Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT

[Zaperking]

Zaper, in scene where it shows Lavos destroying the world, it shows Lavos blanketing the entire screen with his attack.  Including himself.

Well, since the game scene didn't show a rain of ash and group or a cloud decend or go into the sky, then it's pretty obvious that that scene wasn't modified enough to make the rain go away from him. Come on, if a creature is projecting things away from it, it won't go back on him >.<

[Elvis_Maximus]

Well, since the game scene didn't show a rain of ash and group or a cloud decend or go into the sky, then it's pretty obvious that that scene wasn't modified enough to make the rain go away from him. Come on, if a creature is projecting things away from it, it won't go back on him >.<

Just to be slightly obnoxious, if I spit into the wind on a windy day, I can hit myself. I'm projecting the spit out... hmm.. I suppose its possible then


Besides, the fact that its attack could destroy the entire world is the only important point really, whether it hit itself is completely irrelevent IMO.

[GrayLensman]

But his destruction rains came from the energy of the planet over the 65,000,000 year period. It doesn't have to mean that his defences etc. are god like.

Yes, and Lavos has all of that energy when it fought the time travelers.

[Chrono'99]

Maybe the destruction rain that Lavos used during the Apocalypse was something that corrupted the ecosystem or the planet's living force, instead of being something purely physically destructive (as the attack he uses on Crono's party during the battle would be)?

[Sentenal]

Zaper, in scene where it shows Lavos destroying the world, it shows Lavos blanketing the entire screen with his attack.  Including himself.

Well, since the game scene didn't show a rain of ash and group or a cloud decend or go into the sky, then it's pretty obvious that that scene wasn't modified enough to make the rain go away from him. Come on, if a creature is projecting things away from it, it won't go back on him >.<

In game evidence shows Lavos hitting himself, including the rest of the world.  Come on Zaper, you the one who takes in-game evidence over all else!

[Zaperking]

Zaper, in scene where it shows Lavos destroying the world, it shows Lavos blanketing the entire screen with his attack.  Including himself.

Well, since the game scene didn't show a rain of ash and group or a cloud decend or go into the sky, then it's pretty obvious that that scene wasn't modified enough to make the rain go away from him. Come on, if a creature is projecting things away from it, it won't go back on him >.<

In game evidence shows Lavos hitting himself, including the rest of the world.  Come on Zaper, you the one who takes in-game evidence over all else!

Yeah, but not if Gray is saying that Lavos' impact should have done 10 Trillion Tons of TNT, even though Ioka and Labura and half of the map wasn't wiped out.

Though, truely, it doesn't matter if Lavos hit itself. The Shell is pretty much the strongest point on it's body. And had Crono and co not been wearing armour at the time, they'd probably be hurt pretty bad too.
I always thought that the fight would be all 7 of them somehow doing it, otherwise a canon group would... kind of spoil the point of having 7 different characters.

[Sentenal]

...Zaper, I'm not sure if you know what your talking about.  Lavos's crashing into the Planet brought up the Ice Age.  Thats plenty powerful.

[GrayLensman]

Yeah, but not if Gray is saying that Lavos' impact should have done 10 Trillion Tons of TNT, even though Ioka and Labura and half of the map wasn't wiped out.

Though, truely, it doesn't matter if Lavos hit itself. The Shell is pretty much the strongest point on it's body. And had Crono and co not been wearing armour at the time, they'd probably be hurt pretty bad too.
I always thought that the fight would be all 7 of them somehow doing it, otherwise a canon group would... kind of spoil the point of having 7 different characters.

The estimate of 100 Trillion Tons of TNT for Lavos's impact comes from the reasonable presumption that this event was equivalent to the K-T Impact 65 million years ago.  Lavos's impact would require at least that much energy to cause the catastrophic, worldwide climactic change described in Chrono Trigger.  This is a tremendous explosion, but areas thousands of kilometers away, such as the Ioka Village, would not be significantly affected by the blast.  Given the obvious limitations of the SNES, Chrono Trigger does not depict global wildfires and dust clouds, but the villagers describe the effects of the impact.

This topic was already discussed, here:  Where is Lavos after 1999 AD?.

[Mystik3eb]

I would've much rather had High Res sprites or some such then cutscenes... especially since I had to watch the same cutscene (except for in a few cases) right after it, only it was the ingame one.. *sigh* anyway, lets move on from this topic.

I would've liked CG graphics, or at least art that more closely resembled the original Toriyama art, ala DBZ. It didn't even look like Toriyama art anymore. That was depressing.

[Zaperking]

Yeah, but not if Gray is saying that Lavos' impact should have done 10 Trillion Tons of TNT, even though Ioka and Labura and half of the map wasn't wiped out.

Though, truely, it doesn't matter if Lavos hit itself. The Shell is pretty much the strongest point on it's body. And had Crono and co not been wearing armour at the time, they'd probably be hurt pretty bad too.
I always thought that the fight would be all 7 of them somehow doing it, otherwise a canon group would... kind of spoil the point of having 7 different characters.

The estimate of 100 Trillion Tons of TNT for Lavos's impact comes from the reasonable presumption that this event was equivalent to the K-T Impact 65 million years ago.  Lavos's impact would require at least that much energy to cause the catastrophic, worldwide climactic change described in Chrono Trigger.  This is a tremendous explosion, but areas thousands of kilometers away, such as the Ioka Village, would not be significantly affected by the blast.  Given the obvious limitations of the SNES, Chrono Trigger does not depict global wildfires and dust clouds, but the villagers describe the effects of the impact.

This topic was already discussed, here:  Where is Lavos after 1999 AD?.

Lavos doesn't look exactally 10km in diameter. Probably 1km Oo. Anyway, even if Ioka and Labura were thousands of miles away (I highly doubt it. Those Terodactyls would be hungry as), the "tsunamis" caused by the Earthquake from the impact + the earthquake itself and the bushfires would have wiped out Ioka. This did not happen. It obviously shows that the damage was to a lesser scale and contained. I mean look at the creater, it only destroyed Tryno Lair. So Tryno Lair was probably cushioning.

I think when it comes to Chrono Universe stuff, we can't really use examples from our own world Oo I guess themes and symbolisms work, and obvious details like humans and mortals being there, and the culture. But when it comes to Lavos, the entity and stuff like that. That's another issue XD Even a relation to Lavos and the meteor can be different. Has the Chrono worlds planet been proven to be the exact same of Earth in size or... Oo

[GrayLensman]

Lavos doesn't look exactally 10km in diameter. Probably 1km Oo.  Anyway, even if Ioka and Labura were thousands of miles away (I highly doubt it. Those Terodactyls would be hungry as), the "tsunamis" caused by the Earthquake from the impact + the earthquake itself and the bushfires would have wiped out Ioka. This did not happen. It obviously shows that the damage was to a lesser scale and contained. I mean look at the creater, it only destroyed Tryno Lair. So Tryno Lair was probably cushioning.

I think when it comes to Chrono Universe stuff, we can't really use examples from our own world Oo I guess themes and symbolisms work, and obvious details like humans and mortals being there, and the culture. But when it comes to Lavos, the entity and stuff like that. That's another issue XD Even a relation to Lavos and the meteor can be different. Has the Chrono worlds planet been proven to be the exact same of Earth in size or... Oo

Lavos's exact size isn't important.  The energy released by the impact is determined by the momentum of the object (mass × velocity).  We know the energy of Lavos's impact was at least 100 Trillion Tons of TNT, because of its climatological effects, regardless of it's graphical depiction in Chrono Trigger.

The human settlements certainly appear to be thousands of kilometers away from the Tyrano Fortress.  The world map is obviously not to scale, but we know the world is large due to the distance of the horizon in panorama scenes.  If the world was only a few hundred kilometers in circumference, the horizon would be very close.  As for the Dactyls, a modern albatross can cover over 800 km per day, so I don't think the trip would be too arduous.

Thousands of kilometers away, the Ioka Village would not have been significantly damaged by the blast.  There would be earthquakes which, barring landslides, would not be deadly to people living in huts, but no tsunamis because the impact occurred on land.  Wildfires, dust clouds and global snowball effect are long term threats that the villagers evidently survived through their own perseverance.

[Silvercry]

In 65 million BC, Lavos impacted the surface of the earth at meteoric speed, creating a fireball that covered most of the continent and caused a global climactic change that lasted for millions of years. This explosion is similar to the K-T Meteor impact, which is estimated to have released energy equivalent to 100 trillion Tons of TNT.
 
 The K-T impact vaporized, melted, or ejected over 200 thousand cubic kilometers of the earth's crust, producing a crater 180 kilometers wide and several kilometers deep. The object penetrated 15 kilometers into the earth before being almost completely vaporized.
 
 For comparison, the most powerful hydrogen bomb ever produced had a yield of 50 million Tons of TNT, and the total world nuclear arsenal has a combined yield of approximately 5 billion Tons of TNT. The explosion of Krakatoa, the most violent volcanic eruption in recorded history, released energy equivalent to 200 million Tons of TNT.
 
 These are the facts
 
 1.) Lavos withstood an impact equivalent to 100 trillion Tons of TNT without harm, but Crono was able to hurt it with his sword and magic.
 
 2.) Lavos ruined the surface of the earth in seconds (releasing even more energy than its impact), but Crono could survive its most powerful attacks in a fight to the death.

Ok, I've read this post several times in different threads, and I've bit my tongue every time.  But I have finally had enough.  I'm going to let you in on a little secret:

It doesn’t matter.

It is irrelevant how Crono and company could withstand attacks  from a being that 'ruined the surface of the earth in seconds'.   How powerful a character is, and how much damage he can take and what can kill them is completely at the whim of their creators.  This is why Aeris can be struck by lighting, stomped on/mauled by/set fire to by monsters and live to tell about it with no ill effects, but can't take a single sword thrust.  It's why Anakin Skywalker, a Master of the dark side of the Force and a freaking demon with a lightsaber can be bested by his less trained, less Force-sensitive, and less lightsaber skilled son, Luke.  Its why Rinoa is pretty much useless in every aspect imaginable (save what skills you give her thanks to Junction) but manages to save Squall at the end of FF VIII.  Its why the Great Lucca Ashtear can clear a screen of the most powerful monsters in the game with a single casting of Flare, can smack a foe with her hammer for the nearly enough damage to take out a CC character, but could still be captured (and presumably killed) by Lynx.

How powerful a character is reputed to be means NOTHING when faced with the God of all their universes, known only as THE PLOT.  If THE PLOT decrees that Crono can be killed by a bullet, the die as a result of a  gunshot he shall.  Is Crono and Malre dead?  Don’t know.  Probably not.  But stop using "he killed Lavos so nothing short of another Lavos could kill him!!!!!1111oneoneone" as proof of his continued existence.  It just doesn’t work that way.

[Tonjevic]

Well said.

[GrayLensman]

It is irrelevant how Crono and company could withstand attacks  from a being that 'ruined the surface of the earth in seconds'.   How powerful a character is, and how much damage he can take and what can kill them is completely at the whim of their creators.  This is why Aeris can be struck by lighting, stomped on/mauled by/set fire to by monsters and live to tell about it with no ill effects, but can't take a single sword thrust.  It's why Anakin Skywalker, a Master of the dark side of the Force and a freaking demon with a lightsaber can be bested by his less trained, less Force-sensitive, and less lightsaber skilled son, Luke.  Its why Rinoa is pretty much useless in every aspect imaginable (save what skills you give her thanks to Junction) but manages to save Squall at the end of FF VIII.  Its why the Great Lucca Ashtear can clear a screen of the most powerful monsters in the game with a single casting of Flare, can smack a foe with her hammer for the nearly enough damage to take out a CC character, but could still be captured (and presumably killed) by Lynx.

How powerful a character is reputed to be means NOTHING when faced with the God of all their universes, known only as THE PLOT.  If THE PLOT decrees that Crono can be killed by a bullet, the die as a result of a  gunshot he shall.  Is Crono and Malre dead?  Don’t know.  Probably not.  But stop using "he killed Lavos so nothing short of another Lavos could kill him!!!!!1111oneoneone" as proof of his continued existence.  It just doesn’t work that way.

You're right that the Chrono Series is an artistic work.  It is not a rational universe which can be logically analyzed.  The developers of the games can put whatever they want into the plot.

However, an aesthetic analysis of the story is entirely valid.  By modern literary standards, a story filled with Deus ex Machina would be sub-par.  If a character was cast as an invincible Achilles who battled monsters under the sea and in the heavens, only to be stabbed in the back by a common thug, it would be a plot hole.  I don't think anyone would find this scenario appealing.  Rather, I would promote an interpretation of the story which avoids such pitfalls.

My analysis is an attempt to maintain consistancy with the series.  The plot does not imply that Crono was killed by a bullet or anything else.  Lucca's letter to Kid suggests that the time travelers were very much alive after the Fall of Guardia.  Lynx supposidly kidnapped and murdered Lucca in 2015 AD, but Lynx was hardly an ordinary person, so I don't think it was unreasonable.  However, there is strong evidence that Lavos and the time travelers were extremely powerful entities.  Any claim that Crono would be seriously harmed by an ordinary bullet, barring any supporting evidence, is inconsistent with the story.  I'm not suggesting that the time travelers are invincible, given Lucca's abduction, but a bullet in the back of the head would not kill them.

If Square. released another game in which Crono was shot and killed with no explanation, it would be a huge plot hole, much to the detriment of the series.

[Silvercry]

To that, all I have to say is this:

88. Selective Invulnerability Principle
RPG characters are immune from such mundane hazards as intense heat, freezing cold, or poison gas [or, say, a gunshot]... except when they're suddenly not. Surprise!

141. "Mommy, why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?"
Don't expect battle mechanics to carry over into the "real world."  

Ever read that list?  Good, funny stuff. And like all good comedy, its funny becuse its true. I could email you a copy if you'd like.