Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT

[drone]

No, i'm just saying that if they were shot in the face, they'd die.

i hope you realize, there are a number of people that have been shot in the face and survived .. therefore, if this were the case for crono and whomever else, there IS a slim chance they could've withstanded it--and, afterward, possibly faked death? but, my point is: a shot to the face isn't 100% reliable. heck, search on google for "shot in the face and survived", and you'll find quite a few stories.

[Elvis_Maximus]

People can't justify something without looking at the evidence. For your own interest, i'm asking you from everything that you've said about Crono and co being untouchable, superior that they can't be killed etc to justify it with evidence that does not include the battle system, since I've already given enough evidence to why they cannot be immortal.

I've put in bold the parts here that I've never, to my recollection, ever said.



First off, I never said they were untouchable, nor did I say that they were unkillable, and I certainly never said they were immortal.


While, yes; I do use Lavos to justify my point of them being tough to kill, I've never claimed them to be invincible. I choose to believe they are alive, as they managed to defeat something that could destroy the world, I'm not using the battle system to justify that, I'm using the plot to justify it. I just don't think they would've died in the fall of Guardia, I acknowledge that, yes, they can be killed; however I choose to believe that they did not, and I've used evidence (many times in fact) such as Lucca's letter seemingly referring to them in the present tense, etc. To justify my claim. On the other hand, all you have done is throw theories at me and use real life examples (such as getting shot), which clearly don't apply to any form of fiction (see: magic) as justification that they did.

Yes, you're right, Lucca may be dead, but she may not, none of us can say for sure. All you keep arguing is that I say they are unkillable. Guess what Mr. "School-Debating-Team," thats what we call a Straw-Man argument, you're substituting my argument for one that is easily disprovable (i.e that I am "saying" that they're unkillable and/or immortal) and attacking me on that, that isn't a valid argument. If you're going to try and flaunt your debating creditenials, at least use proper techniques and arguments, not this Jr. High stuff.

Masato himself inclined that Crono and Marle perished in the Fall of Guardia, and we already know that Lucca died. It doesn't matter how, the point is that any who believe that Crono and Lucca and Marle are invincible only through comparison to Lavos are clearly going in circles.

Firstly, you mean to say implied I assume, not inclined, unless Masato likes to believe they died, which I suppose is possible. We don't "know" that Lucca died, unless you are somehow privilaged to special knowledge that nobody else has at all. Its sort of implied, but as shown in many other games, implication != fact.

You can't just throw away my own theory when I've asked a question. And then say that i'm being hostile. You're the ones mocking me, when you can't even answer a question.

Yes, I am mocking you a very small amount at this point, but I'm not throwing away your theory. They could've died, I don't deny that, but I'm (in your own words) rebutting your argument by providing evidence and trying to build a case off of that. What did you write, right at the end?

But since you think that didn't happen, and that they're almost omnipotent, you still can't explain why Crono died and Lucca can die. Robo may not have a body, but he was still deleted.

hmm... Oh, and what is this "question" that you refer to, because I'm pretty sure that it was answered, but give it a shot anyway.

Also, I'm not flaming. What kind of insinuation is this? There's a difference between openly congratulating someone on "destryong someones comments" when there is nothing to prove that I myself am wrong and simply trying to rebuttle your argument.

Perhaps that was the wrong word to pick then, how does hostily attacking points that weren't made rather than the actual in game evidence that we've been attempting to provide sound? Not much better I suspect, but its not saying flaming right?

If you want to debate, make it constructive rather than smart ass please, thanks. (and yes, I know that this post is rather smart ass, but I've already stated my arguments earlier in this thread; when you start debating me on actual points I've chosen, then I'll give you a rebuttal on that, theres no point now).

[Zaperking]

I've put in bold the parts here that I've never, to my recollection, ever said.

It's not from you. It's my inference from the belief that Crono and co are alive from almost every believers posts. For one, Gray thinks that they can survive a thermonuclear bomb just because they withstood Lavos' destruction rain from the heavens.

While, yes; I do use Lavos to justify my point of them being tough to kill, I've never claimed them to be invincible. I choose to believe they are alive, as they managed to defeat something that could destroy the world, I'm not using the battle system to justify that, I'm using the plot to justify it. I just don't think they would've died in the fall of Guardia, I acknowledge that, yes, they can be killed; however I choose to believe that they did not, and I've used evidence (many times in fact) such as Lucca's letter seemingly referring to them in the present tense, etc. To justify my claim. On the other hand, all you have done is throw theories at me and use real life examples (such as getting shot), which clearly don't apply to any form of fiction (see: magic) as justification that they did.

It's not the way you claim it, it's the way peolpe imply them to be almost godlike. Just because you know magic, doesn't mean your perfect. It's how you use it. That may be the key that could have helped them withstand the attack, but not even for that long.
Plus, the example was valid since the Porreans had guns. Had they aquired something like a machine gun, and Crono was hit 10 times by stray pulls (let's say in the heart, head, neck, leg, arm, chest, chest, mouth, eye etc.) do you believe that he would survive or simply because he defeated Lavos - it would bounce off?

Firstly, you mean to say implied I assume, not inclined, unless Masato likes to believe they died, which I suppose is possible. We don't "know" that Lucca died, unless you are somehow privilaged to special knowledge that nobody else has at all. Its sort of implied, but as shown in many other games, implication != fact.

Game evidence shows otherwise. Lynx said she was dead, Kid believes and has been doing all of this because she is dead. Lucca on the beach talks to Kid in a form as if the spirit once knew her etc.

Yes, I am mocking you a very small amount at this point, but I'm not throwing away your theory. They could've died, I don't deny that, but I'm (in your own words) rebutting your argument by providing evidence and trying to build a case off of that. What did you write, right at the end?

You know, i'm not on either side of this debate really. I don't know if they died, I don't know which side to believe. The dead one is more overwhelming however.
But i'm only here to debate the unreasonable claims where people just think that because Crono and co survived Lavos, they can withstand an army. That's getting a bit to cocky. We know they're mortal. We know that they can die. Game evidence wise - Crono has died before, Marle was sent to the DBT because she interviened in the past, Magus nearly had all his power drained and weakened by the Masamune and Lucca was stated to have being dead (and theres not a lot to disprove it, except that Home World's Lucca is alive - which I personally believe) and Robo was deleted.

If you want to debate, make it constructive rather than smart ass please, thanks. (and yes, I know that this post is rather smart ass, but I've already stated my arguments earlier in this thread; when you start debating me on actual points I've chosen, then I'll give you a rebuttal on that, theres no point now).

Smart ass? You haven't even seen it on this board. Go back a few pages on each board and look for the real smartass comments from the good old days from other members that I shall not name out.

[Sentenal]

Who says that Crono didn't stay in practice? Plus, the Fall of Guardia happend only 5 years after CT's 1000ad. Really, thats really not a long enough time for Crono to get so out of practice that he would forget all his magic, loose his strength and speed, etc etc. Lessened? Maybe. But then agian, who says that Crono didn't keep his strength up, and keep training, etc etc.

In all fairness to Zapar, Crono does have a kingdom and family to care for. Training probably wasn't a very high priority.

There isn't anything implying that Crono had become King yet, and young nobles usally want to stay in shape to fight for their country.  For an example from another game series, Fire Emblem, just about all the Lords are young nobles, and all are warriors.  The management of the country would fall to the older ones, the defence falls to the younger ones.

[Zaperking]

Who says that Crono didn't stay in practice? Plus, the Fall of Guardia happend only 5 years after CT's 1000ad. Really, thats really not a long enough time for Crono to get so out of practice that he would forget all his magic, loose his strength and speed, etc etc. Lessened? Maybe. But then agian, who says that Crono didn't keep his strength up, and keep training, etc etc.

In all fairness to Zapar, Crono does have a kingdom and family to care for. Training probably wasn't a very high priority.

There isn't anything implying that Crono had become King yet, and young nobles usally want to stay in shape to fight for their country.  For an example from another game series, Fire Emblem, just about all the Lords are young nobles, and all are warriors.  The management of the country would fall to the older ones, the defence falls to the younger ones.

Game wise and character wise, Crono doesn't seem the type of person who'd rely on his magic. I myself would rather think that he'd only (and for all fairness) use his sword against another enemy. They don't seem to  be people who'd take advantage of this gift. As for someone like Frog, he took advantage of the body that he got. Magus can't take advantage of it because he was born with it, and magic is pretty much who he is and his greatest asset.
I really can't imagine Crono going like up into the mountain or somewhere to start casting Luminaire or thunder around. I'd think he'd be more interested in Marle (if you know what I mean ), his kingdom or his image for when he does become king, and to still be a good sword fighter. From what we see of Lucca, she hardly used magic. This is an inference, but since Luccia never saw any, never even heard of Zeal or such, and the children and even Kid never glimsped it, I highly doubt that Lucca constantly used it or maintained it. I think, like the Guru's she was more interested in what she was doing. And what she was doing was making guns, running an orphanage, making a space capsule, getting enlightened in science etc and making the time egg.

Also, 5 years is a lot of time. Crono and co defeated Lavos in way, way way way way way way way less time. I mean, really... 65,000,0000+ years of adventure is done in a minimum of 20 hours of game play. To them, it may have only been a month's adventure. Time wise, 5 years is a lot. If the person who was responsible for the Guardia downfall planned it in the future, then went to the past with new technology, it's very surprising how much can be done and planned and thought of in 5 years time, especially when you have the power of time travel or the ability to be from outside of time at your desposal.

[Sentenal]

Game wise and character wise, Crono doesn't seem the type of person who'd rely on his magic. I myself would rather think that he'd only (and for all fairness) use his sword against another enemy. They don't seem to be people who'd take advantage of this gift. As for someone like Frog, he took advantage of the body that he got. Magus can't take advantage of it because he was born with it, and magic is pretty much who he is and his greatest asset.

I don't think he would be dependant on magic, but he certainly has an ability that he would not squander if it ment he could protect his loved ones.

I really can't imagine Crono going like up into the mountain or somewhere to start casting Luminaire or thunder around. I'd think he'd be more interested in Marle (if you know what I mean  ), his kingdom or his image for when he does become king, and to still be a good sword fighter. From what we see of Lucca, she hardly used magic. This is an inference, but since Luccia never saw any, never even heard of Zeal or such, and the children and even Kid never glimsped it, I highly doubt that Lucca constantly used it or maintained it. I think, like the Guru's she was more interested in what she was doing. And what she was doing was making guns, running an orphanage, making a space capsule, getting enlightened in science etc and making the time egg.

Agian, explain why he would squander an ability like magic that could protect his kingdom and family?

Although of all the characters, Marle and Lucca would be the most likely to have a decline in magical ability, but not Crono, who would have become the defender of Guardia.  Thats not to say that Lucca and Marle would have lost all their magic, but maybe a bit too out of practice to use Flare.

I don't see any reason why less than 5 years would be enough time to forget or loose all those magical abilities.  I havn't ridden a bike in 5 years, but I bet you I can go ride one now.  Now, if it was 15 or 20 years, maybe thats time enough to get excessively rusty.  5 years is NOT alot of time.

[Zaperking]

5 years of donig whatever he was doing was a long time in perspective view. If he was constantly word training, or looking after the kingdom, or going to events to gain favour from his later subjects etc.

Actually, Crono's magic is weaker than the rests. He's not the most intellegent of characters, so that way his magic would be weaker in a way. I'd rather think that someone like Lucca would keep it up, but I guess she didn't.
Or as I said once.. They lost the ability.

[Sentenal]

No offense, Zaper, but 5 years maybe seems like a long time to you because your young.  Things I learned 5 years ago, I can still do today.  For example, I probably havn't played a game of StarCraft since 4 years ago, but the other month I played it with my friends, and still was able to play it nearly as good.  Same with riding a bike.

And I'll say this agian:  Crono's job would be protecting the country.  Nobles keep up their talents.  He would not squander his abilities.

Crono's magic was the most potent in the game.  You remmber Luminare, right?

Lucca would have no reason to keep training and keep her condition in warrior mode.  She raises orphans.  She doesn't fight anymore.  Why would she keep her combat abilities up to par?

[Chrono'99]

Lucca would have no reason to keep training and keep her condition in warrior mode.  She raises orphans.  She doesn't fight anymore.  Why would she keep her combat abilities up to par?

What makes you think that Lucca built her orphanage before the Fall of Guardia?

[Sentenal]

Lucca would have no reason to keep training and keep her condition in warrior mode.  She raises orphans.  She doesn't fight anymore.  Why would she keep her combat abilities up to par?

What makes you think that Lucca built her orphanage before the Fall of Guardia?

Good question.  I guess I assumed it.  Wait, when exactly does Lucca find Kid?  It would probably be around that time.

[AuraTwilight]

Didn't Lucca find Kid like, a year or so after Trigger?

[Zaperking]

Didn't Lucca find Kid like, a year or so after Trigger?

As for Kid's age, she'd have to have been found in 1004AD, a year before the Fall of Guardia.

BTW, Lucca would use her fire magic to melt the iron to make the guns, and other such things. Even though she has an orphanage, do not forget that she still built computer parts, fixed up Gato, made guns, the ice gun, the time egg and worked on stuff with Luccia.

Lucca would be the one who'd use magic the most, and in the case, should have beaten Lynx. She did not. To bad.

As for Crono ,he'd have to practise magic in secret, and would probably be caught one day if he tried. Magic would then be fact and Chronopolis would know. Chronopolis does not know of even the existance of real magic, even Zeal is pure speculation and half of what they know is myth.

[GrayLensman]

Who says that Crono didn't stay in practice? Plus, the Fall of Guardia happend only 5 years after CT's 1000ad. Really, thats really not a long enough time for Crono to get so out of practice that he would forget all his magic, loose his strength and speed, etc etc. Lessened? Maybe. But then agian, who says that Crono didn't keep his strength up, and keep training, etc etc.

In all fairness to Zapar, Crono does have a kingdom and family to care for. Training probably wasn't a very high priority.

There isn't anything implying that Crono had become King yet, and young nobles usally want to stay in shape to fight for their country.  For an example from another game series, Fire Emblem, just about all the Lords are young nobles, and all are warriors.  The management of the country would fall to the older ones, the defence falls to the younger ones.

In 1000 AD, Guardia appeared to be a constitutional monarchy.  The Chancellor was the one with executive power; the King never gave any orders.  The King was also put on trial, meaning he was subject to the Law.  There is also an impartial judge, suggesting a separate judiciary branch of government. This was in stark contrast to the absolute monarchy in 600 AD.

The country was managed by the Chancellor and whatever legislative body existed.  All the royal family would have to do is smile and wave, so I don't think Crono would be too preoccupied.  Crono was also a person who, going from the PSX opening, devoted a significant amount of his time to training even before his adventure.  I think Crono would continue training for his own enjoyment, and in anticipation of further disruptions to the time-line.  Lucca stated in her letter that she feared there would be repercussions of their time travelling.

[Sentenal]

BTW, Lucca would use her fire magic to melt the iron to make the guns, and other such things. Even though she has an orphanage, do not forget that she still built computer parts, fixed up Gato, made guns, the ice gun, the time egg and worked on stuff with Luccia.

Your telling me that she can only make guns with Fire Magic.  

Zaper, Taban seemed pretty good at making weapons without that.

Lucca would be the one who'd use magic the most, and in the case, should have beaten Lynx. She did not. To bad.

No.  She didn't need to fight anymore.  No need for magic anymore.

As for Crono ,he'd have to practise magic in secret, and would probably be caught one day if he tried. Magic would then be fact and Chronopolis would know. Chronopolis does not know of even the existance of real magic, even Zeal is pure speculation and half of what they know is myth.

Thats an absurd arguement.  I guess Crono must have used his magic in secret at the Battle of Zenan Bridge too.  And I guess Magus using Magic in that war was all secret as well.  Chronopolis=Belthasar's knowledge of Magic+Future Technology.

[Chrono'99]

Lucca would have no reason to keep training and keep her condition in warrior mode.  She raises orphans.  She doesn't fight anymore.  Why would she keep her combat abilities up to par?

What makes you think that Lucca built her orphanage before the Fall of Guardia?

Good question.  I guess I assumed it.  Wait, when exactly does Lucca find Kid?  It would probably be around that time.

The game states that Schala created and sent Kid in the time-line because she heard Serge being attacked by a panther-demon (that's in 1,006AD). So one could believe that it would be logical for Kid to arrive in 1,006AD or after. According to Ultimania, Kid was found by Lucca in 1,007AD.