The Abortion Thread Ex Ultra!

[Radical_Dreamer]

Hmm, There were actually politicians here and some scientists (Australia) who liked the idea of abortions, yet were against the research of stem cells. That's why in December, there will be another meeting to try and unban the research.

Scientists? Really? They should be ashamed of themselves. I grant that stem cells may not be able to live up to all the hype, at least not for many years to come, but that's not a reason to abandon a life saving line of research.

[Silvercry]

Ah, yes, stem-cell research.  Thousands of frozen embryos just sitting there in countless fertility clinics all across the country, all of them earmarked for destruction.  Their parents already have the child/children they wanted, thanks to in-vitro fertilization.  They have signed off their claims to the extra embryos.  

And we can’t use them for stem-cell research because why exactly?

It’s a no brainer as far as I can see.  We can destroy these embryos in a lab, perhaps leading to a discovery that leads to a discovery that leads to a discovery, etc, etc, and in 100 years, people will be talking about diabetes in the past tense, like we do with polio today.

Or, we can destroy them in an incinerator – and get nothing out of it whatsoever.

Seems simple, huh?

[Radical_Dreamer]

Nearest I can tell, to be against using that, one has to actively be against humanity, and pro unneccisary human suffering. Or such a fanatical luddite, that the thought of any use of science whatsoever is more offensive than the thought of countless people suffering for no reason. Either way, I didn't vote for him.

[Exodus]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not brandishing a label on the whole group-- I've met quite a few clear thinking religious people.

With that in mind, the majority of religious groups piss me off with the sheer arrogance and ignorance that these groups use to represent themselves.

I ask a question; I do not want a nine paragraph essay on the subject. Keep it simple. The question I ask is this: what right do you have to make decisions for other people? Who are you to judge your own God's will? Does he come down and talk to you? Are you a connoisseur of all things unsavory? A judge on humanity?

The whole "we know exactly what God wants" thing is what turned me off of religion in the first place. It's just hellfire, damnation, scorn. Never any help for people like these two teens, and I'm getting tired of it.

Bah, there I went. Time for some Ragnarok. I'm not really into this philosophical debate as to why it's okay to essentially damn this girl's life to nothingness to have a child she will grow to despise for ruining her life. Sure, she has nobody to blame but herself. Or does she? Do we know if this girl had any help? Any counseling on safer sex? I can't recall who it was that said it, but it was a powerful parallel, none-the-less:

You don't teach your kid to drive a car by sending him to his room.

[Silvercry]

Bah, there I went. Time for some Ragnarok. I'm not really into this philosophical debate as to why it's okay to essentially damn this girl's life to nothingness to have a child she will grow to despise for ruining her life.

Damn, you’re right.  If only there was some kind of system in place where someone could – I dunno – give an unwanted child over to someone who wanted one.  Perhaps someone or a couple who couldn’t have kids of their own.  Yeah, that would be sweet.  Mom would be out of things for 9mths and deal with some pain, and then free to live her own life, perhaps a bit wiser for the journey.  The people who take the child off her hands would be ecstatic to finally have a child to love.  The child itself would live.  

Too bad nothing like that exits though.  Oh well.  Next abortion, please.

[Zaperking]

One day, they will invent virtual sex That way no more horny teens have to do it for real and suffer the consiquences

[Exodus]

Bah, there I went. Time for some Ragnarok. I'm not really into this philosophical debate as to why it's okay to essentially damn this girl's life to nothingness to have a child she will grow to despise for ruining her life.

Damn, you’re right.  If only there was some kind of system in place where someone could – I dunno – give an unwanted child over to someone who wanted one.  Perhaps someone or a couple who couldn’t have kids of their own.  Yeah, that would be sweet.  Mom would be out of things for 9mths and deal with some pain, and then free to live her own life, perhaps a bit wiser for the journey.  The people who take the child off her hands would be ecstatic to finally have a child to love.  The child itself would live.  

Too bad nothing like that exits though.  Oh well.  Next abortion, please.

Yeah, you should probably read statistics about adoption before popping shit off. Thanks.

 Like, you know, how there are already children waiting in line to be adopted by a loving family. Let's not forget that humanity is already stretching its natural tolerance. Our planet can hardly support the 6 billion we already have.

Where the fuck is your God now?

[Silvercry]

I never claimed that ‘God’ or any religious teaching was the reason behind my opinion of abortion.  Never.  Not once.

Short of limiting the of children a family can have (a’la Enders Game) or systematically killing off people to keep the population down (a’la – um – that episode of Sliders I saw once) there is no way to keep the effectively control the population, outside of conspiracy theories which don’t work.  I can only assume that you must be against stem-cell research then, since it has the potential to eliminate so many things that kill us, which keeps the population down.

And just because adoption is harder, takes longer, and is more work, does not eliminate it  a viable option.

[Exodus]

I never claimed that ‘God’ or any religious teaching was the reason behind my opinion of abortion.  Never.  Not once.

Short of limiting the of children a family can have (a’la Enders Game) or systematically killing off people to keep the population down (a’la – um – that episode of Sliders I saw once) there is no way to keep the effectively control the population, outside of conspiracy theories which don’t work.  I can only assume that you must be against stem-cell research then, since it has the potential to eliminate so many things that kill us, which keeps the population down.

And just because adoption is harder, takes longer, and is more work, does not eliminate it  a viable option.

Against Stem Cell research? No sir.

However, your argument for adoption does not hold water. I've already pointed out two things that make such an argument like yours so: There are already children waiting, and limited numbers of families willing to adopt.

Humanity was last surveyed as standing at roughly 6,000,000,000~. The cases of overcrowding have always led to an increase in import, and a decrease in export (which is a bad thing for a country. Eventually, you've spent more than your country actually has in Gold and Silver reserves. You're fucked.) Urban areas experience immense over-crowding. The value of your currency shoots down to about 3 cents USD. Trades with other countries are now impossible. Economy stagnates; you lose your job. Eventually, tired of the overcrowding in urban areas, you move to rural districts of your country. Restart at step one.

Let us observe one simple fact: Fetuses are not capable of any thought processes. They are completely dependent upon their mothers for sustenance. Is that really living? Can we associate a fetus with having a "soul" or a personality? Now, let us compare that to our mother who has just been knocked up, perhaps through rape, perhaps through consensual sex in which the condom failed. Whose life is more valuable? The practically non-living fetus, or the mother who already has two children and will lose her job if she does not accept an abortion?

It's not a startling leap of logic  to side with the mother in this case, really. You can relate with the mother; you're not even sure if the fetus is doing anything at all. It certainly isn't thinking; it isn't supporting itself. It displays no characteristics of living.

The roadblock here is that people believe that it is morally wrong to murder another human being (myself included, do not get me wrong). But can the fetus really be considered human at that point in its development? It does have the genes of a homo sapien sapien, but that isn't the definition of "human" I'm going by; is this unborn fetus really displaying human characteristics? I do not believe so. A baby acts as a leech upon its mother until it is approximately 2 years old, in which case it is capable of feeding itself. While the baby IS distinctly human in every other regard,  a fetus is not.

And I do apologize for my harsh demeanor. I simply felt that your spiel was completely unnecessary, if only because of its offensive connotations.

[Mystik3eb]

Overpopulation doesn't need to be the way it is. People need to move out of crowded areas. There's so much liveable earth out there that isn't occupied, and here we are complaining about it. I dunno, I myself see an obvious answer...keep population control by different means, if you must. If we're actually running out of space on the entire planet and oxygen is being consumed faster than replaced, resources are vanishing to the point of almost being completely gone (and they're in a frightening short supply as is), then it's a big problem that takes extreme measures to solve. Though really, by that point, we'll hopefully have a way to live off the resources of outside planets/moons, or our race as a whole is truly fucked.

In all honesty, however, I can't really say anything about overpopulation. All I know is we have tons of people living too close together, and we as the entire human race don't like it and wanna change it.

Exodus states his argument rather well, in my opinion. The only problem I personally have with it is the basis of letting the woman go with trying to enjoy sex while risking the natural consequences. If you're not willing to take the chance that you can become pregnant with the person you're sleeping with, then dammit, don't do it! Still, I suppose it's the rights of the women that are more respectable than upholding responsibility with the citizens of America. I just hope that this kind of action is heavily frowned upon in our society if it becomes legal.

As for stem-cell research, I'm all for it, especially if they've already got fetuses. That's a no-brainer. But I'm not against it anyway, I find it rather worth it. It's not like abortion, where you could call it murder and simply letting the woman get away with being irresponsible (typically). These fetuses are being put to good use. Very good use.

[Exodus]

Do you know the consequences of using "all of that extra land"?

And I have stated only two instances of sexual intercourse leading to the birth of a child, both of which were rape and the ever-present risk of a condom not doing as it should.

Which leads me to my next point: If "safer sex" policies were enforced, rather than the "no sex" policies we currently have set up, the problems we currently have would be nonexistent in developed countries. You would still have the occasional condom failure or rape, which would be excused. However, if "safer sex" policies were to be enforced, there wouldn't be a problem with child bearing in any sense of the word; it would be a choice to have a child if you refuse to wear a condom or other flow-stopping appendages.

Now, in the event that the woman did not practice any safe sex maneuvers and attempts to have an abortion, I would agree that it was immature of the woman in question; however, I firmly believe that fetuses are not humans in the same sense as you or I are humans. You and I would be capable of self-sustainability and rational-- hell, any kind of thought.  A fetus is not capable of such "necessities of life," shall we say.

[Zaperking]

Society is at loss here.

Remeber back in the 10th century when there was no such thing as teenage rebellion. No teen sex. People didn't go around having sex for fun. Now it has become such a thing. And back then, they couldn't have abortions. People lived it out. And now, in a better and modern world, selfish couples choose to abort their creation because they were irresponsible.

If God created humans in his image, he must be very upset over what people who have abortions are doing. He created us... He might have done a bad job because Adam and Eve ate the apple and didn't listen to him, but he let them live. Now look at people who have abortions. They kill off their creation. If you create something, it's your fault. It's you're accident or your consiquence. You should not have the right to destroy that creation, as the fetus should hold it's own life from that moment.

I don't see how you can call a Fetus a leech. It's the mothers body that is letting the fetus "leech". It's natural for it to happen, otherwise we wouldn't reproduce this way.

Everyone thinks of the Fetus as only potential? Why? I could say a baby is potential, because it could die before it does anything great. Everyone is potential. You, I, everyone was a fetus once. Remember that. Would you be happy now looking back at your parents and thinking that they held your life at a knifes edge? I have friend's who's parents said they were accidents, that they were thinking of abortions. But they let them live. A Fetus should have equal rights as any human being. I'd rather say that people like Saddam Hussein and George Bush don't deserve to live, and a Fetus should. A fetus can become many things, but a grown up human being cannot. Instead of being aborted, a fetus can compensate for another child who was born who is disabled or isn't educated. I remember reading about a woman who had scarlet fever. She couldn't hear or see, and i think talk either. People thought that she was brain dead and her parents wanted to kill her after she was born. But she displayed that she was still able to be taught. She had a tutor who would press her lips against hers and mime the letters of the alphabet. And this girl finally started to talk, yet she could never see or hear. She ended up writing very famous books. Yet I still forgot her name >.<

I'd actually rather say that a Fetus is more valuable than a real living human being. Especially all those sinners in the world.......

[Exodus]

Having read that, it becomes very apparent to me that you have read none of my refutations at all; I have maintained thoroughly my beliefs. Would you like to know, my dear friend Zaper, why there was no "teen sex" in the 19th century? Because it was acceptable for girls to marry at 15 years of age. However, as society has progressed (regressed, rather. It continues its boorish climb up a mountain of seeming  infinity) the age of consent has risen considerably.

I honestly can't see why, in light of all our discoveries-- Electricity, the atom, radiowaves, computers, genetic engineering, cloning, etc-- people continue to blindly follow in faith of a deity.

Maybe if God taps me on my shoulder or something, I'll believe in the things IDiots spout. Until then, I'm getting extremely sick of religionists maintaining that "while faith may have no backing, neither does science," when science is based on nothing but facts and irrefutable evidence.

[Mystik3eb]

Also, back then in alot of Christian-based societies, sex outside of marriage was punishable by death. Alot of motivation not to 'fuck around'.

[Zaperking]

Exodus.... I'm not a friend of the bible. I think half of it is a load of rubbish. I cant stand the vadicant with the Pope thinking he's so great, and I can't stand all those people who worship the Pope and see him as a god himself.

Look at all the inventions that we have, the bible could never have dreamed them up. I mean, they said that science was a blasphomy. What those idiots didn't realise is that anything that is allowed to happen is allowed by God. There's a passage in the bible that says that only with God's permission are things invented/discovered.

Maybe because I don't follow the Bible directly, I'm not Christian. But I'd like to think so because I still believe in God. And I believe in Reincarnation