Guardia's Odd Inheritance

[Sentenal]

No problem.  

We don't know that every single generation of hiers of Guardia were female.  It was apparent to me that Leene was married into the family.  Why would this be any different?

[Sir Frog]

Hi, everyone!  This is my first post on the Chrono Compendium. You may know me from the GameFAQs boards as dacb1984.

Now for the matter of Guardia's line of succession:

Observation 1
- Young Woman, Truce Residence, 1000 A.D.: "Hard to believe Guardia is now 1000 years old, and our King is the XXXIII descendant to the throne!"

Conclusions:
- Since King Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd ascendant to the throne, we can conclude that all previous monarchs were called King Guardia. (However, see my endnote.)
- Guardia's crown has always been passed on to a male heir.


Observation 2
- Lucca: "Marle, that is, Princess Nadia, is a descendant of Queen Leene."
- Princess Nadia is a dead ringer for her late mother, Queen Aliza.
- Princess Nadia is a dead ringer for Queen Leene.

Conclusions:
- Queen Aliza was a dead ringer for Queen Leene (by syllogism).  
- Queen Aliza was a direct descendant of Queen Leene.
- Queen Aliza and King Guardia XXXIII were distant cousins (since they are both direct descendants of Queen Leene).


Observation 3
- Throughout Crono's adventures in 600 A.D., it is clear from King Guardia XXI's words and actions that he, and not his wife, is in charge.  The following quote is but one example:

From Zeality's Text Dump:

[Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.]

KING: Hello!
   You're always welcome here.
   What can I do for you?
...
Frog: We asketh a favor...
...
KING: I get it. You want me to keep
   that huge shell safe here until the
   next century, right?

LEENE: I ask for the sake of  [Frog].
   Please carry out their request.

KING: Done!
   I shall obtain the shell and store it in
   the castle, as a national treasure.  

- Also, note that the King's throne is much larger than the Queen's.

Conclusion: King Guardia XXI is the monarch, and his wife, Queen Leene, is his queen consort.  Of course, this conclusion follows directly from Observation 1, but I mention it nevertheless to strengthen my point that the line of succession is through male heirs.


SUMMARY:  The crown in Guardia is passed on to male heirs.  King Guardia XXXIII, Marle's father, is of royal blood and was, presumably, heir to his father, King Guardia XXXII.  Marle's late mother, Queen Aliza, was never heir to the throne, although she is directly descended from Queen Leene.  (Perhaps King Guardia XXI and Leene had two children and one became King Guardia XXII and the other sired Aliza's great great great...and so on...grandfather.)

I should stress here that Queen Leene and Queen Aliza are 12 generations apart, so Marle's parents are only distantly related.  I imagine that King Guardia XXXIII and Aliza would have been aware of their relation when they were married, but it is certainly not uncommon (at least in our universe) for royalty to marry cousins, let alone extremely distant cousins.  

Anyway, I hope this resolves all of the issues.  

~ Sir Frog (aka dacb1984)


Endnote: Of course, if you interpret the woman's quote literally, then King Guardia XXXIII is the 34th monarch (since he is the 33rd descendant), meaning that there must have been one monarch whose name was not King Guardia.  There are two possibilities: either a King assumed a different name or there was once a regent (i.e., ruling) Queen.  However, Queen Leene was certainly not a monarch, as concluded from Observation 3.

[Sentenal]

Another thought about Marle being Leene's decendant:

Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line?  If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well.  They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.  I don't see how "direct decendant" would imply on gender or another.

[Sir Frog]

Quoth Sentenal:

Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.

Sentenal, did you not read my post?  I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene.  This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins.  The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs.  In other words, it's irrefutable.

[Epsilon]

Quoth Sentenal:

Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.

Sentenal, did you not read my post?  I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene.  This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins.  The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs.  In other words, it's irrefutable.

Could Aliza not simply be a Guardian noblewoman of a branch of the Guardia Royal Family? For example, say Queen Leene had two sons. One became King Guardia XXII, and the other (we'll call him Paul) simply becomes a noble. Later on, King Guardia XXXIII marries a woman from Paul's branch of the royal family, Aliza...

[Sir Frog]

Epsilon, did you not read my post?  

To quote myself:

Summary: The crown in Guardia is passed on to male heirs. King Guardia XXXIII, Marle's father, is of royal blood and was, presumably, heir to his father, King Guardia XXXII. Marle's late mother, Queen Aliza, was never heir to the throne, although she is directly descended from Queen Leene. (Perhaps King Guardia XXI and Leene had two children and one became King Guardia XXII and the other sired Aliza's great great great...and so on...grandfather.)

So, to answer your question, not only is it possible that Aliza is a member of a different branch of the Guardia family, but it is also probable.

I put quite a bit of effort into my first post on this thread (which, incidentally, was my first post, period) so I am a little dismayed that nobody has bothered to read it.  If it doesn't answer all questions on the subject, then by all means, question my conclusions.  But please, at least read my first post before needlessly debating points that have been covered.  

~ Sir Frog (aka dacb1984)

[Sentenal]

Quoth Sentenal:

Why is this significant, why would this make you think that females are those who carry on the Guardian line? If King Guardia XXXIII was not the one married into the family, but Queen Aliza was, that would make Guardia XXXIII a direct decendant of Queen Leene as well. They would both be direct decendants of Guardia XXI too.

Sentenal, did you not read my post?  I showed in no uncertain terms (using direct evidence from the game) that both King Guardia XXXIII and his wife Aliza are directly descended from King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene.  This means, of course, that Marle's parents are distant cousins.  The only way to refute this would be to ignore some of the comments made by the game's NPCs.  In other words, it's irrefutable.

Do you realize I wasn't refering to your post?  And where does it say Queen Aliza looked like Queen Leene?  If you are refering to Marle looking like Aliza, and looking like Leene, thats not proof.  Thats theory.  She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza.  And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?

I did read your post, and don't get so hostile when people don't agree with all of it.  Your conclusions are possible, but not certain.

[Sir Frog]

Sorry.  I did in fact know you weren't referring to my post.  I suppose that's why I became upset when I saw that you suggested precisely what I had already suggested (and backed up with evidence). That's all.  

Quoth Sentenal:

She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza. And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?

Regarding your comment, you are correct that nowhere in the game does anyone say Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene.  However, it is established that each of them is a dead ringer for Marle.  Below are the relevant quotes (which I confirmed using Zeality's Text Dump):

Soldier, Guardia Castle, 1000 A.D.: "Princess Nadia's a dead ringer for her mother. That's why the King's so strict with her."
Leene's Attendant, Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.: "Which means the real Leene was somewhere else. It's exactly as I thought. But you're [Marle] a dead ringer for her."

So, there you have it.  Marle is a dead ringer for Leene, as well as for Aliza.  By syllogism (i.e., A = B and A = C, therefore B = C), Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene.  Since a dead ringer is a person who is almost identical to another, there is no way Marle could be a dead ringer for two people who themselves look only similar to each other.

[V_Translanka]

Okay...I only briefly glanced over Sir Frog's Conclusions and such...So, bare w/me if I'm totally fucked and repeating anything...

What about Crono becoming the King? He's not an heir, yet, he acquires some kind of crown...

Is it possible that last names AREN'T passed from males like in our world? Perhaps they are carried on through the women?

[Sir Frog]

You raise two interesting points.  It is certainly possible that last names are not passed down at all.  (In fact, there is little reason to believe that they are.  Think of the size of Truce.  Crono could simply be "Crono of Truce" for all we know.  But I digress.)

What is certain is that all of Guardia's monarchs (with the possible exception of one; see the endnote in my first post for more details) have assumed the name King Guardia.  However, I would bet my right arm that King Guardia XXXIII has a first name.  That is, I doubt that people called him Prince Guardia XXXIII when he was growing up!

What about Crono becoming the King? He's not an heir, yet, he acquires some kind of crown...

I assume you are referring to the Playstation ending FMV.  Crono receives a crown because he becomes a prince by marrying the princess.  That is all we know for sure.  It is uncertain whether Crono would become King Guardia XXXIV once the current king dies.  Perhaps Marle would become the monarch (i.e., Queen regent) and Crono would simply be a prince.  (Compare this to the present day situation in the UK where the Queen is of royal blood and her husband, Prince Philip, is not a king.)

Once again, all we know is that historically, all of Guardia's monarchs have been kings (again, with one possible exception).  And since the game makes it pretty clear that King Guardia XXI is Marle's ancestor, I think it's safe to assume that Guardia's crown is passed on to the king's son--if he has one.   When the king has no son, as is the case in 1000 A.D., the game gives no indication who the heir to throne is.  The next monarch could be the king's daughter, or it could be whomever the king's daughter marries, or it could be someone else entirely.  The chancellor, for instance.  Who knows?  

(If you're wondering why I suggested the chancellor, recall that when King Guardia is found guilty of stealing the Rainbow Shell, Yakra XIII--posing as the chancellor--believes he is next in line.  Just thought I'd throw that in there for the sake of completeness.   )

[Sentenal]

Sorry.  I did in fact know you weren't referring to my post.  I suppose that's why I became upset when I saw that you suggested precisely what I had already suggested (and backed up with evidence). That's all.  

Quoth Sentenal:

She could have shared some traits with Leene that made people think she looked alot like her, and shared some different traits wtih Aliza. And when exactly did they say she was a dead-ringer for Aliza?

Regarding your comment, you are correct that nowhere in the game does anyone say Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene.  However, it is established that each of them is a dead ringer for Marle.  Below are the relevant quotes (which I confirmed using Zeality's Text Dump):

Soldier, Guardia Castle, 1000 A.D.: "Princess Nadia's a dead ringer for her mother. That's why the King's so strict with her."
Leene's Attendant, Guardia Castle, 600 A.D.: "Which means the real Leene was somewhere else. It's exactly as I thought. But you're [Marle] a dead ringer for her."

So, there you have it.  Marle is a dead ringer for Leene, as well as for Aliza.  By syllogism (i.e., A = B and A = C, therefore B = C), Aliza is a dead ringer for Leene.  Since a dead ringer is a person who is almost identical to another, there is no way Marle could be a dead ringer for two people who themselves look only similar to each other.

Its also remarked that Marle looks much younger than Leene, younger than how she looked on her wedding day.

As for the PSX ending, I assume that is simply a cerimonial crown, showing that he is now a prince.

[Luminaire85]

What is certain is that all of Guardia's monarchs (with the possible exception of one; see the endnote in my first post for more details) have assumed the name King Guardia. However, I would bet my right arm that King Guardia XXXIII has a first name.

This seems logical to me. A parallel can be drawn to the papacy; for example, Pope Benedict XVI was named Joseph Ratzinger, but I imagine he has been nearly exclusively referred to as Pope Benedict since his inauguration.

[Assassin of Time]

In most families, and in most cultures, male children carry the good name and heritage of the family through generations.

This is due to Christian interference with structure, and Constantine's want to make Jesus devine and make males have more power than females. Before that alot of people were pagan (no, that's not devil worship, most worshiped a goddess, or the sun) and family structures were matriarchial. Christian leaders in the 4th century pushed really hard to supress the power of the goddess by saying they were evil, devil worshipers, etc, along with tossing out the bible books that expressed Jesus as a mortal. But this is all besides the point.    There isn't any Christian ties to the Chrono universe that I know of, maybe besides the Cathedrial, (no sign of them practicing a Christian ritual there) so we can assume that family structures were possibley matriarchial, as apposed to patriarchial.

[Sentenal]

What?  No.  ALL anicent civilazions have had male dominance, regardless of religion.

[Salvadeiro]

Beside the Amazons, they were the only ones, but they don't count as an ancient civilization so what am I talking about.  Amazons were the reverse, they "stole" their men from tribes and only used them for sex and pro-creation, im pretty sure they were mostly lesbians, one breasted lesbians.

Also another thing I thought about, just because they're named "King" doesn't necessarily make them male in all cases.  I learned about a pharoah-ess from Eygpt who took over her husbands throne after death, and ruled as pharoah, the male part.  She went on to have statues with beards and what not, i have not a clue what her name is.  But yeah, also, another thing, the Queen could be behind the whole operation of the King.  What I'm trying to say is the King would be a puppet to the queen, so really the Queen is the true ruler, but the king carries it out.  This is how most weak rulers [kings] lived their lives.