Author Topic: Continuity of Radical Dreamers  (Read 10633 times)

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2005, 09:15:58 pm »
I don't think you could say the human brain and a computer are the same, as the human brain doesnt technically follow rules, doesnt nessisarilly have to be logical.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2005, 09:51:39 pm »
And why does a computer need to be?

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2005, 12:12:51 am »
Because when you write a computer program, everything needs to be based on rules, algoriths, etc etc.  Without doing so, it doesnt work.  Even the most advanced programs would require the use of such.

Aitrus

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2005, 12:17:36 am »
A sufficiently advanced computer could mimic human behavior to the point where it would be nigh-impossible to tell the difference, at which point one would have to being trying to figure out whether or not this means that the computer has rights as an individual.

To get back to the subject at hand (namely, RD), going off the evidence from the game itself that these are truly sentient individuals, then, if that entire world was merely a computer simulation, how does this new information remove any of the old pointing to their sentience?  Is a person any less real for not being made of flesh and blood?

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2005, 02:57:56 pm »
Sure, an AI could be nearly indistinguishable from a human brain, but I don't believe it could ever completely be able to think like a human brain, due to programs operating in a world of strict rules.

And me getting back to the subject at hand, I'll try and run with the idea a bit.  What if that Belthasar interfacing with this Computer generated world, Radical Dreamers, is the same way we do, via the game.  I mean, what if it was all simply a "game" (I mean this loosly), where the other characters really arn't sentient, but appear to be from the script?

Eggith Cyrene

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2005, 03:07:10 pm »
hmmmmm sounds plausible.

I happen to believe that a uber sophisticated program could have charectors where they have free will. Hell we could be in one giant dream/program now.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2005, 05:56:26 pm »
Yeah, but even though computers are based around such programming (aren't humans?), they can also be programmed to be random or whatever.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2005, 06:45:18 pm »
Random isn't thinking either.  In fact, that would be the opposite.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2005, 06:46:04 pm »
Computers don't do random. It's not in their nature. They also don't do multi-tasking (without multiple processors or cores). Both of these things, are just slight of hand. The thing is, computers just work fast enough that they can fool us into thinking they can do these things.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2005, 07:30:30 pm »
What random is to computers is simply using percentages to pick an output, rather than using condititions and such.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2005, 08:04:32 pm »
Actually, I think it would be possible for computers to be random. Not the ones now, certainly, because how could they choose such a number? They can only give output based upon input. But what if it chooses based on an external randomization say, something based upon quantum mechanics? That, if my memory serves, works upon the probability of things existing, but the actual existance is essentially random. What if a computer could measure the existance or non-existance of something such as that to achieve a wholly random number? Or, perhaps, the decay rate of radioactive elements? I've heard that it is possible to set up an experiment, termed Schrodinger's Cat, wherein a cat is in a sealed box with a gun to its head, and a hair trigger upon the weapon that will trigger if a radioactive element decays. The element has a 50/50 chance of decaying in one hour. The purpose of the experiment is to say that until it is 'observed', at the one hour mark the cat is both alive and dead, and when seen it falls into one state or another. Something to do with quantum realities, perhaps, and that multiple ones of these exist at once, but that we can only observe the probable timeline in which we exist. That is beside the point, however. What I meant by this is that a radioactive element can have a 50/50 chance of decaying. Set up five of these elements within a computer. Say that each of these is a binary number. Thus the ones that decay and do not can set up a binary number that is wholly random to five binal (correct form of the word?) places. Say, for example, 10010. There we have the random number 18. Such a system could give a randomization of up to 31, but a far larger system could be implemented. I am certain there are also other phenomena that exist in the real world that are both measurable and, to our perception and for all purposes, random (it may be that NOTHING is random save for quantum effects, and not even they... but we must look at it realistically. Most of what we see may be causality, but the forces that influence them are so grand, far-reaching, and beyond the influence of Man, that it may as well be random. After all, even shaking and casting lots is essentially dependent on the forces of physics that move about the the pieces, draw one to the ground and make it strike first, etc. A computer, thus, could be essentially random, if not in our day, then in a future world.

Funny thing is, though, can humans do random? If I were to ask someone for a random number, they likely wouldn't go into the millions; if they are in a joking mood, they might, but if not they will automatically bound the answer within reason. If there is something at stake, they will attempt to choose an unlikely number, or a number that has a higher statistically favourable probability. So can humans be random? Do we naturally make use of quantum-type things to come to random conclusions? Essentially, can it not be argued that a human brain must indeed follow a set of rules, or normality, bounded reason, input/output response, etc?

Just a thought. Personally, I'm all for believing in the existance of a soul and the like, and so see things most often in a philisophical rather than scientific light, and am more keen to see beauty than reason, and wondering mystery over full understanding and knowledge.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2005, 08:54:52 pm »
Heh, well, most of that went way over my head.  But regardless, random in its truest meaning is not thinking.  I still don't see a way to make a computer that truely thinks.

Shadow_Dragon

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2005, 09:05:00 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Funny thing is, though, can humans do random? If I were to ask someone for a random number, they likely wouldn't go into the millions; if they are in a joking mood, they might, but if not they will automatically bound the answer within reason. If there is something at stake, they will attempt to choose an unlikely number, or a number that has a higher statistically favourable probability. So can humans be random? Do we naturally make use of quantum-type things to come to random conclusions? Essentially, can it not be argued that a human brain must indeed follow a set of rules, or normality, bounded reason, input/output response, etc?


I don't think that humans can do random things, and that whatever we do that we consider 'random' is only so because we can't fully understand our subconscious, which, as far as I know, works like a highly-advanced computer... However, with the thing you said about a random number's being in the millions, in theory you can pick a number between 1 and 10 with the same randomness as picking a number between 1 and infinity, like how there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 10 and there are also an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and infinity. I said, "in theory", because, as I said before, I don't think that we can think randomly.

No one has a problem with rolling a die or picking a number between 1 and 10 if a random number is needed even though the result really isn't random, so a computer program that can simulate randomness on a level that we can would be sufficient (maybe it could simulate rolling an n-sided die and calculate the landing physically, with n being the number of possible outputs)

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2005, 06:51:06 am »
I read somewhere that people are researching to download peoples memories into computers by 2050, but it'll probably be only avaliable for rich people. PS3 is apparently 1% as powerful as the human brain or something. It can process 1 trillion calculatins a second or something. Then why can't humans do that >.<

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Continuity of Radical Dreamers
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 02:22:21 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
I read somewhere that people are researching to download peoples memories into computers by 2050, but it'll probably be only avaliable for rich people. PS3 is apparently 1% as powerful as the human brain or something. It can process 1 trillion calculatins a second or something. Then why can't humans do that >.<


The PS3 is built to do a small number of tasks very, very quickly. The human brain is built to do many different things, often simultaneously. Consider how much your brain is doing at any given time; monitoring and controlling heart rate, respiration, digestion, body temperature, to name a few. It is constantly taking in input from all 5 senses, determining what smells smell like, what other objects are around you, and identifiying them, even if you aren't focusing on them consciosly, determining what is in contact with every square inch of your body. Touch is a conglomeration of other senses, heat, pressure, etc. And this is still all unconscious function. While all this is going on, you are doing however many things you are doing.

Yes, the PS3 can crunch numbers faster, but it is nothing next to the human brain, or even the brain of most vertabrates.