Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT

[GrayLensman]

To that, all I have to say is this:

88. Selective Invulnerability Principle
RPG characters are immune from such mundane hazards as intense heat, freezing cold, or poison gas [or, say, a gunshot]... except when they're suddenly not. Surprise!

141. "Mommy, why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?"
Don't expect battle mechanics to carry over into the "real world."  

Ever read that list?  Good, funny stuff. And like all good comedy, its funny becuse its true. I could email you a copy if you'd like.

Yes, I've read that several times in the past.  However, I don't see it's relevance because I have purposefully excluded every aspect of gameplay from my analysis.

While I agree that an author can put whatever he can imagine into a story, that doesn't mean it's going to be good.

[Daggart]

Just a quick not on the "How many people can Crono fight at once and survive" bit.

Saying that Crono can fight 20 people himself may be a bit misleading.

First, you have to consider their power relative to Crono's. We can assume that they aren't level 1 townsfolk. They are likely magic weilding, as use of the elements is typically considered the catalyst to Porre's victory.

Then you have to consider, are they all lining up to be fought one at a time? Or are they attacking at once, possibly using short range, long range, or a combination of both kinds of attacks.

While the battle system demonstrated 3 people taking on the power of Lavos and surviving, that is not the equivilent of taking on 20 people. I think 20 decently leveled people in one battle, would be a bit of a challange for Crono. Imagine a normal Chrono Trigger battle, only with 20 decently leveled magic casting enemies instead of two or three, and with one party member instead of three and think about how much of a pain that would be to play through.

The response I expect to get is that the battle mechanics are for gameplay and therefore cannot be seen as a true representation of how a battle would really turn out. That is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We really don't see anything aside from story that we can use to determine his sucess or failure under such curcomstances. And story seems to point heavily in the direction of the latter.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out, I'm not saying that he died. Just that I don't think the idea of Guardia falling despite its high powered defenders is as hard to swallow as it might seem at first.

[Theicedragon]

I totally agree with Daggart.  We don't know the level of the army that attacked Guardia.  I'm pretty sure that they had their own super powered bad ass on their side. I mean if I heard of a kingdom that has a number of hero's that saved our world from destruction, I would make sure that I had a nice, strong army before I attacked them.  They must have had some way to counter Guardia's Hero's.

[Elvis_Maximus]

Just a quick not on the "How many people can Crono fight at once and survive" bit.

Saying that Crono can fight 20 people himself may be a bit misleading.

First, you have to consider their power relative to Crono's. We can assume that they aren't level 1 townsfolk. They are likely magic weilding, as use of the elements is typically considered the catalyst to Porre's victory.

Then you have to consider, are they all lining up to be fought one at a time? Or are they attacking at once, possibly using short range, long range, or a combination of both kinds of attacks.

While the battle system demonstrated 3 people taking on the power of Lavos and surviving, that is not the equivilent of taking on 20 people. I think 20 decently leveled people in one battle, would be a bit of a challange for Crono. Imagine a normal Chrono Trigger battle, only with 20 decently leveled magic casting enemies instead of two or three, and with one party member instead of three and think about how much of a pain that would be to play through.

The response I expect to get is that the battle mechanics are for gameplay and therefore cannot be seen as a true representation of how a battle would really turn out. That is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We really don't see anything aside from story that we can use to determine his sucess or failure under such curcomstances. And story seems to point heavily in the direction of the latter.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out, I'm not saying that he died. Just that I don't think the idea of Guardia falling despite its high powered defenders is as hard to swallow as it might seem at first.

*sigh* it was just an example, I wasn't looking at specifics. But if you want to, 20 people in metal armor + luminaire (or any other lighting spell that hits everyone really) = 20 dead people (going off the idea that there are no hit points). Crono could obviously slice through metal easily, as he stabs through the dragon tank, so even if that didn't kill them all, he could quickly take them down.


Even if they aren't level 1, say they're level 20 (which wouldn't make sense, as how can a person be level 20?), Antipod 3 + Lighting 2 = dead level 20s.

[SilentMartyr]

Just a quick not on the "How many people can Crono fight at once and survive" bit.

Saying that Crono can fight 20 people himself may be a bit misleading.

First, you have to consider their power relative to Crono's. We can assume that they aren't level 1 townsfolk. They are likely magic weilding, as use of the elements is typically considered the catalyst to Porre's victory.

Then you have to consider, are they all lining up to be fought one at a time? Or are they attacking at once, possibly using short range, long range, or a combination of both kinds of attacks.

While the battle system demonstrated 3 people taking on the power of Lavos and surviving, that is not the equivilent of taking on 20 people. I think 20 decently leveled people in one battle, would be a bit of a challange for Crono. Imagine a normal Chrono Trigger battle, only with 20 decently leveled magic casting enemies instead of two or three, and with one party member instead of three and think about how much of a pain that would be to play through.

The response I expect to get is that the battle mechanics are for gameplay and therefore cannot be seen as a true representation of how a battle would really turn out. That is exactly the point I'm trying to make. We really don't see anything aside from story that we can use to determine his sucess or failure under such curcomstances. And story seems to point heavily in the direction of the latter.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out, I'm not saying that he died. Just that I don't think the idea of Guardia falling despite its high powered defenders is as hard to swallow as it might seem at first.

How would Porre amas an army of magic wielding fighters, when magic users are all but extinct and there is no forseeable way for these people to have potential magic ablities unlocked? And don't throw that outside the flow of time help, because I would find it really hard to believe that Spekkio would travel to 1000 A.D. and unlock an armys worth of magical potential.

[GrayLensman]

EDIT: Just wanted to point out, I'm not saying that he died. Just that I don't think the idea of Guardia falling despite its high powered defenders is as hard to swallow as it might seem at first.

Lucca's letter to Kid refersed to the other time travelers in the present tense, suggesting they were alive and well after the fall of Guradia.  There is nothing to suggest the time travelers were involved in the events following 1005 AD in the first place.

If the developers desired to kill off the original characters, I'm sure they could come up with a plausible scenario, especially given Kato's comment about an external influence on the timeline.

[Mystik3eb]

I have to agree about the Luminaire thing. That spell is so damn powerful, it could probably kill thousands within minutes. And that's including people around level 50. And assuming he's wearing a Gold Stud and has plenty of Ether-type items...he's got 'em easily.

[Zaperking]

I have to agree about the Luminaire thing. That spell is so damn powerful, it could probably kill thousands within minutes. And that's including people around level 50. And assuming he's wearing a Gold Stud and has plenty of Ether-type items...he's got 'em easily.

I kinda agree. Though, it depends. Armour can still block out spells if it had mag def properties in it. And Porre's people looked more than equipped.
The problem is that setting off constant luminaires will tire out someone like Crono. Magus, on the other hand, would not be tired for a long time if he was setting of Dark Matters. Not only is he an arcane master, but well.. stronger too I guess in ways. Just look at it, Crono, Marle/Lucca and Frog had a hard time beating him.

Anyway, about Ethers and such, I don't think that they would exist outside of battles. Like with Phoenix Downs etc, they just don't work outside the battle system. I think it's the same with Life spell, Ethers etc. That way, anyone is practically invincible. Anyway, It also depends on what Level Crono and co were canon wise to see their true power. A bullet to the head still kills.

And as for killing off characters *points at Robo/Prometheius circuit*

[GrayLensman]

A bullet to the head still kills.

What exactly do you base this assumption on?

And as for killing off characters *points at Robo/Prometheius circuit*

Yes, but if the Prometheus Lock really was Robo, it had been reduced to a mere circuit.  If Crono's brain were preserved in a Jar, I wouldn't expect it to be that durable, either.

[Elvis_Maximus]

I kinda agree. Though, it depends. Armour can still block out spells if it had mag def properties in it. And Porre's people looked more than equipped.

Assuming that they didn't magically steal the charged up pendant, or find another way to access lavos' energy, they couldn't have gotten into the dark chests to get the magic resist armors (and since they were created by being sealed in the magic chests so long, which can be inferred by the fact that if you touch a chest in 600 AD, then move forward to 1000 AD and open the same chest, the armor is more powerful).


If they wore the rainbow helms, they probably couldn't get shot in the head...

[Zaperking]

If they wore the rainbow helms, they probably couldn't get shot in the head...

Unless they used sniper rifels and shot them in the face. Or neck etc.

[GrayLensman]

If they wore the rainbow helms, they probably couldn't get shot in the head...

Unless they used sniper rifels and shot them in the face. Or neck etc.

Who is supposed to be doing the shooting and why?  Based on Lucca's letter to Kid, Crono and Marle were alive and well after 1005 AD.  For all we know, they are living quietly somewhere, or even ruling in Guardia Castle.

I'm repeating myself; but, for any being capable of withstanding Lavos's most desperate attacks in a fight to the death, thermonuclear bombs would have the comparable effect of so many snowflakes, let alone rifle bullets.

[Zaperking]

If they wore the rainbow helms, they probably couldn't get shot in the head...

Unless they used sniper rifels and shot them in the face. Or neck etc.

Who is supposed to be doing the shooting and why?  Based on Lucca's letter to Kid, Crono and Marle were alive and well after 1005 AD.  For all we know, they are living quietly somewhere, or even ruling in Guardia Castle.

I'm repeating myself; but, for any being capable of withstanding Lavos's most desperate attacks in a fight to the death, thermonuclear bombs would have the comparable effect of so many snowflakes, let alone rifle bullets.

No, i'm just saying that if they were shot in the face, they'd die. Even the Chrono universe is logical. Crono did die once, thanks to Lavos. and He probably would have died again. Gaspar's think about them gaining energy from everyone that they met is most likely a valid point.

They aren't super people. They are mortals, like everyone else. Do not forget that the battle system is different to the actual plot. The plot is set out by the creators, and if they want Crono and co to defeat Crono and co after how high they set the standards of Lavos' power, then let them defeat him. Outside of the battle the, they would die if a bullet shot them, and they were un aware.

Do you seriously think that a bullet would just bounce off them? Now thats going to far. Lucca being kidnapped, and even being killed is proof that they are not immortal. And you can't just justify that "Lynx is not an ordinary person" means that he can kill Lucca. Lavos is more powerful than Lynx, you do understand? And he is only a demi human, controlled by FATE. That doesn't mean he's like some omega god like person. FATE on the other hand is close enough, as are the Dragon Gods.

[Daggart]

How would Porre amas an army of magic wielding fighters, when magic users are all but extinct and there is no forseeable way for these people to have potential magic ablities unlocked? And don't throw that outside the flow of time help, because I would find it really hard to believe that Spekkio would travel to 1000 A.D. and unlock an armys worth of magical potential.

That was a slip on my part. When I said magic, I ment element.

As for Luminair is powerful, etc. etc., thats the only reason I brought up the battle system. You cant say it would kill thousands in minutes because we've only seen its affect within the confines of a battle engine.

[Mystik3eb]

As for Luminair is powerful, etc. etc., thats the only reason I brought up the battle system. You cant say it would kill thousands in minutes because we've only seen its affect within the confines of a battle engine.

Do you see the damage speading out with more enemies being hit by the spell? I thought not. It does the same damage to each enemy, no matter how many are present. It's only quesiton is range. I think the range is big enough.

And I have to disagree with Zaper about the "only mortal" comment. They're not. They're grown so incredibly strong, which is how they were able to defeat Lavos. That wasn't a freak accident, that was all real, a full-scale assault by both parties. These guys might as well be super human from how hard they've trained themselves and how powerful they've become naturally, as well as with magic to protect them and assist in their offensive.

It's kinda like Neo. Pretend that his rebirth was basically adding 90 levels and all his spells and techniques. Were they super humans at first? No. But they got that way. That's my belief, and it makes perfect sense.