Well then, this certainly is a fun thread to read. I probably will repeat stuff already mentioned, but I have a few qualms with the theory that I don't think were mentioned yet. I will be triple posting, such that it matches the setup DB made for his theory outline.
I’m glad to see you’re enjoying the thread – from the looks of your responses, you enjoyed writing those as well.
DBoruta wrote:
I. The Guru of Reason, His Actions, and His Words
B. The Guru’s Actions
6. Questions arise from his actions:
a. Why did he make the Wings of Time in 2300 A.D.?
I don't really understand this question. he made it in 2300 because thats where he was gated to. It's not like he could pick an era to be sent to.
I was asking why he made the decision to build the Wings of Time when he was in 2300 A.D.
If you built the first time machine known to man, would you leave it on your front porch? I didn't think so. Okay, for some reason you fail to remember this man is the Guru of Reason. Crono, Marle, and Lucca all show up at this guys door. It really isn't that hard to figure out that they are not from that time. Belthasar knows first hand that time travel is possible, and seeing three healthy and vigorous teenagers is not something you come across at all in 2300. He easily could have assumed they knew of some form of time travel, and from there set up the rest based off of speculation. And we all know how well he speculates.
The sealed doors were in place before Crono & co. arrived.
He probably didn't know for sure, but he couldn't have missed the pendant that was undoubtedly hanging from Crono's neck. Even if they never ended up getting to Zeal it was easily possible with thier obvious time traveling abilites.
Again, the action the Guru was taking when Crono & co. arrived was the transfer of his memory to the Nu – everything else was done already because the sealed door is in place.
He didn't leave because he was too weak once he finally completed it, he probably had enough energy to finish the mind transfer into the Nu and that would have about done it. He even says it himself:
So, he had enough energy to build the Epoch, but what about after the Epoch was finished? He did have a chance to use the Epoch. At the point he left the information for the time travelers, he realized that he was beginning to go insane and that he didn’t have long to live. Hence the mention of his being frail and also the reason he transferred his memory to the Nu.
Obviously he studied Lavos in detail, he was at the base of the mountain that Lavos resides over! It would have made less sense if he didn't know so much about the big guy. Also I don't see the relevance that he mentioned most of the time periods (didn't talk about Zeal in there) they went to. It's not like he stated that he knew they went to those said periods, or needed to. He was just giving a historical background of Lavos's actions on the planet up until that point.
1) The fact of the matter is, he didn’t need or have to study Lavos in detail – he could have invested all of his time and energy in escaping the time period he was sent to. Instead, he chose a different path.
2) He said he was from Zeal, so yes he did talk about Zeal.
3) In any case, the old saying “Know thy enemy” comes to mind. What he spoke about was important information.
This easily can be attributed to the fact that the heroes are traveling throughout time. He knows this, because of what I stated earlier about him recognizing that the teens were not from the era.
Again, you’re assuming that all of this was a reaction to his first meeting with Crono & co. when we know that it was not a reaction to them at all.
He did it because he knew that the only chance those teens he saw before had was if they had every available way to master time. He made the door before he met them, so it isn't like he knew that they were going to find him but that he wanted to protect his lifes work. From what you ask? Oh well maybe the human killng crazy robots that were scattered throughout the planet? He left the message in hopes that they would return, simple as that. And plus, he knew from making Epoch that it was possible to make it back to 12,000. How without the Epoch might have been past his thought process but he knew it could be done.
That’s some pretty big hoping. Furthermore, it can be safely said that he had things set up following the sealed door since the sealed door was already in place. What sense would it make to set up a door that is difficult to open when you don’t have everything finished that you want behind it yet?
Try the trial of the century where the King of Guardia is being tried for stealing the Rainbow Shell. Seems like something that would get around the "newswire".
The shell was alleged to be sold off to a merchant. Your point is moot.
He could easily be saying that because it is a priceless heirloom. I doubt he would really want or need the pendant, since it is of little value to him as a swordsmith in a peaceful era.
Wrong. In 1000 A.D. the Guru of Life also dealt in and collected pendants, charms, and other rarities. He had every reason to be interested in the pendant.
This to me makes no sense to assume outside of. Think about it, what would have caused a change in Marle receiving the Pendant? None of the people that were gated from the original timeline would have had any chance of altering where the Pendant ended up. Melchior, Gaspar, and Belthasar were all in eras that make it impossible to change Marle being able to get the Pendant. Janus ended up in the custody of Ozzie and the Mystics. And probably something of such visual beauty (Pendant) was something that was handed down the Guardia line. A family heirloom of sorts. While that is purely specualtion, it isn't very wild of an idea especially since Marle guards the object basically above anything else (before she meets Crono).
The fact of the matter is that the pendant served as the catalyst for the gate at the fairgrounds to either form or open. Either way, this makes it very important to know whether Marle had the pendant in the original timeline.
Okay, here is where I get a tad bit picky. Nowhere is it stated that Lavos has the ability to form a gate. It is my theory that the Entity (planet) made every single gate in the game. If you like I will explain it, but since I have already I'll spare everyone else who has already heard it until I can separate it from this rebuttle. Lavos did make the Pocket Dimension, but that again is not a gate that allows for time travel.
And you are going directly against in-game evidence in making your statements. Lavos opened/created the gigantic gate in Magus’ castle. Lavos sent the Gurus and Janus to the different time periods during the Ocean Palace disaster in Magus’ flashback. Lavos has the power to create space-time distortions, and yes his pocket dimension is even more evidence supporting that, despite your claims.
As far as the claims you are making about the pendant, a lot of the points you are making are either moot (such as the pendant being left behind – Crono had to hold onto it tightly so it wouldn’t be left behind when he left with it, implying it came loose from Marle when she was pulled through the gate) or simply try to refute the evidence I have provided about the pendant with no counter-evidence to support it (while the pendant wasn’t fully charged, it still had the ability to be energized by something like the telepod, and at one time it had been charged by Lavos’ power as well). Furthermore, your diminishment of the telepod’s role is unfounded. The active telepod, along with the pendant, served as catalysts for the gate to open. You cannot get away from this.
You are putting a large amount of emphasis on something that really isn't as big as you are making it out to be. By that time, he obviously knows that they are trying to defeat Lavos. He has been helping them out since they had first entered the EoT, so I don't see why it is such a large suprise that he did it here.
So, if it wasn’t that important, why did he say it? The Guru of Time himself put a lot of emphasis on what he was saying. Furthermore, there is reason why he was helping them out the whole time. He very well could have sent them on their way home, or told them they should return to their own times. He didn’t. This is important.
It is entirely possible that Gaspar could sense their potential. The Zealians did it to them at least once:
There’s a huge difference here. When Crono & co. met the Guru of Time, they were not using magic. When they arrived in Zeal, they were actively using magic. This is comparing apples and oranges. Furthermore, sensing potential and acting on sensing it are two different things. The question as to why he acted the way he acted is not answered under your conclusions.
That bucket is closed because it leads to the destruction of the planet. You don't want to go in that gate unless you really know what you are doing.
This is a question I answered earlier when Sentenal made the same argument. The thing is, 12,000 B.C. was a very dangerous time – the gate to that time period led to right before the Ocean Palace disaster, where Lavos acted in a similar fashion to that of 1999 A.D. 2300 A.D. is a very dangerous time as well – the world is in ruin, Lavos reigns above Death Peak, and he is reproducing. By your reasoning, those times should have been closed off as well. The thing is, they weren’t. This is why I am paying so much attention to this.
I fail to recall when Melchior learns of the groups purpose.
The quote about the pendant at the fair covers the Guru of Life.
As far as your objections to the timelines, the points you make are already answered under my theory. You made the same arguments that Sentenal made earlier in the thread, and my responses to his argument were included in the writing of that part of the theory.
Obviously they knew of the gates, they were the first gated people that we know about!
The gates they were sent through were made by Lavos. Most of the gates that occurred in Chrono Trigger, are likely not to have been.
So your theory is pretty good, but there are a good amount of holes. I look forward to your response.
I’m glad you’ve found my theory an enjoyable read, but despite your efforts there are still only things my theory hinges on: 1) Did Marle have the pendant in the original timeline? 2) Did the pendant create the gate during the 400 Year Reunion, and if it did, what are the capabilities of Dreamstone in its sensitivity to human emotion? Most of what you said were things I had considered and had found were not detrimental to my theory or were things I had anticipated someone trying to use to argue against my theory.
