Janus and the Gurus fate....

[kennyj2003]

Ok Ive played Chrono Trigger probally a hundered times and Ive noticed something that no one has mentioned(not that I kind find anyway) that has bothered me. In Magus's flashback at North Cape, it shows him and the gurus being transported via gates to diffrent time periods. Well when you confront Zeal and the mammon machine in the ocean palace Janus and others aren't around or sucked into gates. Woudn't that have changed history and forced the gurus and Janus to have remained in Zeal, meaning no finished epoch,no Gaspar at the end of time to give the Chrono Trigger to revive Crono, and no melchior to fix the masamune? and if those events were true nobody to fix the masamune in 1000 A.d. to fight magus or give knowledge of the dreamstone, or no epoch to break the seal. Now before Im flamed its merely an observational opinion and i was wondering if i overlooked something or not.

[Zaperking]

Well, That was the vision from Magus' own past or what happened that time around anyway. What would have happened is that after Crono was killed and Schala teleported the others, she went back towards her mother to confront her or whatever. The Guru's come to stop it aswell, and realise that Lavos is behind that power. Janus comes and then Lavos' power causes the gates to open, and the Guru's and Janus are sucked in.

[kennyj2003]

Oh ok I see , thanx for clearing that up. And I dont mean to question your knowledge but is that speculation or something that has been widespread accepted?

[Zaperking]

I think it's the most obvious answer.

The reason why some people think that Magus retains his memories is because of his Time Travellors Immunity. So he should remember only the past in his old timeline.
Though because the Guru's were there when the Mammon Machine exploded etcs, but then were no where to be seen, it's logical to think that they either got sucked in before Crono and co got pulled into the Pocket Dimension, or only after Crono died and the others got teleported out.

[kennyj2003]

ok thanx. again sorry for second guessing your reason  

[Zaperking]

Don't worry, I'm used to it. Most people get me wrong with my ideas/theories since they are scared of my simplicity. They do forget that usually the simplest answer is the correct one.

[Sentenal]

Don't worry, people don't get flamed here unless they're insane

There are two answers:  One, is what Zaper said.  Unfortunately, there is absolutly no evidence of this, and is very unlikely that she would go back and try and confront Zeal AFTER the Mammon Machine had already been activated.  Not to mention that after Crono gets killed, Lavos destroys Zeal, so it would kinda be too late.  Not to mention there is next to no chance for those Gurus to even get to the Ocean Palace after the Prophet exiled them.

The other one is Time Traveler's Immunity.  Magus remmbers it that way because thats how it happend in timeline that he grew up in.  However, it clearly didn't happen that way from what we played.

The Time Traveler's Immunity idea is much more widely accepted than the theory Zaper said.

[GrayLensman]

Well, That was the vision from Magus' own past or what happened that time around anyway. What would have happened is that after Crono was killed and Schala teleported the others, she went back towards her mother to confront her or whatever. The Guru's come to stop it aswell, and realise that Lavos is behind that power. Janus comes and then Lavos' power causes the gates to open, and the Guru's and Janus are sucked in.

That is incorrect.

ELDER: When the disaster struck, an
   eerie, black portal materialized.
   Melchior tried to save Janus, but he
   was also dragged in.

Melchior and Janus remained in Algetty and the portals appeared there.  Presumably, the same thing happened to Gaspar and Belthasar wherever they were in exile.

This may also be an example of the Time Bastard theory in action.

The reason why some people think that Magus retains his memories is because of his Time Travellors Immunity. So he should remember only the past in his old timeline.

Magus's past was significantly changed, but his memories were not affected.  This is a perfect example of Time Traveler Immunity.

[kennyj2003]

yeah i see how that could screw his past up, living with melchior and all....hes crazy

[Zaperking]

1)
Why would the Guru's be sent in time if they were not at the palace. The most accepted theory by almost everyone is that Lavos' energy caused the timegates to materialize upon the Guru's and Janus.

Plus, My idea has credit. Senetenal ,you're insane. Zeal never died. She was there all along with Lavos, and then raised the Black Omen.
And don't incine that i'm insane when you have forgotten that the Mammon Machine is still there, and still active!

You cannot disprove or prove that The Guru's and Janus did not appear at the Ocean Palace after Crono and co died. If I remember correctly, someone says that Janus was using Schala and Queen Zeal to get to the Ocean Palace and to Lavos.

Also, because Zeal was ontop of Lavos in Magus' memory, that means that Zeal and Lavos still became friends or whatever. Zeal jumps on his back because she knows that he will allow her. Hence, that means that Zeal should not have died in 12,000AD unless she was forcefully teleported away with Schala's last power. But because this memory also has Zeal on Lavos' back, and she's on Lavos' back when Crono and co confront her, we can assume that it might be the same memory. The Guru's may have followed Crono and co after, and by the time they had got there, it was too late.

[Naz]

Zeal wasn't on Lavos' back in the memory...She was only standing in front of him. There's really no way to tell if she was evil, since she has no dialogue or actions in that whole scene.

[Mystik3eb]

Alright Zaper, now I'm starting to get really annoyed. Look at what Gray quoted. Actually read it:

ELDER: When the disaster struck, an
eerie, black portal materialized.
Melchior tried to save Janus, but he
was also dragged in.

The Elder of Algetty states VERY CLEARLY that Janus and Melchior, in the Keystone Timeline, fell through portals that appeared there, in Algetty, where Janus and Melchior were. About the other two Gurus, we don't know from in-game evidence, but it's assumed they fell into gates wherever they were, since that's what apparently happened to Janus and Melchior.

And Sentenal didn't say QUEEN ZEAL died, he said Lavos destroyed the floating continent Zeal.

[Zaperking]

And Sentenal didn't say QUEEN ZEAL died, he said Lavos destroyed the floating continent Zeal.

Zeal wasn't on Lavos' back in the memory

My Bad then.

Now. To make you all understand..

1) DALTON KIDNAPPED SCHALA AND JANUS! Melchior stayed in Algetty. Janus does not like Algetty and was at the Ocean Palace or in Zeal! Now because if by your logic, Melchior stayed in Algetty, then he would not have been anywhere close enough to prevent Janus from going into a protal.
Do you even notice that the Elder seems to be talking from reaccounted information?

Frog: That maiden, Schala.  Whither hath she gone?

Elder: I don't know.  No one has seen her since.

Because Melchior and Janus' dissaperance brings up where Schala is, it's obviousally in context. Hence it adds onto the fact that someone must have observed and told the Elder.

[kennyj2003]

true i had forgotten dalton kidnapped janus so god knows where he is. He could be in that energy prison like chrono and crew. or even banished to algetty where someone other than the elder saw him gated out like you said.

[Mystik3eb]

Ok, I just read the CT script, and Dalton does NOT take Janus. Now, someone in Algetty does say Janus went toward the Skyway to go after them, but...

A) We don't know if this is a mistranslation again or not

B) If it's correct, we don't know how far Janus got. Regardless, the old man does say Melchior tried to save Janus from falling in the gate, but fell in himself. Someone saw it happen, and it wasn't in the Ocean Palace, wherever that was.