Chrono Time

[Zaperking]

No... Thats what your saying about Marle...  Look, heres how I believe time to work in CT.  You have a timeline.  Someone goes back and changes the past.  From the point on to the future, is sent to the DBT.  Like this:
Lets say that the year 600ad = timeX.  Someone time travels to timeX and changes something.  Now, every point in time from timeX>600ad is "discarded" and "replaced" by a new timeline.

And isn't that totally against the Space-Time energy conservation theorm? If someone constantly keeps going back in time, to anywhere, And Crono and co do that a lot, then as Gaspar said, Time will rip apart. So wtf? It seems kind of pointless to remake a whole timeline when only 1 person is actually changed by it.

What... The... Hell...  Zaper, now its only SELECTIVE TTI!?  Its offical.  You don't know what your talking about.

No, you've lost your whole point. From your theories, TTI is selective.... TO TIME TRAVELLORS! No one in the game except for Crono and co Time travelled, hence in your belief, only they have TTI and the world doesn't. That's why something like Leene dying changes that whole conscept. We never got to experience any of Crono and co's descendants dying because they time travelled, hence none of them had the possibility of being sent to the DBT to assure us that the Marle incident isn't a plothole.

Its a shameless attempt for consistancy that works.  Its a theory.  No one likes the idea, but its better than accepting a plothole.

Indeed, but it's still shameless because no one can work out why. It'd be better if you left it a plothole, or just took away TTI and that way it'd be fixed.

[Chrono'99]

Now, since a countless number of people survived beyond 1999AD due to the actions of Crono and Co, that would in turn mean there would be countless decedents of those people, all the way up to 2400AD.  On the flip side, that means that the people who had survived in the ruined timeline would now, in the saved timeline, have more options when it comes to potential mates to have children of their own.  Thus, there is no guarantee that the chain of ancestor-decadents that would eventualy equal Doan would ever occur.

You forget that Doan is not a random villager though. He's the descendant of the Arris Director, who is the descendant of Marle of the royal Guardia family.

But lets say that all the right people needed got it on all the way to Doan's birthday.  This new Doan, Distinguished Healthy Doan, would have no knowledge of the ruined future, no memory of Chrono's party bringing him seeds, and no idea why the future would need saving.

Of course he wouldn't know all that. Lucca just has to tell him like she tells King Guardia XXXIII. In fact, even Old Decrepit Doan didn't know that Crono and co. were time-travelers who were trying to save the future (er... the present for Doan). That is, even if the Doan seen in the ending is the Old Decrepit one, Lucca still has to inform him of all the stuff. So if she can tell it to Old Decrepit Doan I don't see why she couldn't tell it to Distinguished Healthy Doan.

---

As for Doan's clothes, Square could just have reused the sprite. This pratice didn't begin with Garai in CC. In the Cyrus death's flashback, they did use the adult Frog sprite complete with his particular clothes for the young Glenn freshly turned into a frog, although that Glenn was supposed to have NPC clothes (like Fritz's).

[GrayLensman]

Whether or not a new version of Doan would be likely to exist in the new timeline is a moot point.  It is physically possible and it looks like that is what occurred in Chrono Trigger.

Doan uses the same "white haired old man in a brown suit with a cane" sprite which is a forgivable gameplay limitation.  Doan isn't necessarily in rags, either.  The perfectly respectable elder of Choras has the same sprite.

I also think the new Doan would have be grateful to the time travelers for saving the future.  His timeline would have the equivalent of the 1999 AD day of Lavos recording, showing a huge monster coming out of the ground, only to be defeated by the time travelers.  I'm sure Lucca could fill him in on the details and the time travelers would be well known historical figures as well.

OR Lucca could have taken the original Doan to the End of Time before the final fight to give him TTI, in which case he would have first hand knowledge of both timelines.

[Sentenal]

And isn't that totally against the Space-Time energy conservation theorm? If someone constantly keeps going back in time, to anywhere, And Crono and co do that a lot, then as Gaspar said, Time will rip apart. So wtf? It seems kind of pointless to remake a whole timeline when only 1 person is actually changed by it.

The only thing that Gaspar said that was when a group of 4 or more people time travel, they end up at the end of time.  He didn't say time would be ripped apart.

No, you've lost your whole point. From your theories, TTI is selective.... TO TIME TRAVELLORS! No one in the game except for Crono and co Time travelled, hence in your belief, only they have TTI and the world doesn't. That's why something like Leene dying changes that whole conscept. We never got to experience any of Crono and co's descendants dying because they time travelled, hence none of them had the possibility of being sent to the DBT to assure us that the Marle incident isn't a plothole.

...

Zaper, say this with me: TTI=Time Traveler's Immunity.  Of course only Time Travelers have TTI.  Because they have gained immunity from time changes which they themselves cause.  The world doesn't time travel.  People who havn't time traveled arn't time travelers.  Therefore, they don't have immunity.

Indeed, but it's still shameless because no one can work out why. It'd be better if you left it a plothole, or just took away TTI and that way it'd be fixed.

...

You just don't listen.

I also think the new Doan would have be grateful to the time travelers for saving the future. His timeline would have the equivalent of the 1999 AD day of Lavos recording, showing a huge monster coming out of the ground, only to be defeated by the time travelers. I'm sure Lucca could fill him in on the details and the time travelers would be well known historical figures as well.

Thats feasible too, I guess...

[Mystik3eb]

No, you've lost your whole point. From your theories, TTI is selective.... TO TIME TRAVELLORS! No one in the game except for Crono and co Time travelled, hence in your belief, only they have TTI and the world doesn't. That's why something like Leene dying changes that whole conscept. We never got to experience any of Crono and co's descendants dying because they time travelled, hence none of them had the possibility of being sent to the DBT to assure us that the Marle incident isn't a plothole.

...

Zaper, say this with me: TTI=Time Traveler's Immunity.  Of course only Time Travelers have TTI.  Because they have gained immunity from time changes which they themselves cause.  The world doesn't time travel.  People who havn't time traveled arn't time travelers.  Therefore, they don't have immunity.

You two are saying the exact same thing. What are you arguing about, exactly?

But yeah, Marle and Doan both sensibly would have to be plotholes, especially if you never ever took Lucca out of your party.

Actually, out of curiosity, what was the foundation for the establishment of the TTI theory? I'm very very unfamiliar with it. Time Bastard too, in fact. Are these explained in the articles? If they are...damn. Every time I try to read those, I look focus and interest very quickly. Too big of a chunk of reading in one article = sleepy Mystik. -_-

[Sentenal]

We arn't agreeing... Zaper doesn't believe in TTI.

Both Time Traveler's Immunity and the Time Bastard theory is explained in the Axioms article.

[GrayLensman]

Actually, out of curiosity, what was the foundation for the establishment of the TTI theory? I'm very very unfamiliar with it. Time Bastard too, in fact. Are these explained in the articles? If they are...damn. Every time I try to read those, I look focus and interest very quickly. Too big of a chunk of reading in one article = sleepy Mystik. -_-

The Axioms article is a good reference, but it is in need of revision.

[Zaperking]

We arn't agreeing... Zaper doesn't believe in TTI.

Your point being?

You two are saying the exact same thing. What are you arguing about, exactly?

He's being a meany poo and not following what he said.

...

Zaper, say this with me: TTI=Time Traveler's Immunity. Of course only Time Travelers have TTI. Because they have gained immunity from time changes which they themselves cause. The world doesn't time travel. People who havn't time traveled arn't time travelers. Therefore, they don't have immunity.

I already know. You were aruging against what I said. Are you even sure you're reading what you're saying? You said "What... The... Hell... Zaper, now its only SELECTIVE TTI!? Its offical. You don't know what your talking about."

Whether or not a new version of Doan would be likely to exist in the new timeline is a moot point.

A new version will exist in the future. You're one of the people who said that everytime there is a change in the past, a new timeline starts off. Hence, the old Doan will not exist. That's also kind of why Lucca was scared for Robo's future self because he might not exist, and if Robo leaves her, they'll never see eachother again because the gates are about to close - forever. I always thought that Belthasar got Robo and turned him into the Circuit anyway.

Doan uses the same "white haired old man in a brown suit with a cane" sprite which is a forgivable gameplay limitation. Doan isn't necessarily in rags, either. The perfectly respectable elder of Choras has the same sprite.

Good point, going by looks isn't just.

I also think the new Doan would have be grateful to the time travelers for saving the future. His timeline would have the equivalent of the 1999 AD day of Lavos recording, showing a huge monster coming out of the ground, only to be defeated by the time travelers. I'm sure Lucca could fill him in on the details and the time travelers would be well known historical figures as well.

The only thing that goes against that is that FATE and Chronopolis and the citizens of after 1999AD do not have full recordings. That's why Chronopolis has so many different versions of Lavos, because they used the Dead Sea's info to find out, as the actual Lavos dissapeared before he even broke through the surface, which would mean that he was even in his pocket dimension when he was leaving the core to tunnel up.
I'm not exactally sure, but the only way to prove your theory is if you find a statement from Chronopolis saying that those timetravellors did that.

On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins.
   However, a group of young
   time travelers saw where
   their planet's history was
   heading and, through their
   actions, rewrote time.
   This very research facility
   exists on that new time line...
   In a world where, thanks to
   the defeat of Lavos by the
   young adventurers, the
   Apocalypse never happened...
   On a temporal vector where
   human civilization continued
   to evolve unhampered.
   All the data on Lavos that was
   obtained from tracing different
   parallel world possibilities
   has proven to be volatile, with
   fluctuating discrepencies.
   Perhaps, at this point in time,
   it is nearly impossible to
   obtain any true information
   about Lavos.

From what I can infer, it was as if a timeline was dumped ontop of 1999AD, as if Lavos never exited but was already dead. It's like saying that Crono and co defeated him once still in their whole time line, then everything from 1000AD was written into the future, and that's why Chronopolis can only think that such a thing occured. It seems as if they're looking at other timelines to find it out, and not their actual past.

Also, Chronopolis is a top secret facility, and unless Doan had anything to do with it (he wont since he's from 2300AD if he's the new one or old timeline one) he wouldn't know anything about the travellors.

OR Lucca could have taken the original Doan to the End of Time before the final fight to give him TTI, in which case he would have first hand knowledge of both timelines.

Well, since we actually play the whole game up to the battle with no event such as that.... >.> Actually, a Marle type incident should happen. Because the new future happens and different people might meet others who normally died because of the Apocalypse may cause it so that Doan wasn't even born, and would dissapear if he goes into the future. Or something >.< *Head hurts*

[Mystik3eb]

They might not have a video of Lavos rising at all in 1999. The only way that would happen is if the party transported there through the bucket.

[Zaperking]

Or if they entered the pocket dimension, which they did. You know, I don't even think Lavos exited it in 1999AD. Just imagine a jet of water exploding from a pipe in the ground. Now imagine that the jet of water is hollow and inside is a parasite (Lavos). Lavos is still in his pocket dimension, but the dimension is the one that broke through the surface, possibly because of his immense power, that was why the land kind of hovered.

[Chrono'99]

The Arris Director from 1,999 AD knew Lavos' name and recognized him when he saw him on the screen. Lavos isn't a secret or anything. Or maybe he is, but since Doan is a descendant of the Director he would have more chances of knowing what happened than a normal villager.

[Zaperking]

Yes, But as we said again:
Because the timeline was saved, someone who should have been Doan's Great Great Great Grandmother may have found love with another man whom would have never been born if Lavos destroyed the world. It was just like Lucca's fear that by saving the future, they denied people to be born who were only going to be born in the ruined future.

Also with the director of the Arris Dome, if he even saw anything, he'd be sworn to secrecy somehow. Chronopolis seems like a very powerful organisation, and if anything was out, they'd hush it pretty quickly.
But from what I infered, Lavos never even came to the surface of the world because of Crono and co defeating him. That was why FATE and Chronopolis had to look into dead timelines and into the Dead Sea to discover anything on Lavos. Even those diagrams of Lavos were so different because FATE probably put all those pieces together to make up a plausible Lavos.

[Sentenal]

Zaper, you just keep pulling things out of your ass and claiming them as fact or logical theory!  This is getting frustrating...

The only thing that goes against that is that FATE and Chronopolis and the citizens of after 1999AD do not have full recordings. That's why Chronopolis has so many different versions of Lavos, because they used the Dead Sea's info to find out, as the actual Lavos dissapeared before he even broke through the surface, which would mean that he was even in his pocket dimension when he was leaving the core to tunnel up.
I'm not exactally sure, but the only way to prove your theory is if you find a statement from Chronopolis saying that those timetravellors did that.
...
From what I can infer, it was as if a timeline was dumped ontop of 1999AD, as if Lavos never exited but was already dead. It's like saying that Crono and co defeated him once still in their whole time line, then everything from 1000AD was written into the future, and that's why Chronopolis can only think that such a thing occured. It seems as if they're looking at other timelines to find it out, and not their actual past.

Also, Chronopolis is a top secret facility, and unless Doan had anything to do with it (he wont since he's from 2300AD if he's the new one or old timeline one) he wouldn't know anything about the travellors.

Actually, it says that the data is "volatile", and has "discrepencies".  It doesn't say that they don't have any data.  Hell, look at the top of that block you posted: It says that a young group of Time Travelers defeated Lavos.

Chronopolis is a top secret facility?  PROOF.  Plus, irrelavant.

Well, since we actually play the whole game up to the battle with no event such as that.... >.> Actually, a Marle type incident should happen. Because the new future happens and different people might meet others who normally died because of the Apocalypse may cause it so that Doan wasn't even born, and would dissapear if he goes into the future. Or something >.< *Head hurts*

No, because the Marle inciddent is a plot hole.

They might not have a video of Lavos rising at all in 1999. The only way that would happen is if the party transported there through the bucket.

Lavos rising in 1999 is canon:

On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins.

Thats the one CC is built off of.  The only one we really care about.

Also with the director of the Arris Dome, if he even saw anything, he'd be sworn to secrecy somehow. Chronopolis seems like a very powerful organisation, and if anything was out, they'd hush it pretty quickly.
But from what I infered, Lavos never even came to the surface of the world because of Crono and co defeating him. That was why FATE and Chronopolis had to look into dead timelines and into the Dead Sea to discover anything on Lavos. Even those diagrams of Lavos were so different because FATE probably put all those pieces together to make up a plausible Lavos.

In the "game over" ending of CT, when Lavos was erupting and destroying the Planet, the director muttered "Lavos" before he apparently died.  One, he was at Arris Dome.  Two, Lavos doesn't wear a name tag.  Apparently, he was able to recognize Lavos by how it looks, and know its name.

Chronopolis wasn't built until post 2300, so there is no way they could have silenced him.  People knew about Lavos.

[Zaperking]

No, You stop pulling things our of your arse. Enough with your vendeta against me.

Actually, it says that the data is "volatile", and has "discrepencies". It doesn't say that they don't have any data. Hell, look at the top of that block you posted: It says that a young group of Time Travelers defeated Lavos.

Chronopolis is a top secret facility? PROOF. Plus, irrelavant.

1) It has discrepencies because they can't get the full date on Lavos from their timeline. If you can't reread the quote, don't post on it.
Proof? PROOF? Use your common sence or shut the f&%^ up with your theory ideas. If you've never read the first part of Chronopolis, it says it's a military place where they work for the benefit of the children or something. Chronopolis is top secret, and if you look into the game script, even the Counter-Time Experiment and Frozen Flame, and anything to do with the real Chronopolis is Top Secret.
Things are only irrelevant to you because you don't want to answer them. Cheap.

No, because the Marle inciddent is a plot hole.

In your opinion.

Lavos rising in 1999 is canon

Only to the plot.

Thats the one CC is built off of. The only one we really care about.

The point is that there is no real record of it happening in their timeline. That's why thye're saying that "in some timelines". In their timeline, Lavos was dead. Remember, Lavos is connected to 12,000AD. Crono and co defeat him in 1999AD, hence deleting him from all of time. They go back to their time and because they time travelled, another timeline is built ontop, and no Lavos appears.

Most of this stuff isn't my own. I'm trying to make it sound plausible, and I don't say it's fact, Sentenal.

In the "game over" ending of CT, when Lavos was erupting and destroying the Planet, the director muttered "Lavos" before he apparently died. One, he was at Arris Dome. Two, Lavos doesn't wear a name tag. Apparently, he was able to recognize Lavos by how it looks, and know its name.

Chronopolis wasn't built until post 2300, so there is no way they could have silenced him. People knew about Lavos.

Lavos = Big Fire. If Ayla's language is for instance the equivilant to Latin, then La Vos may mean Big Fire and the Director may have used it appropriately.

Also, Lavos may have been a legend or an urban myth. It would not have been fact. Just like Zeal is not fact to them. also, I'm not sure which one is correct, but either Chronopolis or FATE was already built by 2300AD.

Stop being so mean to me >.<

[AuraTwilight]

Lavos rising in 1999 is canon

Only to the plot.

....LOL! And yet we're having a plot analysis debate. Good one.

The point is that there is no real record of it happening in their timeline. That's why thye're saying that "in some timelines". In their timeline, Lavos was dead. Remember, Lavos is connected to 12,000AD. Crono and co defeat him in 1999AD, hence deleting him from all of time. They go back to their time and because they time travelled, another timeline is built ontop, and no Lavos appears.

...If Lavos got deleted from all time, there'd be no humanity. Nice going, bucko. Lavos only got "deleted" from 1999 and onward. That's it.

Lavos = Big Fire. If Ayla's language is for instance the equivilant to Latin, then La Vos may mean Big Fire and the Director may have used it appropriately.

If, IF, Ayla's language was intended to be Latin's counterpart, any traces of it were probably destroyed by the Zealians and their own language, and if not them, then the big ass flood Lavos created with his PMS.