Yet Another Theory on the Rise of Porre

[ShoeMagus]

I think there are things not being considered in the Rise of Porre.

What do we know? We know that somehow the Masamune went from being the holy Lavos slawyin sword, to a cursed evil sword drawing forth deep seated hatreds. There's speculation of Porre having its own military and that would make sense. But a few ideas.

One: We'll say Porre is part of Guardia. Now it could have its own military or it could just have an occupation of soldiers, probably some that were born in Porre.

Two: There was some catalyst that sent Porre into power. Something gave rise. The Dalton Theory suggests that Dalton was sucked foward to the Present and managed to take over. Whether it was Dalton or someone else, it all relates to my idea.

The Masamune's power comes from the weilder. Its been suggested that the Masamune's corruption has something to do with Masa and Mune, but they were only Safeguards. They were only there to make sure that the Sword stayed with the purpose it was supposed to. Obviously they failed somehow. But really, Masa and Mune (and later Doreen) have nothing to do with teh sword's power. That rather comes from the Dreamstone it was made from.

Now what is the Dreamstone famous for? Why is it called Dreamstone? Because its power is to take the potentials within us, our hopes and dreams, our feelings and emotions and translate them into reality, thus giving rise to magic.

Now while the Masamune was in the Frog's possession, Crono's (as the Red knife) and Melechior's, it is regarded as holy and good. Something to stand against evil. Yet it went with Frog back to 600 where he lived to a ripe old age (purely speculation of course Razz ) and the Sword went on. It no doubt was in Guardia's possession.

Now we have four hundred years. Four hundred years of both good and bad men having access to it. Each successive person imbuing it with their own emotions. But there was regularity. But obviously it would have been exposed to negativity. Masa and Mune would be sleeping, believing Lavos done with and their purpose finished. So they wouldn't regulate the power. All it would have taken was the right evil man to come by (hell maybe Yakra masquerading as the Chancellor) to have his feelings transferred over. Hate, malice, cruelty and greed. Now the Sword has had affect on people using it (as apparent with Karsh/Dario scenario). Could the evil feelings led to some political unrest. So the peaceful kingdom of Guardia wasn't so peaceful?

Enter Porre. We have a charismatic and impressive leader (Dalton we'll say but its not dependant on him.) We have him expound the idea that Guardia's time is over and that Porre will stand to correct the problem. Given Dalton is from Zeal, he may have knowledge of the Black Wind which may have lead him to use that name (though thats dependant on Dalton being the leader.)

So Dalton mobilizes against Guardia. Now either he attacks Guardia or he steals the Masamune and attacks. Either way he gets ahold of the sword and so begins the Massacre of 1005.

We have observed Dalton's behavior as being power hungry. Note that the Masamune caused Dario and Radius to both take out threats to them being the top of the Devas. So is it so strange that Dalton got ahold of teh Sword, and his power hungry nature translated, corrupting the Masamune?

After the influence of whoever came before (The False Chancellor for example, and the present King Guardia when he was being a moron) along with Dalton's final massacre and corruption, it would indeed be enough to upset everything Frog, Melechior, and Crono had done, thus making it the Cursed Sword.

A lot of this ties Dalton in. But Dalton isn't needed. Motive for a Dalton-less Porre nation? Well like I said, continued influence of a steadily more and more evil Masamune on Guardia and its higher ups (as it would no doubt be kept in the Castle) would cause political unrest leaving things open for a revolt. Who else but disgruntled Guardia Knights joining the first rebellious leader synthesized with Porre's military (though once again that might not have existed.) As The Guardia military always considered itself honorable and just (more emphasized in 600 AD but no doubt carried on) it is plenty of motive to leave a politically unrest and injust Guardia in favor of Porre, who comes out looking golden.

Other factors in the political unrest? Well the King being put on trial and the subsequent battle in the courthouse (which will have been spread like fire with rumors abound.) The subsequent unrest of whether the King was guilty or not. Things like Crono's scheduled execution (which anybody knowing Crono would know is sham and would mistrust Guardia, and on the inverse, anybody believing Crono evil questioning Crono's pardon.) And the young Fritz, caught with a band of thieves (Radical Dreamers?).

[Sentenal]

Dalton theorys on this make me chuckle...  heh

The masamune was not corrupted until 1005, when the fall was taking place.



Look.  Here, its clearly during the war.  Also, note that the Masamune is in its "Holy Sword" form.  When its an ugly red stick, its evil.  When Frog had it (in this form), it was an awesome evil killing broadsword.  We can draw from this that the sword was corrupted by/after this event.

[Zaperking]

Could Lynx have anything to so with the corruption? I'm not saying Lynx caused the war (Obviousally he didn't since he wasn't created then) but if the sword was still pure until a certain time, may have Lynx gotten ahold of it and done something to it?

In Karsh's flashback, we see Lynx coming out of nowhere and telling Karsh what to say if anyone asks and taking the sword off him. And the Sword didn't do anything to him. The sword may not have been able to do anything because he doesn't have a soul, but the Sword's own evil spirit should have possessed Lynx's empty shell and used it as a host atleast, like it does to nearly everyone else, or it feeds of their inner desires.

[ShoeMagus]

Dalton theorys on this make me chuckle...  heh

The masamune was not corrupted until 1005, when the fall was taking place.



Look.  Here, its clearly during the war.  Also, note that the Masamune is in its "Holy Sword" form.  When its an ugly red stick, its evil.  When Frog had it (in this form), it was an awesome evil killing broadsword.  We can draw from this that the sword was corrupted by/after this event.

Of course its not going to be the demonic red sword urging people to commit murder. The major corruption took place during the Fall.

But minor corruptions, not enough to warp it, but enough to have a different type of energy (a darker kind though not the massacre style kind as no one was massacred until the Fall) to emanate and possibly corrupt the government.

[Sentenal]

Could Lynx have anything to so with the corruption? I'm not saying Lynx caused the war (Obviousally he didn't since he wasn't created then) but if the sword was still pure until a certain time, may have Lynx gotten ahold of it and done something to it?

In Karsh's flashback, we see Lynx coming out of nowhere and telling Karsh what to say if anyone asks and taking the sword off him. And the Sword didn't do anything to him. The sword may not have been able to do anything because he doesn't have a soul, but the Sword's own evil spirit should have possessed Lynx's empty shell and used it as a host atleast, like it does to nearly everyone else, or it feeds of their inner desires.

I don't believe so.  In Radius' flash back of when he killed Garai, the sword was red.  And it was also "15 years ago", or 1005.

Of course its not going to be the demonic red sword urging people to commit murder. The major corruption took place during the Fall.

But minor corruptions, not enough to warp it, but enough to have a different type of energy (a darker kind though not the massacre style kind as no one was massacred until the Fall) to emanate and possibly corrupt the government.

But there is absolutly no proof of that.

[ShoeMagus]

Well know. And it depends on where the Masamune was from after Frog's death up until the Fall.

If it was in the castle, it is reasonable to assume that there was contact with corrupt men (as I side, like the False Chancellor/Yakra Descendant). It depends really. I can see them not being able to weild it, but having certain of their emotions translating over.

And the rest of the theory stands without the Masamune causing some of the problem. There was still plenty of unsurety. After the merriment of the moment of the Fair and the Moonlight Festival, people had five years to think  and consider the events of 1000 A.D. Plenty of time to question what went on in the government. Whereas the government knows and is confidant, the people would NOT know of why Crono was innocent, or if the King really did try and sell the Rainbow Shell.

[AuraTwilight]

Not if this has ANY bearing on Chronoverse, but since it's a Japanese game, hopefully my native insight might help.

In Japan, we had an old myth that basically states that swords had souls, and if you didn't clean your blade after killing someone, the sword drank the blood and became demonic. (This myth is tapped frequently in Japanese media, like Soul Edge from the Soul Calibur series and Tessaiga from Inuyasha.) This could apply to the Masamune, since it's stained with blood in the posted screenshot. Masa and Mune could've gone to sleep, since their destinies were completed, and with the blood of the fallen, plus the tainted, if not evil, ambitions of the blade's weilder boosted by dreamstone causing it to go demonic.

[Sentenal]

Okay, lets assume that Guardia kept the sword, which has no proof (I believe he returned it to Denadaro).  Porre was still the one that attacked Guardia.

I'll anylize your inital arguement here, so we can have some points to debate here...  Firstly know that I'm dismissing your Dalton ideas as crap.  Dalton theorys crack me up.  Anyway.

Now while the Masamune was in the Frog's possession, Crono's (as the Red knife) and Melechior's, it is regarded as holy and good. Something to stand against evil. Yet it went with Frog back to 600 where he lived to a ripe old age (purely speculation of course Razz ) and the Sword went on. It no doubt was in Guardia's possession.

Why is it no doubt in Guardia's possession?  Its a powerful, holy sword, and I think frog would be responisble enough to return it to where it came from; Denadaro.  Further support comes from the fact that Radius probably killed Garai at Denadaro (see another topic for this), in 1005.  However, he did kill him after the massacre, so it remains to be said.  But regardless, its pure speculation its Guardia one way or another.

Now we have four hundred years. Four hundred years of both good and bad men having access to it. Each successive person imbuing it with their own emotions. But there was regularity. But obviously it would have been exposed to negativity. Masa and Mune would be sleeping, believing Lavos done with and their purpose finished. So they wouldn't regulate the power. All it would have taken was the right evil man to come by (hell maybe Yakra masquerading as the Chancellor) to have his feelings transferred over. Hate, malice, cruelty and greed. Now the Sword has had affect on people using it (as apparent with Karsh/Dario scenario). Could the evil feelings led to some political unrest. So the peaceful kingdom of Guardia wasn't so peaceful?

Okay, for this, lets just assume your right, Guardia has the Masamune.  And lets also assume that for some reason, Masa and Mune aren't doing their job.  People continue getting exposed to it, good and bad.  Now, this brings me to my first point, a few posts back.  The point of the Masamune's corruption.  It was after/maybe during the Fall.  The Masamune was not corrupted prior to the fall.  Its clearly seen in its "Holy" sword form in that scene.  There was no clearly evil man that transfered its feelings and evil emotions to the sword, not until Guardia falls at least.  Therefore, the sword is not evil, and therefore could not make Guardia unnaturally corrupt.

[Paraphrasing the Dalton crap out, Porre invades because they see Guardia as evil and corrupt, and therefore must be overthrown.]

I've already established that the Masamune could not have corrupted Guardia any more than otherwise.  Also, remmber, Porre is not the good guys.  Guardia castle was burned.  Villages in Guardia were burned, and people slaughtered.  And remmber, at the time of Guardia's fall, Crono and Marle were still around.  Crono, married into the Royal family, and hailed as a hero (see Moonlight Parade).  King Guardia was a noble leader, for the most part.  We do not see any corruption in the Guardian government, even after the game has been one, and we are in Keystone 1 timeline, which the fall still took place in.

A lot of this ties Dalton in. But Dalton isn't needed. Motive for a Dalton-less Porre nation? Well like I said, continued influence of a steadily more and more evil Masamune on Guardia and its higher ups (as it would no doubt be kept in the Castle) would cause political unrest leaving things open for a revolt. Who else but disgruntled Guardia Knights joining the first rebellious leader synthesized with Porre's military (though once again that might not have existed.) As The Guardia military always considered itself honorable and just (more emphasized in 600 AD but no doubt carried on) it is plenty of motive to leave a politically unrest and injust Guardia in favor of Porre, who comes out looking golden.

This goes back to assuming Guardia was corrupted, and Porre came to save the day...

Other factors in the political unrest? Well the King being put on trial and the subsequent battle in the courthouse (which will have been spread like fire with rumors abound.) The subsequent unrest of whether the King was guilty or not. Things like Crono's scheduled execution (which anybody knowing Crono would know is sham and would mistrust Guardia, and on the inverse, anybody believing Crono evil questioning Crono's pardon.) And the young Fritz, caught with a band of thieves (Radical Dreamers?).

The King was falsely put on trial, and the charges were dismissed.  And it was a public trial.  Plenty of people in the courtroom.  Also, it would have been well known that an Evil Monster who wanted to take over the kingdom was falsly putting King Guardia on trial.  Crono was pardoned, and people held him as a hero.  See Moonlight parade.

[ShoeMagus]

Okay, lets assume that Guardia kept the sword, which has no proof (I believe he returned it to Denadaro).  Porre was still the one that attacked Guardia.

I'll anylize your inital arguement here, so we can have some points to debate here...  Firstly know that I'm dismissing your Dalton ideas as crap.  Dalton theorys crack me up.  Anyway.

Now while the Masamune was in the Frog's possession, Crono's (as the Red knife) and Melechior's, it is regarded as holy and good. Something to stand against evil. Yet it went with Frog back to 600 where he lived to a ripe old age (purely speculation of course Razz ) and the Sword went on. It no doubt was in Guardia's possession.

Why is it no doubt in Guardia's possession?  Its a powerful, holy sword, and I think frog would be responisble enough to return it to where it came from; Denadaro.  Further support comes from the fact that Radius probably killed Garai at Denadaro (see another topic for this), in 1005.  However, he did kill him after the massacre, so it remains to be said.  But regardless, its pure speculation its Guardia one way or another.

Now we have four hundred years. Four hundred years of both good and bad men having access to it. Each successive person imbuing it with their own emotions. But there was regularity. But obviously it would have been exposed to negativity. Masa and Mune would be sleeping, believing Lavos done with and their purpose finished. So they wouldn't regulate the power. All it would have taken was the right evil man to come by (hell maybe Yakra masquerading as the Chancellor) to have his feelings transferred over. Hate, malice, cruelty and greed. Now the Sword has had affect on people using it (as apparent with Karsh/Dario scenario). Could the evil feelings led to some political unrest. So the peaceful kingdom of Guardia wasn't so peaceful?

Okay, for this, lets just assume your right, Guardia has the Masamune.  And lets also assume that for some reason, Masa and Mune aren't doing their job.  People continue getting exposed to it, good and bad.  Now, this brings me to my first point, a few posts back.  The point of the Masamune's corruption.  It was after/maybe during the Fall.  The Masamune was not corrupted prior to the fall.  Its clearly seen in its "Holy" sword form in that scene.  There was no clearly evil man that transfered its feelings and evil emotions to the sword, not until Guardia falls at least.  Therefore, the sword is not evil, and therefore could not make Guardia unnaturally corrupt.

[Paraphrasing the Dalton crap out, Porre invades because they see Guardia as evil and corrupt, and therefore must be overthrown.]

I've already established that the Masamune could not have corrupted Guardia any more than otherwise.  Also, remmber, Porre is not the good guys.  Guardia castle was burned.  Villages in Guardia were burned, and people slaughtered.  And remmber, at the time of Guardia's fall, Crono and Marle were still around.  Crono, married into the Royal family, and hailed as a hero (see Moonlight Parade).  King Guardia was a noble leader, for the most part.  We do not see any corruption in the Guardian government, even after the game has been one, and we are in Keystone 1 timeline, which the fall still took place in.

A lot of this ties Dalton in. But Dalton isn't needed. Motive for a Dalton-less Porre nation? Well like I said, continued influence of a steadily more and more evil Masamune on Guardia and its higher ups (as it would no doubt be kept in the Castle) would cause political unrest leaving things open for a revolt. Who else but disgruntled Guardia Knights joining the first rebellious leader synthesized with Porre's military (though once again that might not have existed.) As The Guardia military always considered itself honorable and just (more emphasized in 600 AD but no doubt carried on) it is plenty of motive to leave a politically unrest and injust Guardia in favor of Porre, who comes out looking golden.

This goes back to assuming Guardia was corrupted, and Porre came to save the day...

Other factors in the political unrest? Well the King being put on trial and the subsequent battle in the courthouse (which will have been spread like fire with rumors abound.) The subsequent unrest of whether the King was guilty or not. Things like Crono's scheduled execution (which anybody knowing Crono would know is sham and would mistrust Guardia, and on the inverse, anybody believing Crono evil questioning Crono's pardon.) And the young Fritz, caught with a band of thieves (Radical Dreamers?).

The King was falsely put on trial, and the charges were dismissed.  And it was a public trial.  Plenty of people in the courtroom.  Also, it would have been well known that an Evil Monster who wanted to take over the kingdom was falsly putting King Guardia on trial.  Crono was pardoned, and people held him as a hero.  See Moonlight parade.

What proof do you have that Frog returned the Masamune first off? The similarity between the scene in which Garai was killed and Denodoro? Well you realize the exact same scene is also the Divine Dragon Falls? Even the inside of the cave?

Sure there is a similarity in appearence to Denodoro. But like you said, Garai's death happened after the Fall.

Now Frog. He was fiercely loyal to the Kingdom of Guardia and Queen Leene in particular. Also, such a symbol as the Masamune which defeated Magus would no doubt be greatly desired. The King and Queen would keep it (with good intention in mind).

What exactly do you have against Dalton theories? They are a bit of an out there thing. A random element, but with Fate (computer and otherwise ) there are very little random things. I guess it was Random that Kid's pendant resembled Schala's and subsequently, Marle's.

I'm not saying the King was corrupt. And who said the government needs to be corrupt. Bill Clinton was said to be corrupt simply because of his sexual escapades when he helped the economy. George Bush is supposedly corrupt cause of his extreme religious ideas and his personalized war, but some people hail him as one of the best presidents.

The point? A government can appear corrupt without being so.

Masa and Mune weren't doing their job. Or else there wouldn't have been a demonic Masamune, a cursed sword of evil. I guess you forgot how they suddenly woke up after Dario was defeated. I guess you forget how they go "I think we've done something bad."

How do you know? Somethign contributed to Porre's rise to power. An either continually corrupt or seemingly corrupt Guardia. Where exactly are you getting your information of Guardia's government from 1000 to 1005?

Once again, was there a Massacre? I'm under the impression that the Massacre was what warped it into the red looking blade. The sword was seen as it WAS, but that doesn't mean it hadn't had something less then good imbued into it which would translate into the rest of the people in the castle. I mean the power of the Masamune managed to make an entire island demon infested. Could a Masamune that is only slightly corrupted (not enough to change shape yet) not cause some influence? Greed isn't neccessarily evil, but it is still negative.

Porre wasn't the good guys, true. But that doesn't matter. I'm talking about perceptions. They SEE themselves as the good guys. They seem the castle being destroyed as a good thing. And after some of the Massacre someone encounters the Masamune. Someone who so enjoys killing and destruction that they take the Sword and burn the villages and slaughter people.

The official consensus was that Crono was a hero. But are the guards that get the crap kicked out of them by Crono in his jailbreak going to believe that?

People evacuated the court room after Crono broke in and the battle began. Charges were dismissed, but people talk. People losing faith in a government, corrupt or not, can lead to rebellion.

Tell me. Was it public knowledge that Crono defeated Lavos? Did the King go and say "Hey everybody, This kid traveled through time, beat Magus personally, and then joined forces with him to defeat Lavos."

Anybody can join a celebration. But all it takes is a single suggestion for someone to question and that gets the ball rolling.

[Sentenal]

What proof do you have that Frog returned the Masamune first off? The similarity between the scene in which Garai was killed and Denodoro? Well you realize the exact same scene is also the Divine Dragon Falls? Even the inside of the cave?

Sure there is a similarity in appearence to Denodoro. But like you said, Garai's death happened after the Fall.

1.) What proof do you have that he didn't?  I think thats more logical, thats all.  You believe Guardia keeping it is more logical.
2.) Chrono Cross was notorious for reusing models and sprites.  Just as Garai's giant ghost model was reused for his alive, smaller model, Divine Dragon Falls was also probably reused due to its simalarity to Denadaro.  Also, I'll ask you this:  Where were Garai and Radius supposed to be "15 years ago", or in 1005.  "Tearing it up on the mainland."  Zenan.  They were not on El Nido, and therefore could not be Divine Dragon Falls.

What exactly do you have against Dalton theories? They are a bit of an out there thing. A random element, but with Fate (computer and otherwise ) there are very little random things. I guess it was Random that Kid's pendant resembled Schala's and subsequently, Marle's.

Because they are crazy.  Why in God's name would you think Dalton had something to do with it?  I always believed he died.  He got sucked into the Portal the Golem Boss was supposed to come out of.  He did not get magically transported to 1000ad, he does not have power to create gates.

I'm not saying the King was corrupt. And who said the government needs to be corrupt. Bill Clinton was said to be corrupt simply because of his sexual escapades when he helped the economy. George Bush is supposedly corrupt cause of his extreme religious ideas and his personalized war, but some people hail him as one of the best presidents.

Thats what you were implying with the Masamune creating political unrest.

Masa and Mune weren't doing their job. Or else there wouldn't have been a demonic Masamune, a cursed sword of evil. I guess you forgot how they suddenly woke up after Dario was defeated. I guess you forget how they go "I think we've done something bad."

Listen, if you want me to take you seriously, arguing like that is a good way for me to dismiss everything you say.

Whose to say that the extreme shock of the slaughter and murder didn't send them into a "coma", or sleep, or whatever.  There is no evidence one way or another.

How do you know? Somethign contributed to Porre's rise to power. An either continually corrupt or seemingly corrupt Guardia. Where exactly are you getting your information of Guardia's government from 1000 to 1005?

Guardia only EVER seemed corrupt when a fake Chancellor was there.  And the fake Chancellor was defeated every time he was there.  You are assume they were corrupt.

Porre attacking Guardia was most likely a trade dispute.  Most wars are.  Porre is obviously a port city.  It probably lives on the trade between it and truce, with Porre having a monopoly on sea travel with the largest city in the world, due to the ferry.  But at the end of CT, there is talk of a ferry to be built in Medina.  All the sudden, those evil Mystics are challenging their trade monopoly!  Those evil Guardian pigs, making friends with those Mystics trying to steal our trade!  We have a massive forest to the north, lets churn out a war machine and secure our economic future!  Thats much more likely than "They have a sword thats causing unrest, lets invade!"

Once again, was there a Massacre? I'm under the impression that the Massacre was what warped it into the red looking blade. The sword was seen as it WAS, but that doesn't mean it hadn't had something less then good imbued into it which would translate into the rest of the people in the castle. I mean the power of the Masamune managed to make an entire island demon infested. Could a Masamune that is only slightly corrupted (not enough to change shape yet) not cause some influence? Greed isn't neccessarily evil, but it is still negative.

Yes, there was a massacre.  Look at the innocent, dead villagers in the pic I posted, and town burning.  The sword was in its good form.  So at that time, Good energy>Evil energy, as it was in its good form.

The official consensus was that Crono was a hero. But are the guards that get the crap kicked out of them by Crono in his jailbreak going to believe that?

A few guys will be mad cause they got hurt.  Most of the people in the prison were monsters under Yarka anyway.  And its not like it was a big secret that Yarka was impersonating the Chancellor to take over the throne.

People evacuated the court room after Crono broke in and the battle began. Charges were dismissed, but people talk. People losing faith in a government, corrupt or not, can lead to rebellion.

No... Proof of that... happening...  And look again, there were people still in the balconies watching.  The people on the floor ran.

Tell me. Was it public knowledge that Crono defeated Lavos? Did the King go and say "Hey everybody, This kid traveled through time, beat Magus personally, and then joined forces with him to defeat Lavos."

Yes, more or less.

I see most of your theory as making unfounded assumtions.

[AuraTwilight]

Tell me. Was it public knowledge that Crono defeated Lavos? Did the King go and say "Hey everybody, This kid traveled through time, beat Magus personally, and then joined forces with him to defeat Lavos."

Heh. That IS what he said, pretty much.

[Zaperking]

Heh.

I think that the Masamune was never holy. It only went with the intentions of the user. Frog's pure intention was to restore honor (which is a good one, because it didn't cross over the revenge part).

Also, If the Masamune had to be returned, logically it'd be in that cave in the mountains, guarded by the Wind and Masa and Mune. If someone probably tried to take it out, they wouldn't be able to or Masa and Mune might wake up or something. In this case, because Masato said that the cause of the Fall of Guardia was outside of time, it is plausible that that person might have had enough power to weild and use it for their own needs.

BTW, is there a possibility that the Fall of Guardia would have happened even in the 1005AD where Crono and co didn't time travel?

[Sentenal]

I doubt that the fall could have take place in the Lavos timeline, if thats what you mean.

Kato said "Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history".  This could be any number of things, most of which are results of Crono time traveling, although not nessisarily because of him.

[ShoeMagus]

What proof do you have that Frog returned the Masamune first off? The similarity between the scene in which Garai was killed and Denodoro? Well you realize the exact same scene is also the Divine Dragon Falls? Even the inside of the cave?

Sure there is a similarity in appearence to Denodoro. But like you said, Garai's death happened after the Fall.

1.) What proof do you have that he didn't?  I think thats more logical, thats all.  You believe Guardia keeping it is more logical.
2.) Chrono Cross was notorious for reusing models and sprites.  Just as Garai's giant ghost model was reused for his alive, smaller model, Divine Dragon Falls was also probably reused due to its simalarity to Denadaro.  Also, I'll ask you this:  Where were Garai and Radius supposed to be "15 years ago", or in 1005.  "Tearing it up on the mainland."  Zenan.  They were not on El Nido, and therefore could not be Divine Dragon Falls.

What exactly do you have against Dalton theories? They are a bit of an out there thing. A random element, but with Fate (computer and otherwise ) there are very little random things. I guess it was Random that Kid's pendant resembled Schala's and subsequently, Marle's.

Because they are crazy.  Why in God's name would you think Dalton had something to do with it?  I always believed he died.  He got sucked into the Portal the Golem Boss was supposed to come out of.  He did not get magically transported to 1000ad, he does not have power to create gates.

I'm not saying the King was corrupt. And who said the government needs to be corrupt. Bill Clinton was said to be corrupt simply because of his sexual escapades when he helped the economy. George Bush is supposedly corrupt cause of his extreme religious ideas and his personalized war, but some people hail him as one of the best presidents.

Thats what you were implying with the Masamune creating political unrest.

Masa and Mune weren't doing their job. Or else there wouldn't have been a demonic Masamune, a cursed sword of evil. I guess you forgot how they suddenly woke up after Dario was defeated. I guess you forget how they go "I think we've done something bad."

Listen, if you want me to take you seriously, arguing like that is a good way for me to dismiss everything you say.

Whose to say that the extreme shock of the slaughter and murder didn't send them into a "coma", or sleep, or whatever.  There is no evidence one way or another.

How do you know? Somethign contributed to Porre's rise to power. An either continually corrupt or seemingly corrupt Guardia. Where exactly are you getting your information of Guardia's government from 1000 to 1005?

Guardia only EVER seemed corrupt when a fake Chancellor was there.  And the fake Chancellor was defeated every time he was there.  You are assume they were corrupt.

Porre attacking Guardia was most likely a trade dispute.  Most wars are.  Porre is obviously a port city.  It probably lives on the trade between it and truce, with Porre having a monopoly on sea travel with the largest city in the world, due to the ferry.  But at the end of CT, there is talk of a ferry to be built in Medina.  All the sudden, those evil Mystics are challenging their trade monopoly!  Those evil Guardian pigs, making friends with those Mystics trying to steal our trade!  We have a massive forest to the north, lets churn out a war machine and secure our economic future!  Thats much more likely than "They have a sword thats causing unrest, lets invade!"

Once again, was there a Massacre? I'm under the impression that the Massacre was what warped it into the red looking blade. The sword was seen as it WAS, but that doesn't mean it hadn't had something less then good imbued into it which would translate into the rest of the people in the castle. I mean the power of the Masamune managed to make an entire island demon infested. Could a Masamune that is only slightly corrupted (not enough to change shape yet) not cause some influence? Greed isn't neccessarily evil, but it is still negative.

Yes, there was a massacre.  Look at the innocent, dead villagers in the pic I posted, and town burning.  The sword was in its good form.  So at that time, Good energy>Evil energy, as it was in its good form.

The official consensus was that Crono was a hero. But are the guards that get the crap kicked out of them by Crono in his jailbreak going to believe that?

A few guys will be mad cause they got hurt.  Most of the people in the prison were monsters under Yarka anyway.  And its not like it was a big secret that Yarka was impersonating the Chancellor to take over the throne.

People evacuated the court room after Crono broke in and the battle began. Charges were dismissed, but people talk. People losing faith in a government, corrupt or not, can lead to rebellion.

No... Proof of that... happening...  And look again, there were people still in the balconies watching.  The people on the floor ran.

Tell me. Was it public knowledge that Crono defeated Lavos? Did the King go and say "Hey everybody, This kid traveled through time, beat Magus personally, and then joined forces with him to defeat Lavos."

Yes, more or less.

I see most of your theory as making unfounded assumtions.

So they couldn't have tracked it from the Mainland? Yes they were "tearing it up on the mainland." But they couldn't have gotten a lead on the Masamune's whereabouts and tracked it Divine Dragon Falls? My proof? Like I said, its EXACTLY the same as Divine Dragon Falls where Garai dies. Yes I thought at first it was Denadoro when I first saw the scene but then I got there and realized "Hey this is exactly the same place."

And why wouldn't they use the Ghost model for him living? I mean, you'd think THAT would be logical? A ghost looking like the person it once was.

I ask you this, where did the Golem Boss come from? The golems were coming from somewhere? Or was he creating them? Either way, Dalton is irrelevant. Its just an idea. And you never know what forces could have prompted Dalton to be thrown. Isn't that an idea in Chrono series? Powers and forces manipulating events? Maybe the Rise of Porre was something that needed to happen. Perhaps in order to put the Masamune in a specific place. Or for some other reason. I'll think on that one.

Its not "they have a sword thats causing unrest." Its  "they're corrupt." The trade dispute sounds fine. But that doesn't discount my idea. Wars have many reasons.

Also, we don't know what went on between 1000 AD and 1005 AD. We can't see if the Kingdom was corrupt or not, cause we weren't there and none of the history I've read goes into it. It just jumps from 1000 to 1005. Dismissing corruption about a time period we have no knowledge about based on proof of past events doesn't seem like an accurate way of determing things about history. Lots can change in Five years.

Let me rephrase my question on the Massacre. Was there a massacre prior to 1005. I know there was one in 1005. But before then? We don't know. But I think its safe to assume there wasn't. The Massacre is what warped the blade into the "Blood stained sword of evil." The level of negative emotion was enough to do it. But my theory isn't saying that it was a bloodstained sword of evil before 1005.

So everything was happily ever after at the end of the game? Everybody knew what happened and no one questioned? That doesn't seem real to me. Real life is different. Just listen for a second to all the crazy people who think Hitler was a good guy and you'd know what I"m talking about.

My theory isn't unfounded. The Rise of Porre happened for some reason or other. Perhaps many reasons. This is a possibility.

[Sentenal]

So they couldn't have tracked it from the Mainland? Yes they were "tearing it up on the mainland." But they couldn't have gotten a lead on the Masamune's whereabouts and tracked it Divine Dragon Falls? My proof? Like I said, its EXACTLY the same as Divine Dragon Falls where Garai dies. Yes I thought at first it was Denadoro when I first saw the scene but then I got there and realized "Hey this is exactly the same place."

1.) How in Gods name would the Masamune have gotten to El Nido?
2.) How can Radius and Garai fight on the mainland, Zenan, in 1005, yet also have Radius kill Garai in El Nido, when they are fighting on Zenan?

And why wouldn't they use the Ghost model for him living? I mean, you'd think THAT would be logical? A ghost looking like the person it once was.

Why wouldn't they?  Because he is a GIANT GHOST in his ghost model.

I ask you this, where did the Golem Boss come from? The golems were coming from somewhere? Or was he creating them? Either way, Dalton is irrelevant. Its just an idea. And you never know what forces could have prompted Dalton to be thrown. Isn't that an idea in Chrono series? Powers and forces manipulating events? Maybe the Rise of Porre was something that needed to happen. Perhaps in order to put the Masamune in a specific place. Or for some other reason. I'll think on that one.

Golem Boss comes from where ever Golems come from, which is NOT 1000ad.  The idea of CT is that there is no fate, and you can change future.

Its not "they have a sword thats causing unrest." Its "they're corrupt." The trade dispute sounds fine. But that doesn't discount my idea. Wars have many reasons.

I've already explained that they were NOT corrupt!

Also, we don't know what went on between 1000 AD and 1005 AD. We can't see if the Kingdom was corrupt or not, cause we weren't there and none of the history I've read goes into it. It just jumps from 1000 to 1005. Dismissing corruption about a time period we have no knowledge about based on proof of past events doesn't seem like an accurate way of determing things about history. Lots can change in Five years.

We can't see if they were corrupt or not, so why are you assuming a negative, when nothing shown implies that?  What we see in CT implies clear sailing, at least in terms of government management.  Your assuming corruption without anything to ground it on, I'm dismissing it because it was in good hands last we saw, and nothing implied that would change until Guardia fell.

Let me rephrase my question on the Massacre. Was there a massacre prior to 1005. I know there was one in 1005. But before then? We don't know. But I think its safe to assume there wasn't. The Massacre is what warped the blade into the "Blood stained sword of evil." The level of negative emotion was enough to do it. But my theory isn't saying that it was a bloodstained sword of evil before 1005.

Your theory says that the Masamune corrupts people in Guardia enough to cause political unrest that Porre takes advantage of.  And I've proven that it would NOT corrupt people until after the blade itself is corrupted.

So everything was happily ever after at the end of the game? Everybody knew what happened and no one questioned? That doesn't seem real to me. Real life is different. Just listen for a second to all the crazy people who think Hitler was a good guy and you'd know what I"m talking about.

...  You got to be kidding me.  What happens in the game is SERIES CANON, unless disproven!  BEAT THE GAME.  Everyone is happy, Guardia looks to have clear sailing.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can dismiss series canon.