That stupid grandfather paradox

[SilentMartyr]

When Marle is gated, the pendant is the first to react. The telepod was not even at full power when the pendant started to glow. Then the pendant falls off Marle, right when she dematierializes, and she goes into the gate.

Think about it, when does Marle actually dissapear? Not right when she enters the gate, not right after she enters 600, not even when she is initially mistaken for Leene. She dissapears after Crono had established that it was Marle and she was alive.

Same thing for when she reappears, not the exact moment Yakra is killed, not when they return to the castle. She reappears as soon as Crono enters the room.

These observations lead me to believe that the Entity pulled Marle into the DBT temporarily, until Crono and Lucca had successfully had saved the Queen. From that I theorized that the Entity was responsible for all gates seen in Trigger.


No one else shares that theory.  

[Legend of the Past]

While I share the idea that it was the Entity that sent Marle to the DBT, I'm not sure if the Entity's responsible for all the gates.

[AuraTwilight]

I agree, Martyr. That's what I've been saying since the BEGINNING.

I also think the Entity is responsible for the Gates, minus the Black ones that defy timespace laws (Ocean Palace, Magus' summoning, Time Crash.)

[JossiRossi]

Why would the entity remove Marle if there wasn't a need to? It's not like Crono, Lucca, and Frog (once he found out that Marle wasn't Leene) were just going to leave Marle there. There is no presing NEED to remove Marle from the picture at that point. The discrepancy can be attributed to plenty of things.

1. Storyline, it's just a better plot device to have her disappear in front of you and reappear similarly. I think this whole Marle disappearing bit actually causes all sorts of issues because this time traveling disruption doesn't happen again but in theory it should (and actually mess eveything up royally).

2. Delays due to something akin to quantum time signature. In essense the delay is caused by the fact that any changes in 600 AD take a certain amount of time to alter the future timelines. So it'd be like a wave traveling from 600 AD to the infinite future, the farther down the timeline the longer it takes to change. Since Marle is not of the 600 time period the time changes do not affect her at that time, instead the effect occurs once the time wave hits the present time thus affecting her at that time.

The fact is, that if realtime changes to a timeline can cause someone to disappear then there are plenty of instances that simply should have killed all the travelers. I mean lets say at that Ioka dance Lucca ends up chatting with an ancestor of hers, unfortunately that ancestor was supposed to meet her husband that day. The dance, and the fact Lucca prevents a first meeting by pure luck means that with time changes being realtime. At that given moment she would have ruined her family tree thus destroying herself. Also, I have absolutly no idea why time changes are (or could possibly) be realtime. I hate that they did this little chunk and I can't rationalize it any other way, the gamemakers are just wrong in this case.

[ChronoMagus]

There are a lot flaws with CT actually... think about it.  
If Marle was found and Leene was never found then there would never be a Nadia or for that matter any descendants to the throne...  Therefore the timestream should have instantly been altered.  The second Nadia disappeared something should have happened, because history was forever damaged.
Therefore the delayed reactions prove it is the Entity... this way the Entity can manipulate it so that Crono and Co. meets up, sees the future, becomes strong, and destroys Lavos.  Crono and Co. are like white blood cells that the Entity has very conscious influence over.

[JossiRossi]

I still fail to see how it was the entity. That line of reasoning doesn't seem to flow with the previous thing you spoke of.

[Sentenal]

Why would the entity remove Marle if there wasn't a need to?

Under his theory, Marle would not have even been gated in the first place, if not for the entity.  Look, I'll sum it up:

-The Entity changed time by created that gate at Leene Square, which was not there in the original timeline (thus no gating in the original timeline).
-The Entity then waited for Crono and Lucca to follow Marle, then removed her from the timeline, to spur Crono further on his quest.

[Zaperking]

Why would the entity remove Marle if there wasn't a need to?

Under his theory, Marle would not have even been gated in the first place, if not for the entity.  Look, I'll sum it up:

-The Entity changed time by created that gate at Leene Square, which was not there in the original timeline (thus no gating in the original timeline).
-The Entity then waited for Crono and Lucca to follow Marle, then removed her from the timeline, to spur Crono further on his quest.

But since everyone thinks that the Entity is dreaming this, then even the gate should have been an accident of it thinking back to what it could have changed. Since it's dreaming, it can't really take Marle out. Besides, where would it get so much energy to place her in and out. It doesn't matter about the mass, or how much power you have, the game has shown that only quasi dimensional beings can be in the DBT but be in the outside world at the same time, and that only the DBT's time laws release people from there naturally, if you get there in an irregular way - you can probably leave with that same method (time egg situation). But the fact was that Marle was sent there because the timeline had caught up to the future with the chance that Leene was never saved. If the entity had that much power, it'd send Lavos in there.

Also, look at Lavos. Lavos is stronger than the entity since it absorbed all its power, but even it could not escape, but Schala almost managed to, maybe tapping into Lavos' energy.

[SilentMartyr]

Okay, I'll explain it in further detail from the beginning.

In the Lavos timeline, the gate was never there. Marle would have gone through the telepod A-OK and then they would have gone on being teens and then whatever they did in the Lavos timeline. Also, Leene was saved by someone. By who we do not know. It could have been Frog, it could have been the knights, hell it could have even been Toma. All that matters is that someone besides Crono and Lucca saved the Queen.

In Keystone 1 the Entity made that gate, and gave Crono and Lucca the perception that the pendant reacted with the telepod. Crono followed Marle in, but the pendadnt stayed. Once Crono found Marle and knew she was okay the Entity sent her to the DBT. It did so because it needed Crono and Lucca to meet Frog.

Think about it, what would have happened if they had never met Frog? It would have been nearly impossible for the group to reach and fight Magus. I doubt they would have been able to get by the Magic Cave without Frog's showmanistic approach to opening to cave door. Without Crono and Lucca meeting Frog then the whole adventure is nil. Sure they didn't need the Masamune for anything else, but they would have been spending lots of time and effort trying to find a way into Magus's Castle.

When the Queen was saved and everyone was back where they were supposed to be, Crono returned to the Queens room and Marle instantly appeared. Then Marle says something:

Marle: It was awful...

   I can't recall it all...
   I was somewhere cold, dark...and
   lonely.

   Is that what it's like to...die?

This quote to me means something important. It means that Marle was consious during her "trip" and she was fully aware of her surroundings. Now I am not trying to say what death is like in the Chronoverse, but if Marle could feel the effects of her surroundings I really doubt she was dead. By dead I mean dead, not the "dead" that she experienced. The DBT is the next logical explination for where she ended up.


Thank you Aura, at least someone likes it.   I'll let you slide with the Lavos gate creation stuff. I work in baby steps.

JR that is all well and good, but its a singularity in the series. When at any other time does that happen? It doesn't to my knowledge.

But since everyone thinks that the Entity is dreaming this, then even the gate should have been an accident of it thinking back to what it could have changed. Since it's dreaming, it can't really take Marle out. Besides, where would it get so much energy to place her in and out. It doesn't matter about the mass, or how much power you have, the game has shown that only quasi dimensional beings can be in the DBT but be in the outside world at the same time, and that only the DBT's time laws release people from there naturally, if you get there in an irregular way - you can probably leave with that same method (time egg situation). But the fact was that Marle was sent there because the timeline had caught up to the future with the chance that Leene was never saved. If the entity had that much power, it'd send Lavos in there.

Also, look at Lavos. Lavos is stronger than the entity since it absorbed all its power, but even it could not escape, but Schala almost managed to, maybe tapping into Lavos' energy.

I am incredibly confused here. Are you saying that nothing that happens is actually happening? That the Entity is dreaming this scenario up but it actually is going to die regardless of the outcome?

Why would it need a ton of energy to put a tiny being in the DBT for a short amount of time? Only quasi-dimesional beings can be in the DBT?? Last time I checked neither Schala nor Lavos were quasi-dimensional until after the TD was formed.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Lavos is more powerful than the Entity. There is no way of measuring the capabilites of the Entity, heck we are arguing right now if it has control over beings that live on its planet. Lavos couldn't have escaped the DBT because it was killed. Only time eggs can save dead things from being permanently dead. As for Schala, let me say a quote from an old teacher of mine:

"Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades."

[Zaperking]

I'm trying to say that since it's implied in the game that the entity was on the verge of dying, and saw it's flashbacks of all important places in time where it should have changed something, those flashbacks could have been accidental because it was peering into them. I mean, really, if the entity is dreaming, it shouldn't be conscious enough to control it's dreams.

Marle's displacement into the DBT could have been a natural thing for all we know, but the entity could have caused the spark with the pendant. You can't really deny the pendant though. If the Astral Amulet is the pendant, it pretty much has a powerful effect over time as well as crossing dimensions. Either way, it can still affect time with Kid. So it wouldn't be out of the question.

As for Lavos, it's the fact that the entity was dying. Lavos may not have a spiritual entity like being, but it's physical. So if  Lavos defeats the entities physical body, he's pretty much done it in. /right?

[JossiRossi]

In reference to needing Marle gone for Chrono and Lucca to team with Frog gets into murky waters I don't like going. The fact is that we can't tell what may or may not have happened if  Marle stayed. However, just because Frog eventually joined Lucca and Chrono after Marle disappeared does not mean for sure that the 2 events are related. in fact it appears to be very NOT related.

 [Frog]
   Lower thine guard and thou'rt allowing
   the enemy in.

   Thou'rt here to save the Queen?

   The lair is deep within.
   Will thee accompany me?

Frog didn't go with them because Marle was gone, or because he wanted to save her. He went because he felt it was his job to save the queen, and so if other people are going too, he will go along.

Marle got pulled out basically for gameplay reasons. And it conflicts with the plot. Gah, still hate this damn thing =p

[AuraTwilight]

I still think that the Entity, Lavos, and every other superpowerful being is writing up the laws of time travel as they go along. Perhaps they can just "boink" and change the laws as they see fit.

[ChronoMagus]

Way I see it, is that as Lavos gained a sense of arrogance lowering his guard a bit and the Entity had realized it lost. The Entity then did a desperate thing back in 1000 AD.  It probably did not wish to have time eras intersect but it did it so the greatest warriors of time, or those who had the potential of such would meet.  T
Think about after we return from 600 AD and after the prison episode.
Guards chase us to the field, but the field was not accesible pre this event.  And look, a convient gate is there so they can escape and the plan goes well. Hey how convient, the gate leads to a world where the entity can show them what Lavos did and make them realize what do... not only that but we gain a fomidable ally which can then later be used to help us.
Seriously I doubt this is just a series of lucky events...

[Sentenal]

But since everyone thinks that the Entity is dreaming this, then even the gate should have been an accident of it thinking back to what it could have changed. Since it's dreaming...

Its dreaming figuratively.  Same as MLK jr.'s Dream.

If the entity had that much power, it'd send Lavos in there.

Zaper, tell me, what would be harder:  picking up a small pebble, and chucking it into a lake, or picking up a giant bolder, and throwing it into a lake?  I know that this example is something to do with physical elements, like weight, but in terms of "magical" elements, or other such things, it applies.

In reference to needing Marle gone for Chrono and Lucca to team with Frog gets into murky waters I don't like going. The fact is that we can't tell what may or may not have happened if Marle stayed.

If Marle stayed, Crono and co would have just gone home.  No need to work with Frog to do anything, no reason to form an alliance with them.   As far as they knew, they didn't want to effect history anymore than needed.  And it would have been impossible to get past the Magus part of the game without Frog.  They needed to go on that quest in the begining.  Was Frog trying to save Marle?  No, he was trying to save the Queen, who he didn't believe was saved yet (no one but Crono&Lucca knew).  But they met, and Crono needed to save Leene (to save Marle), and Frog needed to save Leene.  Without Marle disappearing, Crono would not have hooked up with him.

And Silent, I like your idea too

[ChronoMagus]

Thank you Sentenal and Silent...
Here is another thing to think about... what kind of person does not know about a Gate in the middle of their cupboard.  Seriously, the gate to Medina from 2300 AD was unknown to the inhabinants of that house before Crono and Co.  I say this based upon the Mystic reactions.  They were outright shocked.  Not just shocked but incredibly shocked.  If they knew of a Gate this should not have been so much of a suprise.  They would have wondered what that thing was, and realized that its finally activated.  But they seem to have no idea whatsoever...
Solution to this problem:  Entity places another convinent gate...  seeing that the options of the future heroes are few, it puts the gate in the optimal dome.  
Then it realizes that they must meet up with the Gurus.  Guru of Time is easy... just enact the Conservation of Time.  This way they can learn magic as well with Speekio.  Well thats wonderful, but how about the Guru of Life... put a gate on to the Median continent.  Crono should have already met Melchinor once, now he can finally meet his residence.
Entity must also ensure that they get back home, but also must be sure they are capable of using magic.  Make them fight their way to the Heckran.