A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

[Silvercry]

It's not that I "just believe", it's fact.  What you're claiming the discourse that transpired during 500 Year Reunion is in-game evidence for is not what it is in-game evidence for.  It is in-game evidence for the fact that the heroes of CT realized there could be an entity, and it is in-game evidence for the fact that they tried to understand this entity by relating it to a human being.  It is not in-game evidence for any specific detail about the entity.  As far as direct details go about the entity, we are given none except that the entity could have caused the gates and could have caused and/or guided the events that occurred in Chrono Trigger.  

26. Nostradamus Rule
All legends are 100% accurate. All rumors are entirely factual. All prophecies will come true, and not just someday but almost immediately.  

Man, I love this list.  Its got an answer for everything.

[Sentenal]

That list is also irrelavant to analyitical discussions of storyline.

[DBoruta]

The Grand List of Console Role Playing Game Cliches wrote:
26. Nostradamus Rule
All legends are 100% accurate. All rumors are entirely factual. All prophecies will come true, and not just someday but almost immediately.


Man, I love this list. Its got an answer for everything.

Sentenal is right - that list is irrelevant for analytical discussions.  On top of it, the Reunion discussion does not fall under legend, rumor, or prophecy.  It is speculation and discussion.


Since the discussion is getting slightly off-topic, and since it appears there is no more debate appearing on what I have proposed, I have compiled much of what was discussed into an actual theory format that I will post separately on this thread.  The Evidence, Questions, and Conclusions section contains much of what was talked about, and I added in some more things that I recently thought of that, while I don't think would cause any more objections to the theory, would still be of interest to read.  The Objections section covers the most relevant objections, including two of which Sentenal posed.  What's also interesting is that the objections Sentenal raised and the answers I provided lead to more questions for future discussion and theory.

[DBoruta]

Ok, here's the theory so far (It's a little over 6 pages long in MS Word, so I have it spanning three posts since I imagine there's a character limit to a single post):

 Theory:  The Gurus may have been more involved with the events of Chrono Trigger than what is thought by the majority of Chrono series theorists.  How much they could be involved is not directly known, but in-game evidence suggests that the Gurus could have been involved so much to the point that they could have been acting in a manner very similar to that of the “Entity” that Crono & co. eventually thought could have been guiding them and/or causing the events in Chrono Trigger.

Evidence, Resulting Questions, and Conclusions

I.   The Guru of Reason, His Actions, and His Words
A.   What We Know About the Guru of Reason
1.   Resided in the Kingdom of Zeal; it is unknown how deeply he studied Lavos while in Zeal, but it is known that he at least knew of Lavos’ existence and that Lavos was a powerful being.  We also know that the Guru of Reason played a part in the building of the Mammon Machine and the manufacture of Schala’s Pendant (although The Guru of Life has been given most of the credit, in-game evidence states that the Gurus made the pendant).  
2.   While in Zeal, he masterminded the Blackbird and the Ocean Palace, but his greatest achievement, which he never finished while in Zeal, was the Wings of Time.  
3.   Also while in Zeal, he studied the Nu.  While this may not appear to be important, it suggests his interest in ancient beings and also implies he could have studied the origins of such beings.  This is implied by his statement claiming that all life begins and ends with Nu.  
4.   During the Ocean Palace disaster, the Gurus were flung across time.  The Guru of Reason was flung to 2300 A.D.  There it is known that he studied Lavos, finished the creation of the Wings of Time, made a sealed door to protect it, and took actions to inform the travelers who would open the door about his situation and about the Wings of Time.  He also took action to enable one to climb Death Peak, and he also had knowledge of Nornstein Bekkler, a man who could make clones in 1000 A.D.  
B.   The Guru’s Actions
1.   While in the future, we know the Guru of Reason studied Lavos, although we don’t know how full of an extent this study of Lavos went to.  
2.   Also while in 2300 A.D., the Guru of Reason completed the Wings of Time.  What is not known is when he completed it.  By the time Crono & Co. first meet him, it appears he has already completed the Wings of Time due to the sealed door that leads to the Wings of Time being constructed.  
3.   In addition to this, the Guru of Reason was transferring his memory (possibly his mind) into a Nu when Crono & co. meet him.  It also appears he is going insane at that time as well.  
4.   The Guru of Reason not only kept the Wings of Time protected by a door that only Schala’s pendant could open, but he also left information explaining to the travelers who he was, what he knew about Lavos, and how Lavos could ultimately be defeated through use of time travel and the Wings of Time.  
5.   The Guru of Reason also prepared three creations to guide those who would need to climb Death Peak.  
6.   Questions arise from his actions:
a.   Why did he make the Wings of Time in 2300 A.D.?  
b.   Why did he protect it with a sealed door, and then set up a way to make those who would open the door know who he was and what he knew about Lavos?
c.   How did he know someone would come to open the sealed door?
d.   How did he know that someone would eventually need to climb Death Peak?  
e.   Why did he risk going insane and store his memories within a Nu instead of leaving 2300 A.D. through use of his Wings of Time?  
C.   The Guru’s Words
1.   "To those who opened the door... I am… the Guru of Reason. I once lived in the kingdom of Zeal."
a.   This quote is very important because it implies that he had hoped someone would open the door and had planned accordingly. This could imply that he was expecting someone to eventually come with the ability to open the sealed door. For that to happen, they must have been able to recognize how to open the door, as we know that "dynamite won't even budge it".  In addition to all of this, it also appears that he expects those who opened the door to have some knowledge of Zeal.  
2.   “To my surprise, Lavos exists here, and,I suspect, in other periods as well. Aeons ago, Lavos descended from the heavens.  Burrowing deep into the the world's core, he began to consume our planet's energy, and grow stronger.  Lavos disappeared briefly when he was summoned away by a mighty wizard who lived in Guardia, in the year 600. In 1999, Lavos claims this area, and reigns from high atop Death Peak. Lavos continues to replicate...... like a giant parasite, he is consuming our world. Forced to live here, I continued to conduct research on Lavos. But I am growing old.”
a.   This quote gives detail to the extent the Guru of Reason studied Lavos.  It shows that the Guru of Reason studied Lavos in detail, and what is also interesting about this is that Crono & co. have been to every time period he lists except 1999 A.D. on the “Day of Lavos”.  
3.   “So you...YOU, who have opened the door!  I leave things in your hands.  Only by mastering time, itself, do you stand a chance against Lavos.  The odds will be against you...  But you are true heroes.  The world is in your hands.”
a.   This quote has a lot in it.  The Guru of Reason not only charges those who opened the door with the task of defeating Lavos, but he calls them true heroes.  This suggests that it is not on mere hope that the Guru of Reason had carried out his work.  This could be written off as him going insane, but…
4.   “And it's impossible to keep sane in such trying times. So before I lose it completely, I shall safeguard my data, and my ultimate creation...”
a.   This quote shows that he is fully aware of his sanity slipping, and that he was sane when he did complete the Wings of Time and construct the message to those who would eventually open the sealed door.  
b.   So, now having enough information to conclude that the Guru of Reason was mostly sane when he constructed the Wings of Time, the sealed doors, and his message, the questions remain: Why did he do it?  How did he know someone would come?
D.   Taking all of this information into consideration, and also taking into consideration the fact that The Guru of Reason did orchestrate all of the events that transpired in Chrono Cross, it could be safe to say that the Guru of Reason may have been more involved in the flow of events of Chrono Trigger than is popularly thought.  The biggest question to come from this is, however, how involved was the Guru of Reason involved?  Could he have orchestrated the events of Chrono Trigger as well?

[DBoruta]

II.   The Guru of Life & The Pendant
A.   What We Know About the Guru of Life
1.   In Zeal, he was very involved in the manufacture of Schala’s Pendant and the Mammon Machine.  He forged what would become the Masamune in an attempt to destroy the Mammon Machine.
2.   He studied Lavos while he was in Zeal.  The extent of which he studied Lavos is unknown.  
3.   During the Ocean Palace disaster, he was flung across time to 1000 A.D.
4.   After the Sun Stone and Rainbow Shell are recovered, he shows up at Guardia Castle and makes armor, a sword, and other devices from an alloy he creates from them.  How he knew when to show up and how he knew the Rainbow Shell was recovered by Crono & co. for use to make defensive and offensive gear is unknown.    
B.   There is some evidence that suggests the Guru of Life had knowledge of the events that would unfold in Chrono Trigger.  How much knowledge of these events is uncertain, but one quote in particular from the beginning of Chrono Trigger is evidence that implies he may have had knowledge of what was going to happen: "Oh, my! It's...the pendant...! Er, sorry, but I can't buy that! It's...far too special! Keep it safe!"
1.   The biggest question that arises from this is, why would he say this, especially after he showed such interest in buying the pendant?
2.   Furthermore, once he realized this was the pendant he made for Schala, would he have not wanted it more to keep it safe himself and to have it to remember Schala?  
C.   The Pendant
1.   The Pendant’s Structure
a.   The pendant the Gurus made was made of Dreamstone.  
b.   Dreamstone is known to have two qualities:  The first quality being it can hold immense amounts of power, as demonstrated by the pendant’s ability to be charged by Lavos’ power, and this is also demonstrated by the Masamune, which was also made from Dreamstone.  The second quality is that Dreamstone responds to human emotion, as demonstrated by Schala’s communing with the pendant and also by the Masamune responding to Frog’s emotions on two occasions.  
2.   The Pendant’s History
a.   What is known of the pendant is that it was made by the Gurus for Schala in 12000 B.C.  After the Ocean Palace disaster, its whereabouts were unknown until 1000 A.D., when it reappeared in Marle’s possession.  
b.   What is not known is what happened to the pendant after the Ocean Palace disaster in the original timeline, and it is also unknown as to how Marle obtained the pendant.  Furthermore, it is unknown if she actually had the pendant in the original timeline.
c.   After the events of Chrono Trigger, Lucca found Kid after she appeared out of space-time distortion with the pendant.  
3.   The Pendant’s Power
a.   What is known is that the pendant was imbued with the power of Lavos, a being that can distort space and time to the point of opening gates.  
b.   The pendant has demonstrated ability to form gates and other space-time distortions on a few occasions.  
1)   The pendant interacted with the telepod to help create the gate at the fairgrounds at the beginning of Chrono Trigger.  The gate was not visible before this interaction, so it can be concluded from this that the pendant’s interaction with the telepod catalyzed the gate’s formation
2)   On Death Peak, the pendant helped create a gate in conjunction with the Time Egg.  
3)   In Chrono Cross, Kid used the pendant to call Serge across dimensions.
c.  The pendant also was able to open the seals created by Zeal and by the Guru of Reason.  
4.   Questions Arising From this Information
a.   Combining the information from the Guru of Life’s quote along with the knowledge of the pendant’s power, is it possible that the Guru of Life knew the gate would form through power of the pendant?  
b.   Also taking the pendant’s power into consideration, and taking into consideration the words and actions of the Guru of Reason, could it not also be possible that the Guru of Reason had knowledge that the pendant would come into possession of people who would not only travel time, but also oppose Lavos?  
c.   Considering all of this, does the pendant not play a more integral role in the events of Chrono Trigger than originally thought, where the original thought was that the pendant merely served to open the first gate, allow Crono & co. to gain access behind the seals produced by Zeal and the Guru of Reason, and allow the Time Egg to hatch atop Death Peak? In other words, the pendant did play an important role in Chrono Trigger, but did it play an even more important role in the events of Chrono Trigger than what is commonly thought?  

III.   The Guru of Time
A.   What We Know About the Guru of Time
1.   While in Zeal, he studied space-time distortions, time warps, and time itself.  
2.   While in Zeal, he also began work on the Time Egg, although it is unknown as to whether he actually finished his work in Zeal.  
3.   During the Ocean Palace disaster, Lavos sent him to the End of Time.  
4.   From the End of Time, he watched timestreams, as he implied that was all he could do from his vantage point there.  
5.   Somehow, he encountered Spekkio at the End of Time.
6.   Also it is implied that he constructed the End of Time as Crono & co. see it, as there was nothing there when he arrived at the End of Time in the flashback scene at the North Cape.  
B.   The Guru’s Words
1.   Unlike the Guru of Reason, the Guru of Time makes very little clear, yet he is the one who, in person, guides Crono & co. the most.  It is very difficult to tell from his words alone whether or not the Guru of Time had prior knowledge to what was going to happen.
2.   “Disturbances in the space-time continuum have increased recently.  Far too many folks are just popping in here...”
a.   While this indicates that more gates are forming, it also indicates that the Guru of Time had met other time travelers.  Who were they?  
b.   This statement has some importance, as it could lend credibility to the idea that the Guru of Reason may have used the Wings of Time before finally storing it.  In the same respect, however, it may have had nothing to do with it at all.  What is known, however, is that not just anyone can open time gates; a key is needed, such as the pendant or the gate key Lucca made.  
3.   “I fear something is having a powerful effect on the very fabric of time...”
a.   This is an interesting statement, and it is a loaded one.  It is not known who or what the Guru of Time is talking about here, but it could lend credibility to other “Entity” theories.  
b.   Using strictly in-game evidence, however, it is seen that only three powers in Chrono Trigger create space-time disturbances – Lavos (including the activity of the pendant), time distortions resulting from the Gurus’ research (the Wings of Time, the Time Egg), and powerful magic used by Magus to summon Lavos.  
c.   This quote, then, is unclear as to what exactly the Guru of Time was talking about, if he even knew who or what he was talking about.  Because of this, this makes it very unclear as to how involved he could have been in any planning of the events of Chrono Trigger.
4.   “Now, I know you are itching to go ripping back and forth through time, but first you need to return to your era.  And you must hurry.  The longer you remain here, the harder it will be to change that which must be changed...”
a.   What “must be changed” here could be taken to be Lavos’ destruction of the world.  Because he urges Crono & co. to hurry on, this suggests that he could be specifically guiding them along.  In the game, Crono & co. do not mention Lavos to the Guru of Time, but it can be assumed he knows they wish to fight Lavos since he can observe their activities from his vantage point at the End of Time.
5.   “Now it is time for you to access the Gate contained within that bucket!  You fight not just for yourselves, but for all living things...”
a.   Here is a point where it appears the Guru of Time’s true intentions are made known.  He goes from simply being someone who has made himself look like he was merely helping and guiding Crono & co. to something more.  He is telling them they are ready to face Lavos, which is quite interesting.  It appears that this could have been the point he was guiding them toward the whole time, especially considering before this point he had been guiding them toward places and events that would empower them to defeat Lavos.  

C.   The Guru of Time’s Actions & Details About the End of Time
1.   The most interesting action the Guru of Time has performed was not his guiding of Crono & co. by telling them which time period to visit and when, but the fact that he sent them to Spekkio to have their innate magic abilities unlocked.
a.   Why did he do this?  He had just met Crono & co., and at that point his words only indicated he had the impression that they were merely lost in time and were trying to get back home.  
b.   Spekkio tells Crono & co. that they are strong of will and that the Guru of Time saw this in them.  What exactly is being strong of will?  How did the Guru of Time know they were strong of will unless he had been watching them before they had arrived at the End of Time?  
2.   The gate to the “Day of Lavos” is in a bucket instead of a pillar of light.  Furthermore, the Guru of Time initially warns Crono & co. to stay away from the bucket.  While the bucket does lead to Lavos, which is very dangerous, the Guru eventually tells the heroes they are ready to use that bucket, implying that gate could have been set aside with the intent for use at a later time.

[DBoruta]

IV.   Conclusions
A.   About the Gurus in General
1.   Two of the three Gurus had the chance to leave the time periods they were sent to, yet they remained in the time periods Lavos sent them to.  Why?  One possible and logical conclusion is that they chose to remain in the time periods they were sent to.  While this answers one question, it opens another – Why would the Guru of Reason and Guru of Time choose to remain exiled, especially when the Guru of Reason knew he would go insane if he remained in 2300 A.D.?  The evidence about the Guru of Reason shows that he was expecting certain events to happen, and that is why he remained in 2300 A.D.  The evidence about the Guru of Time is not as clear, although it was seen that he did have purpose in remaining at the End of Time in that he guided Crono & co.  
2.   Each of the Gurus had at least some knowledge about what the mission of Crono & co. would be, and each of them did aide Crono & co. in important ways.
3.   Each of the time periods that Crono & co. travel through are important in the relationship between Lavos and the planet, but each time period also holds significance to the Gurus as well.  65,000,000 B.C. is alluded to by the Guru of Reason, 12,000 B.C. is when the Ocean Palace disaster occurred that caused the Gurus to be exiled to different time periods.  In addition to this, much was learned about Lavos during that time period, both by the Gurus of Zeal and by Crono & co.  600 A.D. is mentioned by the Guru of Reason, which means it had some significance to him.  He knew a powerful wizard summoned Lavos during that time period, but whether he knew it was actually Janus is uncertain. The Guru of Life resides in 1000 A.D., and the pendant reappears during this time period.  1999 A.D. is when the “Day of Lavos” takes place.  2300 A.D. is where the Guru of Reason was sent, and it is where he learns that Lavos has destroyed the world and reigns atop Death Peak.  The End of Time is where the Guru of Time was sent.          
B.   About the Guru of Reason
1.   There is a lot of evidence supporting the idea that the Guru of Reason could have been more involved in the events of Chrono Trigger than the game actually shows.  He knew someone would be coming to open the sealed door he made in 2300 A.D., and this leaves an opening for inquiry as to how knew what he knew.  
C.   About the Guru of Life
1.   While it is uncertain as to if the Guru of Life was more involved in the events of Chrono Trigger than what is seen, what can be concluded is that he may have had knowledge of what was going to transpire at the beginning and end of Chrono Trigger.
D.   About the Guru of Time
1.   While it is uncertain as to if the Guru of Time was involved in any further than what is shown in Chrono Trigger, it can be concluded that he did guide Crono & co. toward a point that would empower them to successfully oppose Lavos.  It can also be speculated that he had planned on guiding Crono & co. to that point the whole time.
E.   The Gates
1.   While it is still uncertain where the gates actually came from and what the mechanism of their formation was, it can be concluded that all three of the Gurus had knowledge of the gates being formed and what events would follow their formation.  
2.   It can be speculated that the Gurus were also related to the gates’ creation, although there is not enough information and/or evidence to conclude that they were involved in creating the gates.   Two of the Gurus did find ways to create space-time distortions, which does lend some support to an idea that they could have been involved.

 
Objections and Responses

1. What about the gate which appears during the campfire scene. How did that gate just suddenly form?

Answer: Under this proposed theory, there is a possible answer.  The pendant the Gurus made holds considerable power and demonstrated the power to make gates on two other occassions. The first occassion was the beginnining of the game when a portal opened when the pendant was exposed to another space-time distortion. The other time was on Death Peak when the Time Egg was used with the pendant. It must also be taken into consideration that the pendant was made of dreamstone, as was the Masamune. The Masamune did react to Frog's emotions on two occasions during Chrono Trigger, and during Chrono Cross it was full of negative emotions/energy. This gives credit to the possibility that the pendant too could react to emotion. During the campfire scene, the pendant was in the possession of the heroes, and it was also fully charged with the energy of Lavos, a being which had the power to manipulate space-time. The pendant itself could have reacted to Lucca's emotions creating a temporary gate.

2.The entire discourse that occurred during the Reunion scene disproves any idea that the Entity could be a person or that a person could have planned or help plan the events of Chrono Trigger, as Lavos did not have the impact on any person like it did on the planet and that no person in Chrono Trigger lived throughout the whole planet’s history and was reliving his/her life through the gates.

Answer:  The discourse that occurred during the Reunion scene is not in-game evidence for any detail about the Entity, if there even is one.  It is in-game evidence for the fact that the heroes of CT realized there could be an entity, and it is in-game evidence for the fact that they tried to understand this entity by relating it to a human being. It is not in-game evidence for any specific detail about the entity. As far as direct details go about the entity, we are given none except that the entity could have caused the gates and could have caused and/or guided the events that occurred in Chrono Trigger.  In addition to this, the gates and events of Chrono Trigger could have been tailored in a way that it appeared an “Entity” was reliving its life, but this may not have been the case in reality.  

3.. At the end of Chrono Trigger, Lucca comments that the "Entity" is at rest. This supports the planet-entity theory better, does it not?

Answer: How do we know that Lucca truly knew what she said was true?  After all, the discourse during the Reunion scene was speculation, not fact.  Also, could the Gurus not also have been relieved and at rest that their plan worked?

4.   Why would the Gurus engineer a plan that would involve one of them going insane, another living in isolation, and the third living in isolation and making weapons, a thing which he hates? (Sentenal)

Answer:The question is, why not? What did any of them have to lose if they did actually go through with this? The Guru of Reason would have gone insane in 2300 A.D. even if he didn’t make the Epoch and go through with a plan of this nature. The Guru of Time would have lived in isolation anyway at the End of Time. The Guru of Life would have lived as either a hermit or a blacksmith in 1000 A.D. anyway.

Side Note:  This question does raise an interesting point which leads to questions that could be the cause of future discussion and theory – when exactly did the new timeline start?  How far did the original timeline extend to?

5.   If the Gurus were behind or related to the creation of the gates, how did they create the gate at the beginning of Crono Trigger when none of them were physically present there?  Remember, in the original timeline Crono, Marle, and Lucca never timetraveled from the fairgrounds, so it must have been something other than the Gurus that engineered the gate at the fairgrounds.  If there was someone/something else behind the gate at the fairgrounds, then that same thing should have been behind all the other gates as well. (Sentenal)

Answer:  The basis behind this is that the pendant reacted with the telepod to create the gate.  The pendant was once charged with the power of Lavos, a being that could create gates.  Furthermore, there is evidence indicating that the Guru of Life could have known what the pendant would eventually do.  The problem we run into here, however, is whether or not Marle had the pendant in the original timeline.  Since this can’t be answered, not much can be said about it.  Because of this lack of information, this question cannot be fully answered under this theory.

[Sentenal]

You layed out your theory pretty well.  Just a few things I'd like to point out:

1. What about the gate which appears during the campfire scene. How did that gate just suddenly form?

Answer: Under this proposed theory, there is a possible answer. The pendant the Gurus made holds considerable power and demonstrated the power to make gates on two other occassions. The first occassion was the begging of the game when a portal opened when the pendant was exposed to another space-time distortion. The other time was on Death Peak when the Time Egg was used with the pendant. It must also be taken into consideration that the pendant was made of dreamstone, as was the Masamune. The Masamune did react to Frog's emotions on two occasions during Chrono Trigger, and during Chrono Cross it was full of negative emotions/energy. This gives credit to the possibility that the pendant too could react to emotion. During the campfire scene, the pendant was in the possession of the heroes, and it was also fully charged with the energy of Lavos, a being which had the power to manipulate space-time. The pendant itself could have reacted to Lucca's emotions creating a temporary gate.

The only thing is that Lucca didn't carry the pendant.  The most likely, by a large degree, is that Crono or Marle carried it.  Yet the gate formed for Lucca.

Other questions were already addressed like before, so I won't reopen them.

[Mystik3eb]

The only thing is that Lucca didn't carry the pendant.  The most likely, by a large degree, is that Crono or Marle carried it.  Yet the gate formed for Lucca.

I don't think that's an issue. Where is there written in stone tablets that only the person physically holding the pendent may somehow channel their emotions into it to make its powers come to life? When looking at events in the games involving usage of the Pendant and Masamune, there is still nothing that directly states this.

Also, I was thinking about the argument about all the time periods being "significant" to just about anyone who could possibly be the Entity, including the planet.

Ok then. What's so important about 2300 AD to the Planet, or anyone else for that matter? Geno Dome? Ahhhhhh, I don't think so. Maybe. But I don't think so. It seems they were looking for Prometheus as a key part of their extermination of humans. Whether they found him or not in the original timeline is unknown, but this stuff just doesn't seem important enough. Let the robots trap all the humans and create the Matrix, what does the planet care? Lavos has already stripped it of most its life and beauty.

Oh and Silvercry, that particular point you quoted is actually not 100% accurate. =)

[Zaperking]

Very nice work.

My turn.

1) I don't think that Belthasar safeguarded his memories. I think that he was actually working on transfering his mind to the Nu. He would then hand over the Epoch in good time, and then finally when everything was complete - would want to sleep forever (as you press the button on the Nu).

2) I don't think that the pendant reacts with emotions. Schala uses her own energy to channal the power of the pendant on things. Queen Zeal possibly wants Schala to use the pendant so she doesn't use her innate magic. This way Queen Zeal can control it. The Guru's did say that Schala's power is greater than her mothers.
On another note, it is hinted and quite obvious that Schala is the arbiter, and that she was communing with the flame in the Mammon Machine.

3) The Masamune's power to channal emotions isn't because of the dreamstone, atleast it's debateable. Masa and Mune were awake when Frog wielded it. I think that they unleashed more energy from the sword with Frog's emotions, but not the actual sword. Heck, who knows. Maybe because they were awake in the sword, they kept it from being evil all along thanks to Lavos' power.

4) I don't really think that Schala's pendant has enough power to produce the gate. Since the reunion is kind of a sidequest, maybe the gate only appeared for it or something. It doesn't really matter.

5) It was Masa and Mune and Doreen who had enough power to create a gate. They caused Serge to go back to the Orphanage scene. You could either use the Mastermune or the time egg.

6) Since Belthasar orchistrated CC in 2300AD in the good timeline, I think that the gloomy conditions of the Lavos 2300AD timeline is what kind of stopped him from completing a total plan. That's maybe why he went insane - making a plan. I think he has some foresight.

7) The pendant seems to have a soul. That is implied with how the pendant followed Marle after the Ocean Palace, and landed on her shoulder when she was washed up, as if it was guarding her.

The Planet also seems to have power over time. I myself do not count it as the true entitiy. But because it's such a dumb f*** when it comes to messing with time, I think it's interferance caused a lot of what Gasapr was talking about. Maybe by Gaspar saying that more people were comnig through - that could mean that Crono and co from other times where they failed the quest and such may have come through.

9) Though, kind of what Gaspar says is contradictory. Do we really need to save the planet? The planet is selfish for what it's causing. As Lucca said, them killing Lavos caused people who were born because of him to not be born. Their actions split off into Dinopolis being pulled in because of the saved future and Chronopolis. The planet then used Dinopolis to it's advantage. But in pulling Dinopolis in, dragonians died which should have lived peacefully in their dimension.

Good work aswell

Do you think that the Dragonians could do anything against Lavos when they were unable to defeat Chronopolis?

Chronopolis had the flame, and Lavos did not. Chronopolis also had technology and weapons and fighterjets etc. Maybe because FATE sealed the Dragon God first, that kind of made the morale of the dragonians go away. Basically, no wish for the Dragon Gods to be sealed means that the Dragon God would have pwned Chronopolis. Did you see what it did to it once it was unleashed?
Same with Terra Tower. Without Chronopolis' interference, Dinopolis could launch a full scale assult on Lavos. Like a whole empire of Dragonians with elements and a Dragon God etc. versing Lavos is > than Crono and co. They could probably seal Lavos itself, but did not get the chance. The Dragonians know that the planet hates the humans, and I take that as game evidence. The Dragonians in Fort Dragonia actually wrote it down, and they had no real reason to if it was from their own view. I mean look at it, the Dragonians and Humans kind of made up their differences, but that doesn't mean the planet is happy.

[Mystik3eb]

1) I don't think that Belthasar safeguarded his memories. I think that he was actually working on transfering his mind to the Nu. He would then hand over the Epoch in good time, and then finally when everything was complete - would want to sleep forever (as you press the button on the Nu).

...uh...I think that's basically the same thing. lol

2) I don't think that the pendant reacts with emotions. Schala uses her own energy to channal the power of the pendant on things. Queen Zeal possibly wants Schala to use the pendant so she doesn't use her innate magic. This way Queen Zeal can control it. The Guru's did say that Schala's power is greater than her mothers.
On another note, it is hinted and quite obvious that Schala is the arbiter, and that she was communing with the flame in the Mammon Machine.

Again going under the assumption that the FF is inside the MM.

3) The Masamune's power to channal emotions isn't because of the dreamstone, atleast it's debateable. Masa and Mune were awake when Frog wielded it. I think that they unleashed more energy from the sword with Frog's emotions, but not the actual sword. Heck, who knows. Maybe because they were awake in the sword, they kept it from being evil all along thanks to Lavos' power.

Or, their being "asleep", simply was their way of saying they had been influenced by evil and had changed from what they were before.

4) I don't really think that Schala's pendant has enough power to produce the gate. Since the reunion is kind of a sidequest, maybe the gate only appeared for it or something. It doesn't really matter.

It does matter. It's part of the Entity scene. If you think anything to do with the Entity is important, than so is this. If not, than why are you posting in this thread? =)

5) It was Masa and Mune and Doreen who had enough power to create a gate. They caused Serge to go back to the Orphanage scene. You could either use the Mastermune or the time egg.

That doesn't exclude the Dreamstone possibly being able to make gates, since it still has a direct influence on other things to create time/space travel. All this point does is add to the list of things/people that can travel through time.

Though really, look at the format in which they went back. It wasn't a gate really, it was more of being sent back through consciousness, which is why they disappeared over time. That ain't normal time travel. Seems the three of them still aren't as powerful as the Dreamstone's capabilities.

7) The pendant seems to have a soul. That is implied with how the pendant followed Marle after the Ocean Palace, and landed on her shoulder when she was washed up, as if it was guarding her.

Interesting point. Except that it doesn't necessarily have to do with "a" soul so much as "Crono's" soul. I think Crono's soul had that last purpose before leaving. Well...that's my answer, anyway.

9) Though, kind of what Gaspar says is contradictory. Do we really need to save the planet? The planet is selfish for what it's causing. As Lucca said, them killing Lavos caused people who were born because of him to not be born. Their actions split off into Dinopolis being pulled in because of the saved future and Chronopolis. The planet then used Dinopolis to it's advantage. But in pulling Dinopolis in, dragonians died which should have lived peacefully in their dimension.

Please, he's not saying "Let's save the Planet because it's a nice planet!" He's saying "Let's save the Planet, aka all the people on it, and a planet physically capable of hosting the human race."

Plus I don't really buy the stuff Lucca said about killing Lavos not letting some people be born. It's true, possibly everyone born after that event will never be born...but would they really want to? To live a life of cold, hunger, pain and depression everyday, with absolutely no hope? Yeah, some life. Most would rather die. To those who wouldn't...well, they didn't know what was good for them.

Chronopolis had the flame, and Lavos did not.

Er...what? It's LAVOS! The FF came from Lavos! His whole fricken shell is made up of "Frozen Flames"!

And I find all this talk of Dragonians rather silly. We know little to nothing about them. They could've been Reptites, for all we know, and Reptites are rather easy to kill. *shrug*

[Sentenal]

I don't think that's an issue. Where is there written in stone tablets that only the person physically holding the pendent may somehow channel their emotions into it to make its powers come to life? When looking at events in the games involving usage of the Pendant and Masamune, there is still nothing that directly states this.

Do you realize how insane of a position to take that is?  Lucca doesn't have the Pendant.  Yet somehow she transmits her emotions into something that shes not in possession of.  Since when does it work like that?  But okay, lets say that happens.  The pendant would presumably create the gate.  Why would it not create the gate next to the pendant?  I mean after all, its the pendant creating the gate, not Lucca's emotions.

Ok then. What's so important about 2300 AD to the Planet, or anyone else for that matter? Geno Dome? Ahhhhhh, I don't think so. Maybe. But I don't think so. It seems they were looking for Prometheus as a key part of their extermination of humans. Whether they found him or not in the original timeline is unknown, but this stuff just doesn't seem important enough. Let the robots trap all the humans and create the Matrix, what does the planet care? Lavos has already stripped it of most its life and beauty.

It was nessisary to show Crono and co the destroyed Future to start their quest.  This is also the time period where they would meet Robo.  Also, this would be the time period where they would get the Epoch, and meet Belthasar.  Plenty of significance.

2) I don't think that the pendant reacts with emotions. Schala uses her own energy to channal the power of the pendant on things. Queen Zeal possibly wants Schala to use the pendant so she doesn't use her innate magic. This way Queen Zeal can control it. The Guru's did say that Schala's power is greater than her mothers.
On another note, it is hinted and quite obvious that Schala is the arbiter, and that she was communing with the flame in the Mammon Machine.

3) The Masamune's power to channal emotions isn't because of the dreamstone, atleast it's debateable. Masa and Mune were awake when Frog wielded it. I think that they unleashed more energy from the sword with Frog's emotions, but not the actual sword. Heck, who knows. Maybe because they were awake in the sword, they kept it from being evil all along thanks to Lavos' power.

#1- We don't know that the Frozen Flame was in the Mamon Machine, therefore we can't call Schala the Arbiter.
#2- Masa and Mune ARE the Masamune.  The Masamune reacts to emotion.  Its fact that a property of dreamstone is reacting to emotion.

[DBoruta]

Wow, quick responses!

The only thing is that Lucca didn't carry the pendant. The most likely, by a large degree, is that Crono or Marle carried it. Yet the gate formed for Lucca.

You're right - we don't know for sure if Lucca had the pendant physically in her possession, however, it was in the presence of the party.  What I am unsure of is how sensitive dreamstone is to human emotion.  We can say that dreamstone responds to human emotion upon physical contact due to the Guru of Reason's theories on dreamstone and the discovery or origin of human emotion.  There is no evidence, however, as to whether or not dreamstone is extremely sensitive to human emotion.  Under the theory I've put together, however, this is the only possible explanation I can offer without delving into other theories about the Entity.  I'll give this some more thought and try and come up with either something more to add on to express the uncertainty of the dreamstone's sensitivity or to provide a better explanation under the theory I'm proposing.  

1) I don't think that Belthasar safeguarded his memories. I think that he was actually working on transfering his mind to the Nu. He would then hand over the Epoch in good time, and then finally when everything was complete - would want to sleep forever (as you press the button on the Nu).

Yeah, that's what I was talking about when I said transferring his memory to the Nu - I'll reword that.  

2) I don't think that the pendant reacts with emotions. Schala uses her own energy to channal the power of the pendant on things. Queen Zeal possibly wants Schala to use the pendant so she doesn't use her innate magic. This way Queen Zeal can control it. The Guru's did say that Schala's power is greater than her mothers.
On another note, it is hinted and quite obvious that Schala is the arbiter, and that she was communing with the flame in the Mammon Machine.

A couple things - first, see above in my response to Sentenal; it lists more evidence that supports the idea that dreamstone reacts to emotion.  Second, while in Radical Dreamers the Frozen Flame is said to have been a treasure of Zeal, and after seeing that I have thought that was how the Zeal culture learned of Lavos, I'm not inclined to believe that the Mammon Machine housed the Frozen Flame.  By that reasoning, the Flame would have been lost for eternity as it would have ended up in the Black Omen, meaning Chrono Cross never would have happened.  

5) It was Masa and Mune and Doreen who had enough power to create a gate. They caused Serge to go back to the Orphanage scene. You could either use the Mastermune or the time egg.

I think you're responding to my comment about Kid calling Serge across dimensions in Chrono Cross.   If you are, what I was talking about wasn't where Serge "goes back" to the orphanage at Lucca's house.  What I was talking about was the very beginning of Chrono Cross, where Serge initially gets pulled across to Another World.  

6) Since Belthasar orchistrated CC in 2300AD in the good timeline, I think that the gloomy conditions of the Lavos 2300AD timeline is what kind of stopped him from completing a total plan. That's maybe why he went insane - making a plan. I think he has some foresight.

So you're saying that the creation and safeguarding of the Wings of Time, all the preparation he went through to inform who would open the sealed door about who he was, what he knew about Lavos, how to ultimately defeat Lavos, and about his Wings of Time, creating the ability to climb Death Peak, as well his transferring of his mind to the Nu, was all just foresight?  

7) The pendant seems to have a soul. That is implied with how the pendant followed Marle after the Ocean Palace, and landed on her shoulder when she was washed up, as if it was guarding her.

Interesting thought.  I was never quite sure what to make of it, and if I were to attempt to explain it, I would have tried to relate it to the dreamstone's sensitivity to human emotion.  Now, whose emotion is questionable - it possibly could have been Crono's, Schala's or Marle's (assuming Marle was at the Ocean Palace when everything happened).  

The Planet also seems to have power over time. I myself do not count it as the true entitiy. But because it's such a dumb f*** when it comes to messing with time, I think it's interferance caused a lot of what Gasapr was talking about.

I'm not so sure about this.  Even though the planet does react in Chrono Cross by pulling Dinopolis through in an attempt to balance things out, I'm not sure if it's because the planet has a mind or soul of its own, or if it's just obeying the physics of the Chrono universe.   If I subsrcibed to the Planet-Entity theory, then I probably would be in agreement with you.

Or, their being "asleep", simply was their way of saying they had been influenced by evil and had changed from what they were before.

Ok, here's the quote from Chrono Cross:

Radius:
I no longer sense the slightest
bit of malice from the Masamune.
There is no more fear of
succumbing to its enmity.

Mune:
Huaaah...
You awake, Masa?

Masa:
Yeah...
But looking back...
I think we've done
something terrible.

Mune:
Heh heh...
No one will know if
we don't tell.

Doreen:
HEY!
What were you
two up to!?

Masa:
Yikes!
It's Doreen!

Mune:
N-Nothing!
We don't remember a thing!

Doreen:
Hmmm, I see...
Well, just to make sure
you're not up to any mischief...
I'm coming along.

While this could be taken the way you propose, another interpretation could be that Masa and Mune were subdued and made to lie dormant within the sword, meaning they had no control over the sword during the time they were forced into dormancy.

[Zaperking]

Again going under the assumption that the FF is inside the MM.

Though, it is.

Or, their being "asleep", simply was their way of saying they had been influenced by evil and had changed from what they were before.

But they were not conscious of it.

That doesn't exclude the Dreamstone possibly being able to make gates, since it still has a direct influence on other things to create time/space travel. All this point does is add to the list of things/people that can travel through time.

Dreamstone is simply a catalyst or a holder of energy. That energy can be channeled to produce such things.

Though really, look at the format in which they went back. It wasn't a gate really, it was more of being sent back through consciousness, which is why they disappeared over time. That ain't normal time travel. Seems the three of them still aren't as powerful as the Dreamstone's capabilities.

Dreamstone only absorbs and amplifies energy. It doesn't teleport people around or send them through time, without them using the dreamstones energy. The only other exception was the Telepod incident. Maybe the energy in the pendant was beckoned, like how Lavos pulled back the flame. Who knows.

Er...what? It's LAVOS! The FF came from Lavos! His whole fricken shell is made up of "Frozen Flames"!

His shell is not made up of Frozen Flames... It was a single splinter, maybe purposly or accidently splintered off. If His shell was made of Frozen Flames, which are independant to absorbing their own energy, then he'd be way stronger than the planet and would not even need it >.>

And I find all this talk of Dragonians rather silly. We know little to nothing about them. They could've been Reptites, for all we know, and Reptites are rather easy to kill. *shrug*

The Dragonians are the evolved version of the Reptities, it's game evidence. Why is it so silly? These people invented the elements, created a Dragon God etc. They depicted the whole story, that the planet communed with them.

#1- We don't know that the Frozen Flame was in the Mamon Machine, therefore we can't call Schala the Arbiter.

RD says it was. Since RD's history is the same as CT's, it's most likely. Evidence, such as Belthasar knowing about it kind of shows it. Schala may or may not be the arbiter (even thought she did talk through it in CC).  But it is most likely there.

#2- Masa and Mune ARE the Masamune. The Masamune reacts to emotion. Its fact that a property of dreamstone is reacting to emotion

The Masamune reacts to emotion, not dreamstone itself. Itself, it only abrosbs and amplifies power. When it has energy in it from a source (Lavos' for one turned the knife into a sword with Masa and Mune), then does it actually do stuff with peoples emotion. I doubt the pendant reacts to emotion, but the sword definetely does.

A couple things - first, see above in my response to Sentenal; it lists more evidence that supports the idea that dreamstone reacts to emotion. Second, while in Radical Dreamers the Frozen Flame is said to have been a treasure of Zeal, and after seeing that I have thought that was how the Zeal culture learned of Lavos, I'm not inclined to believe that the Mammon Machine housed the Frozen Flame. By that reasoning, the Flame would have been lost for eternity as it would have ended up in the Black Omen, meaning Chrono Cross never would have happened.

But RD's history is CT's history. It only splits off in the future pretty much. It's basically in RD that Schala used the power of the flame to reincarnate herself. Though, this may be in a timeline without Crono's interference. Either way, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't. But the flame is there, and i'll point out a few reasons why furthut down. (BTW, the Flame can teleport around.)

I think you're responding to my comment about Kid calling Serge across dimensions in Chrono Cross. If you are, what I was talking about wasn't where Serge "goes back" to the orphanage at Lucca's house. What I was talking about was the very beginning of Chrono Cross, where Serge initially gets pulled across to Another World.

No, I was talking about my own point. You said that the pendant was able to create gates because it's dreamstone. I'm say it's not, and that other powers can do it aswell. For instance Masa and Mune themselves, who actually are dreams of Melchior come to life through the power of Lavos. I was trying to relate the fact that the Mastermune was the Masamune and show that it has some power too.

So you're saying that the creation and safeguarding of the Wings of Time, all the preparation he went through to inform who would open the sealed door about who he was, what he knew about Lavos, how to ultimately defeat Lavos, and about his Wings of Time, creating the ability to climb Death Peak, as well his transferring of his mind to the Nu, was all just foresight?

No, I'm just saying that he may have gone insane from making the plan. Though, I do believe that a lot of his predictions even in the Lavos time line were probably from some kind of foresight like power. His description in the Missing Piece book says that he knows everything, and can see through all of time. Ookay...

We can say that dreamstone responds to human emotion upon physical contact due to the Guru of Reason's theories on dreamstone and the discovery or origin of human emotion. There is no evidence, however, as to whether or not dreamstone is extremely sensitive to human emotion.

Belthasar's book wasn't talking about dreamstone, to claify this. It was about the Frozen Flame. Ever aspect of it, even the Love and Hate part were talked about in Chronopolis, all about the flame. By tying in the evidence scattered in CT, RD and finally in CC, it all points to the flame. 1) Belthasar knew what dreamstone was, and would have just called it that. 2) Belthasar wasn't the only one to refer to it as the crimson/red shard (Lynx too). 3) Shard being the main word here. The FF is a shard of Lavos. 4) Chronopolis says that when the flame was discovered, the human brain advanced x3 the normal rate, so it pretty much happened in 3,000,000BC.

[AuraTwilight]

The pendant seems to have a soul. That is implied with how the pendant followed Marle after the Ocean Palace, and landed on her shoulder when she was washed up, as if it was guarding her.

I believe the pendant may be a conglomeration of every soul it's come in contact with. Schala's compassion, wisdom, and purity, combined with Marle's fiery determination and strength of will, combined with Crono's heroism and courage (along with Marle's descendants which we can assume had qualities of any of the other three) creates a soul in the pendant I'm pretty sure would guard it's owner and work for the benefit of mankind and stuff.

His shell is not made up of Frozen Flames... It was a single splinter, maybe purposly or accidently splintered off. If His shell was made of Frozen Flames, which are independant to absorbing their own energy, then he'd be way stronger than the planet and would not even need it >.>

Holy crap, Zapar, you can't be this stupid. The Frozen Flame and Lavos's shell are made of the same material. The Frozen Flame gets it's power from Lavos. The Frozen Flame is a tool created by Lavos that he might possibly be able to dismissively dispose of if he wanted. and Lavos IS way stronger than the planet. He kicked it's ASS in the original timeline.

[Chrono'99]

The Frozen Flame and Lavos's shell are made of the same material.

Huh, no?