Yet Another Theory on the Rise of Porre

[Zaperking]

Just wana add some stuff in:

1) The Masamune has been shown to have a will of it's own.

2) Garai looks big because he wears big armour. Cyrus looks the same.

3) The blade was probably always corrupt.

4) Fate can still exist in a world where time travel happens. Put it simply, someone wanted them to time travel, and because Fate knows everything, in it's eyes, they were destined to do it the second time around.

[Sentenal]

1) The Masamune has been shown to have a will of it's own.

When its evil.  I don't remmber any instances of that when its good.

2) Garai looks big because he wears big armour. Cyrus looks the same.

Its not just a matter of looking big, its a matter of looking like a GIANT GHOST.

3) The blade was probably always corrupt.

Proof?

4) Fate can still exist in a world where time travel happens. Put it simply, someone wanted them to time travel, and because Fate knows everything, in it's eyes, they were destined to do it the second time around.

Eh?  FATE comes to exist near the end of Keystone 1 timeline.  Thats the one after Lavos is defeated, and after Crono does his changes to history, and after the party returns to their time.  Technially, it only has to be after Lavos is defeated.  FATE was made in the saved timeline.  FATE in the "past" (and El Nido) didn't come about until after the timecrash, which starts Keystone 2, I believe.

[nightmare975]

Eh?  FATE comes to exist near the end of Keystone 1 timeline.  Thats the one after Lavos is defeated, and after Crono does his changes to history, and after the party returns to their time.  Technially, it only has to be after Lavos is defeated.  FATE was made in the saved timeline.  FATE in the "past" (and El Nido) didn't come about until after the timecrash, which starts Keystone 2, I believe.

I think he may be taking about fate as a whole, not the creature.

[Sentenal]

Eh?  FATE comes to exist near the end of Keystone 1 timeline.  Thats the one after Lavos is defeated, and after Crono does his changes to history, and after the party returns to their time.  Technially, it only has to be after Lavos is defeated.  FATE was made in the saved timeline.  FATE in the "past" (and El Nido) didn't come about until after the timecrash, which starts Keystone 2, I believe.

I think he may be taking about fate as a whole, not the creature.

Oh, he still believes that theory?  I thought we proved him wrong..

[AuraTwilight]

...So...why the hell did Zapar bring Fate into this discussion? It has no relevance.

[Naz]

1) The Masamune has been shown to have a will of it's own.

When its evil.  I don't remmber any instances of that when its good.

2) Garai looks big because he wears big armour. Cyrus looks the same.

Its not just a matter of looking big, its a matter of looking like a GIANT GHOST.

3) The blade was probably always corrupt.

Proof?

4) Fate can still exist in a world where time travel happens. Put it simply, someone wanted them to time travel, and because Fate knows everything, in it's eyes, they were destined to do it the second time around.

Eh?  FATE comes to exist near the end of Keystone 1 timeline.  Thats the one after Lavos is defeated, and after Crono does his changes to history, and after the party returns to their time.  Technially, it only has to be after Lavos is defeated.  FATE was made in the saved timeline.  FATE in the "past" (and El Nido) didn't come about until after the timecrash, which starts Keystone 2, I believe.

How about when Masa and Mune challenge Crono and Co. so they can obtain the broken Masamune?

It's probably always been corrupted since it had absorbed a vast amount of Lavos' energy. If you look at Masa and Mune's dialogue from Zeal and their dialogue from Denadoro, their attitude seems to be a bit harsher at Denadoro , as they plainly state that humanity is ignorant. Whereas in Zeal they seem to be wiser and live peacefully with humans like Melchior.

[Zaperking]

...So...why the hell did Zapar bring Fate into this discussion? It has no relevance.

\

Maybe if you realised that your dear friend Sentenal brought it up, then you would not have bothered posting. Anyone who posts anything about Fate will only make me debate about it >.>

Proof

There was probably no one who controlled the sword till Cyrus. And oo looky here, Cyrus died having it, like a curse for controling the Masamune (plus Cyrus is a pansy). Frog's need to restore his honor may have powered up Masa and Mune and made them atleast able to handle the sword. The sword itself seems to work off peoples emotions. But in CC, it works off only the negetive and jealous feelings. In a sence, it does work off your soul. Maybe if Frog's desire had been revenge, then it would have turned into that evil thing too.

Its not just a matter of looking big, its a matter of looking like a GIANT GHOST.

When you first fight Garai, he looks like the sprite in Radius' flash back. But when the sword is possessed or whatever, THEN do we see a big ass Garai sprite who is like 2x larger.

When its evil. I don't remmber any instances of that when its good.

That's because Frog had it and it probably couldn't find any true evil feelings in him, besides his wanting to restore his honor. Maybe aslong as the sword has no owner, it has a will of it's own. CC's Masamune doesn't really have a true owner, it just gets passed around and teleports whereever to cause trouble.

[Sentenal]

How about when Masa and Mune challenge Crono and Co. so they can obtain the broken Masamune?

Masa and Mune are the sword's sprites, its guardians, or protectors, so to speak.  They test those who want to use it.  They don't influence those who use it.

It's probably always been corrupted since it had absorbed a vast amount of Lavos' energy. If you look at Masa and Mune's dialogue from Zeal and their dialogue from Denadoro, their attitude seems to be a bit harsher at Denadoro , as they plainly state that humanity is ignorant. Whereas in Zeal they seem to be wiser and live peacefully with humans like Melchior.

And arguement "its probably something".  Great.  Masa and Mune don't influence Frog to do anything.  It never influenced Cyrus to do anything.  It only did so when it was evil and red.

There was probably no one who controlled the sword till Cyrus. And oo looky here, Cyrus died having it, like a curse for controling the Masamune (plus Cyrus is a pansy). Frog's need to restore his honor may have powered up Masa and Mune and made them atleast able to handle the sword. The sword itself seems to work off peoples emotions. But in CC, it works off only the negetive and jealous feelings. In a sence, it does work off your soul. Maybe if Frog's desire had been revenge, then it would have turned into that evil thing too.

1.) Don't get me started on Cyrus.  Make another thread for that
2.) This is how it works when the Sword is good:  Wielder controls the sword.  This is how it works when the sword is bad:  Sword controls its wielder.

Frog: The Masamune?!
Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it!  That was special!
Masa: Quite.  I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor.  Ahh!  'Tis the true identity of
the Masamune!!  Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes!  'Tis a sad
farewell!  Onward, all!

Its clear here the the weilder exersizes control of the Masamune when its good.  However, when evil, its visa versa.  It wasn't the Masamune's fault that Cyrus died.  It was that he was fighting Magus.  So you are right in the fact that it works off peoples emotions, but its the whielder controlling the sword in good-form, rather than the opposite when its evil.

[Mystik3eb]

I don't agree with the claim that they reused Garai's ghost for his normal person. I think he really was that huge and wickedly armored. I thought it was weird...but maybe it isn't, to him.

[ShoeMagus]

So they couldn't have tracked it from the Mainland? Yes they were "tearing it up on the mainland." But they couldn't have gotten a lead on the Masamune's whereabouts and tracked it Divine Dragon Falls? My proof? Like I said, its EXACTLY the same as Divine Dragon Falls where Garai dies. Yes I thought at first it was Denadoro when I first saw the scene but then I got there and realized "Hey this is exactly the same place."

1.) How in Gods name would the Masamune have gotten to El Nido?
2.) How can Radius and Garai fight on the mainland, Zenan, in 1005, yet also have Radius kill Garai in El Nido, when they are fighting on Zenan?

And why wouldn't they use the Ghost model for him living? I mean, you'd think THAT would be logical? A ghost looking like the person it once was.

Why wouldn't they?  Because he is a GIANT GHOST in his ghost model.

I ask you this, where did the Golem Boss come from? The golems were coming from somewhere? Or was he creating them? Either way, Dalton is irrelevant. Its just an idea. And you never know what forces could have prompted Dalton to be thrown. Isn't that an idea in Chrono series? Powers and forces manipulating events? Maybe the Rise of Porre was something that needed to happen. Perhaps in order to put the Masamune in a specific place. Or for some other reason. I'll think on that one.

Golem Boss comes from where ever Golems come from, which is NOT 1000ad.  The idea of CT is that there is no fate, and you can change future.

Its not "they have a sword thats causing unrest." Its "they're corrupt." The trade dispute sounds fine. But that doesn't discount my idea. Wars have many reasons.

I've already explained that they were NOT corrupt!

Also, we don't know what went on between 1000 AD and 1005 AD. We can't see if the Kingdom was corrupt or not, cause we weren't there and none of the history I've read goes into it. It just jumps from 1000 to 1005. Dismissing corruption about a time period we have no knowledge about based on proof of past events doesn't seem like an accurate way of determing things about history. Lots can change in Five years.

We can't see if they were corrupt or not, so why are you assuming a negative, when nothing shown implies that?  What we see in CT implies clear sailing, at least in terms of government management.  Your assuming corruption without anything to ground it on, I'm dismissing it because it was in good hands last we saw, and nothing implied that would change until Guardia fell.

Let me rephrase my question on the Massacre. Was there a massacre prior to 1005. I know there was one in 1005. But before then? We don't know. But I think its safe to assume there wasn't. The Massacre is what warped the blade into the "Blood stained sword of evil." The level of negative emotion was enough to do it. But my theory isn't saying that it was a bloodstained sword of evil before 1005.

Your theory says that the Masamune corrupts people in Guardia enough to cause political unrest that Porre takes advantage of.  And I've proven that it would NOT corrupt people until after the blade itself is corrupted.

So everything was happily ever after at the end of the game? Everybody knew what happened and no one questioned? That doesn't seem real to me. Real life is different. Just listen for a second to all the crazy people who think Hitler was a good guy and you'd know what I"m talking about.

...  You got to be kidding me.  What happens in the game is SERIES CANON, unless disproven!  BEAT THE GAME.  Everyone is happy, Guardia looks to have clear sailing.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can dismiss series canon.

How in God's name did the Masamune get ANYWHERE? In one of the Dimensions, it was at the Island where in the other Dimension Garai was buried. How did it get there?

Okay, picture this. They fight on Zenan. They've been fighting for awhile. Then they get ahold of evidence that the Masamune may be in El Nido. They track it. They find out just exactly how "in Gods name it got in El Nido" and they find it. I'm sure if they had found hard evidence, General Viper would have been interested. He was a General after all. A man of war.

So wait a minute. Obviously we were supposed to be able to match the Ghost Garai and the Living Garai. We were supposed to know that they were the same person. So why not use the same sprite? No its not the exact thing as the Ghost is bigger.

Consider in CT Cyrus ghost (in the past at his grave) looked like him. Was this them "reusing a model." Certainly. Why? So we could recognize him. In the future its another matter but thats because we weren't really supposed to see Cyrus, the Noble Knight of Guardia. Just a depraved Ghost.

Fate aside, there are forces in CT and CC that are struggling for Dominance. The Entity and Lavos. FATE the computer and the Dragon God. Why would the rise of Porre be important to one or the other? Maybe something to do with the Masamune. After Crono and Co changed the future, a lot of things changed as Lavos tried to counter act the effects and The Entity, or Schala or whoever tried to counter Lavos.

Consider. Why does El Nido exist? Because of Chronopolis. Why does Chronopolis exist? Because it was pulled back in time in an attempt to save Lavos. El Nido was then created after the war with Dinopolis. Also Chronopolis exists because after Crono and Co defeated Lavos and saved the future, Belthasar being thrown at this time, was able to start it. (and we can't forget him having a hand in all of this. His orchestrations for the events in CC.)

But where did the Golems come from? What is the nature exactly, of the Portals Dalton opened. And could their nature be manipulated into that of a Gate? Not by Dalton. He is a fool. Decent at magic, but not exactly the best. But an outside power manipulating and pulling Dalton to 1000 A.D.

Or Hell, sometime before that. 910 A.D. I don't think he would have immediately started trouble. He no doubt had SOME wisdom on Crono and Co at this time. The smart thing to do would have been to lay low. But certain conditions could bring a person out, seeing a ripeness for conquering a Continent. As always though, Dalton is irrelevant.

I'm assuming a negative because Porre rise to power. Whether it was or not, it could have appeared so. And thats all a rebellious people need. A straw on the camel's back. The trade disagreement could've helped with the corrupted look.

Also take a look at an idea. Nazi Germany, to its people, seemed like the best thing since sliced bread. Every German loved his and her country. Why? Cause people were happy and they were strong. Most of the rest of the world saw it as a much corrupted place.

A different perspective can often lead to different conclusions.

Corruption isn't neccessarily something that happens all in one sudden dose. The Masamune doens't have to be any different from this.

[Naz]

How about when Masa and Mune challenge Crono and Co. so they can obtain the broken Masamune?

Masa and Mune are the sword's sprites, its guardians, or protectors, so to speak.  They test those who want to use it.  They don't influence those who use it.

It's probably always been corrupted since it had absorbed a vast amount of Lavos' energy. If you look at Masa and Mune's dialogue from Zeal and their dialogue from Denadoro, their attitude seems to be a bit harsher at Denadoro , as they plainly state that humanity is ignorant. Whereas in Zeal they seem to be wiser and live peacefully with humans like Melchior.

And arguement "its probably something".  Great.  Masa and Mune don't influence Frog to do anything.  It never influenced Cyrus to do anything.  It only did so when it was evil and red.

There was probably no one who controlled the sword till Cyrus. And oo looky here, Cyrus died having it, like a curse for controling the Masamune (plus Cyrus is a pansy). Frog's need to restore his honor may have powered up Masa and Mune and made them atleast able to handle the sword. The sword itself seems to work off peoples emotions. But in CC, it works off only the negetive and jealous feelings. In a sence, it does work off your soul. Maybe if Frog's desire had been revenge, then it would have turned into that evil thing too.

1.) Don't get me started on Cyrus.  Make another thread for that
2.) This is how it works when the Sword is good:  Wielder controls the sword.  This is how it works when the sword is bad:  Sword controls its wielder.

Frog: The Masamune?!
Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it!  That was special!
Masa: Quite.  I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor.  Ahh!  'Tis the true identity of
the Masamune!!  Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes!  'Tis a sad
farewell!  Onward, all!

Its clear here the the weilder exersizes control of the Masamune when its good.  However, when evil, its visa versa.  It wasn't the Masamune's fault that Cyrus died.  It was that he was fighting Magus.  So you are right in the fact that it works off peoples emotions, but its the whielder controlling the sword in good-form, rather than the opposite when its evil.

They may be protecting it, but they're still acting of their own will.

Edit: Sorry, you must have misunderstood, the thing about them challenging Crono was directed at the comment of them not being able to act on their own will.

I never said it was evil, just that Lavos' energy had changed their attitude.

And I'd appreciate a reply without cheek. I havn't done anything to offend.

[Sentenal]

How in God's name did the Masamune get ANYWHERE? In one of the Dimensions, it was at the Island where in the other Dimension Garai was buried. How did it get there?

How the Masamune got to El Nido?  One of the big mysteries as to how.  All we know it was some time between 1005 and 1020, because it was somehow involved with the Fall.  So it could not have been their prior.  So how exactly could the Masamune be used to slaughter many people in Guardia in 1005, and yet still be hidden in the Divine Dragon Falls for Radius and Garai to find, who are also fighting on Zenan?

Okay, picture this. They fight on Zenan. They've been fighting for awhile. Then they get ahold of evidence that the Masamune may be in El Nido. They track it. They find out just exactly how "in Gods name it got in El Nido" and they find it. I'm sure if they had found hard evidence, General Viper would have been interested. He was a General after all. A man of war.

What makes you think that they would be looking for it...

Wait, you know what?  I think I just found some in-game evidence for this:

Radius: I see... so you have met Miss Riddel and Glenn.  Yes, I once wielded a
sword as a proud member of the Acacia Dragoons.  Glenn's father, Garai, the
blacksmith, Zappa and I used to tear up the battlefield.  But that was a good
fifteen years ago... When Garai lost his life on the central continent, I vowed
to become his son's guardian.

But wait, can't the "central continent" refer to the big island in the middle of El Nido?  Nope, later (in the same paragraph) Radius tells us just what he refers to the "central continent" as:

...
Porre is a nation governed by militarism and has brought
on suffering to many people on the central continent of Zenan

Garai was killed at the same place Radius found the Masamune.  And if he was killed on the central continent of Zenan, it would have to be Denadaro.

So wait a minute. Obviously we were supposed to be able to match the Ghost Garai and the Living Garai. We were supposed to know that they were the same person. So why not use the same sprite? No its not the exact thing as the Ghost is bigger.

Consider in CT Cyrus ghost (in the past at his grave) looked like him. Was this them "reusing a model." Certainly. Why? So we could recognize him. In the future its another matter but thats because we weren't really supposed to see Cyrus, the Noble Knight of Guardia. Just a depraved Ghost.

Thats... my... Point...  They reused it because they didn't need to create another model or sprite for it...  Its close enough to reuse models...  Sorry if I sounded rude there, but that was my point from earlyer.  They reused Garai's model, when they could have made a different one.  So why not reuse a model for Denadaro.

Consider. Why does El Nido exist? Because of Chronopolis. Why does Chronopolis exist? Because it was pulled back in time in an attempt to save Lavos. El Nido was then created after the war with Dinopolis. Also Chronopolis exists because after Crono and Co defeated Lavos and saved the future, Belthasar being thrown at this time, was able to start it. (and we can't forget him having a hand in all of this. His orchestrations for the events in CC.)

Keystone 1 timeline:  Lavos has been defeated.  Crono has had his effect on history, and all the party members return to their time.  Time flows to 2400, where Chronopolis is created, and FATE is created.  Note that in this timeline, it had not progressed past the time crash, so El Nido does not exist in Keystone 1.
Keystone 2 timeline:  Just about the same, except that this time, the time crash had happend in the previous timeline, and El Nido does exist.  Obviously, this is the one Chrono Cross takes place in.

My point?  FATE's purpose is to (for the most part) prevent major changes in history to try and insure that Chronopolis and FATE will still be created in the future.  Guardia being peaceful forever in one timeline, yet overthrown and another World Power emerges in another would be a big change, and FATE would have prevented it.  However, it wasn't prevent.  This implies that the Fall of Guardia happend in Keystone 1 (El Nido-less) as well as in Keystone 2.

But where did the Golems come from? What is the nature exactly, of the Portals Dalton opened. And could their nature be manipulated into that of a Gate? Not by Dalton. He is a fool. Decent at magic, but not exactly the best. But an outside power manipulating and pulling Dalton to 1000 A.D.

One of the reasons I laugh at Dalton theories.  Absolutely no proof of that.

I'm assuming a negative because Porre rise to power. Whether it was or not, it could have appeared so. And thats all a rebellious people need. A straw on the camel's back. The trade disagreement could've helped with the corrupted look.

Yes, but with just corruption, its not really a good reason to go to war.  With just a trade disagreement, however, has been a "good" reason in the past for wars.  Regardless of corruption, the trade disagreement is enough, there is no reason to assume corruption when nothing implies it.

Corruption isn't neccessarily something that happens all in one sudden dose. The Masamune doens't have to be any different from this.

We know that it changed forms from its "Boardsword" look to its "Red Evil" look within a year.  1005, during the fall, and 1005, at Garai's death.  Its "Broadsword" in one, and "Evil Red" in another.

They may be protecting it, but they're still acting of their own will.

Edit: Sorry, you must have misunderstood, the thing about them challenging Crono was directed at the comment of them not being able to act on their own will.

I never said it was evil, just that Lavos' energy had changed their attitude.

Ah, thats what you were saying.  I don't believe that Masa and Mune's will is the same as the Masamune's will.  Well, maybe it is.

And sorry if I'm being rude to anyone, I just annoy easy sometimes

[Zaperking]

Keystone 1 timeline:  Lavos has been defeated.  Crono has had his effect on history, and all the party members return to their time.  Time flows to 2400, where Chronopolis is created, and FATE is created.  Note that in this timeline, it had not progressed past the time crash, so El Nido does not exist in Keystone 1.
Keystone 2 timeline:  Just about the same, except that this time, the time crash had happend in the previous timeline, and El Nido does exist.  Obviously, this is the one Chrono Cross takes place in.

My point?  FATE's purpose is to (for the most part) prevent major changes in history to try and insure that Chronopolis and FATE will still be created in the future.  Guardia being peaceful forever in one timeline, yet overthrown and another World Power emerges in another would be a big change, and FATE would have prevented it.  However, it wasn't prevent.  This implies that the Fall of Guardia happend in Keystone 1 (El Nido-less) as well as in Keystone 2.

And sorry if I'm being rude to anyone, I just annoy easy sometimes

Hmm, well since you insisted that changes in time were "instant" in another topic, then when Crono and Co get back to 1000AD, the Time Crash should have happened. Hence, Kid is created and everything leads off from there.

But here is the confusing part. If Crono and co got back to 1000AD before the time crash, then we have a lot of problems here.
1) Did the fall of Porre still happen? (Most likely since they time travelled already). And does that mean that Chronopolis was made because of Porre being in control in the future? If it wasn't, then we'd have to wait till Keystone 2 for it, which would make keystone 2 keystone 3.
2) Kid's release in time... Since Schala was still falling through time, and most likely released Kid at a different time to when she saved Serge (keep in mind that when Kid was released, Schala was attatched to Lavos and when she saved Serge, she was falling through time). In this case, does it mean that Kid can exist in a dead and alive timeline? Basiaclly, if Kid was released in 1006AD without Keystone 2, then how do we have one in Keystone 2? Not to mention that if the change in time wasn't "instant" Schala would have travelled 26,000 years in time or something Oo.
3) We do not know if Lucca would have made an Orphanage. Probably not anyway but then we wouldn't be sure if she'd start on the Mother Brain circuit and other stuff.

And all this other stuff that I'm to lazy to write >.<

[Sentenal]

Hmm, well since you insisted that changes in time were "instant" in another topic, then when Crono and Co get back to 1000AD, the Time Crash should have happened. Hence, Kid is created and everything leads off from there.

That would be true if Crono stayed in the future until 2400 and then time traveled backwards.  However, they went back home from 1999ad, well before the time crash.  Time had no progressed to 2400 yet.

But here is the confusing part. If Crono and co got back to 1000AD before the time crash, then we have a lot of problems here.
1) Did the fall of Porre still happen? (Most likely since they time travelled already). And does that mean that Chronopolis was made because of Porre being in control in the future? If it wasn't, then we'd have to wait till Keystone 2 for it, which would make keystone 2 keystone 3.
2) Kid's release in time... Since Schala was still falling through time, and most likely released Kid at a different time to when she saved Serge (keep in mind that when Kid was released, Schala was attatched to Lavos and when she saved Serge, she was falling through time). In this case, does it mean that Kid can exist in a dead and alive timeline? Basiaclly, if Kid was released in 1006AD without Keystone 2, then how do we have one in Keystone 2? Not to mention that if the change in time wasn't "instant" Schala would have travelled 26,000 years in time or something Oo.
3) We do not know if Lucca would have made an Orphanage. Probably not anyway but then we wouldn't be sure if she'd start on the Mother Brain circuit and other stuff.

1.) Fall of... Porre?  You mean Guardia?  Guardia most likely fell in Keystone 1, because FATE didn't see the need to prevent it in Keystone 2.  So Chronopolis is probably from a timeline where Guardia is defeated.
2.) Not sure about that, Kid and Schala are not my speciality....
3.) We don't know, but its not really that major.

[Chrono'99]

Hmm, well since you insisted that changes in time were "instant" in another topic, then when Crono and Co get back to 1000AD, the Time Crash should have happened. Hence, Kid is created and everything leads off from there.

That would be true if Crono stayed in the future until 2400 and then time traveled backwards.  However, they went back home from 1999ad, well before the time crash.  Time had no progressed to 2400 yet.

I thought they went back home from Lavos' Pocket Dimension?