brain haven't kicked in?

Abortion should not be allowed. Even if the mother is having complications and could die giving the baby... I know I may sound heartless, but that's how it worked back before we had medicines.Plus, why are those science jerks being such dick heads and rejecting stem cell research because it involves breaking apart a fetus if they support abortions?

And as for Sexual Education. I find that whole thing about "Teens who have sex and get pregnant not knowing the consequences" to be like an urban myth. It's bullshit. Of course you know you'll have a baby. Maybe if a 5-year-old girl and a 12-year-old girl did it, that'd be a different story. But when you're 13/14, you should already know how a baby is formed. If not, you should be castrated like V_T said :P

As Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" said, Every Spem is Sacred.


Hubba whubba? So laws shouldn't change with improving medicinal technology? That makes absolutely no sense at all...ever. That would be like keeping hanging a viable death penalty when there are much more sucessful and painless ways to do it.

Eriol

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2005, 04:45:55 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
That would be like keeping hanging a viable death penalty when there are much more sucessful and painless ways to do it.

Just to add another level of de-rail, why is a painless death penalty important?  Why NOT have it painful?


(P.S. I'm actually against the death penalty, but it's still a fair question)

Radical_Dreamer

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2005, 05:01:49 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Well, with the fetus come other things. Like the soul. If you're Christian, who knows when you gain a soul. I'd say that the moment that the two things fuse, that’s when it's created. But there are other religions that say that you only gain a soul by suffering in life Oo


Irrelevant.

Quote from: Zaperking
You're just sleeping as a fetus. The only reason why you would say a Fetus is brain-dead is because it's irresponsive. Well, who would be? It's not conscious. MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN BECOME CONCIOUS TILL THEY'RE 5. I was blessed with being conscious of everything since I was 1 year and 9 months old. Would a fetus that is maybe 4 months old have the same equal rights as a one-day-old baby, even though the 6 months old fetus might not be conscious yet because the chemicals in the brain haven't kicked in?


Before the brain is developed (or even present) you aren't sleeping. You have no possibility of any sort of concious or unconcious experience. If a fetus is aborted, it feels no pain, no sense of loss, no warmth, no cold, nothing. No conciousness to change.

Quote from: Zaperking
Abortion should not be allowed. Even if the mother is having complications and could die giving the baby... I know I may sound heartless, but that's how it worked back before we had medicines.
Plus, why are those science jerks being such dick heads and rejecting stem cell research because it involves breaking apart a fetus if they support abortions?


Scientists are the ones who are for stem cell research! Did you pay attention (assuming you live in the U.S.) to that whole debacle? It was President Bush, who hates science. Scientists are chomping at the bit for funding, because stem cell reasearch has so much potential to do good in this world. That's why it's so disgusting that polititans are getting involved. Of course, they shouldn't be involved in science anyway, but that's a seperate discussion.

Quote from: Zaperking
And as for Sexual Education. I find that whole thing about "Teens who have sex and get pregnant not knowing the consequences" to be like an urban myth. It's bullshit. Of course you know you'll have a baby. Maybe if a 5-year-old girl and a 12-year-old girl did it, that'd be a different story. But when you're 13/14, you should already know how a baby is formed. If not, you should be castrated like V_T said :P


Can't really argue that. I can't imagine that anyone can make it to puberty without learning that babies come from sex, and more specifically, the sperm fusing with the egg. Condoms aren't hard to find people.

Zaperking

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The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2005, 07:37:38 pm »
Hmm, There were actually politicians here and some scientists (Australia) who liked the idea of abortions, yet were against the research of stem cells. That's why in December, there will be another meeting to try and unban the research.