Author Topic: That stupid grandfather paradox  (Read 17671 times)

DBoruta

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2006, 11:26:05 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Marle's displacement into the DBT could have been a natural thing for all we know


This is a much more sound statement than theorizing that the Entity did it.  Here's why:  When Marle was found and mistaken for Queen Leene in 600 A.D., she changed history.  Her disappearance to what was probably the DBT could have been (and I believe was) the exact result that Lucca explained to Crono about how if Leene wasn't saved, Marle would not exist.  Marle most likely happened to disappear at that point because Queen Leene was about to be killed, had Crono, Frog, and Lucca not come in the nick of time.

If you're not convinced, let's consider the movie, Back to the Future.  Marty saves his father from being hit by a car and changes history.  When it appears that his future parents aren't about to kiss at the Under the Sea dance, Marty begins to fade out of existence.

GrayLensman

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2006, 11:55:09 pm »
The problem with Marle's disappearance being due to the grandfather paradox is, in other instances of time travel, the travellers can cause significant changes to the past, while, in the very least, retaining their original memories.  Time travel in the series, particularly how it is explained in Chrono Cross, precludes grandfather or predestination paradoxes.

DBoruta

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2006, 12:04:07 am »
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The problem with Marle's disappearance being due to the grandfather paradox is, in other instances of time travel, the travellers can cause significant changes to the past, while, in the very least, retaining their original memories. Time travel in the series, particularly how it is explained in Chrono Cross, precludes grandfather or predestination paradoxes.


That doesn't cover staying in existence.  Marle could keep her original memories, but that doesn't mean she can't phase out of existence/ go to the DBT because her future in terms of being able to exist has been changed.

GrayLensman

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2006, 12:09:49 am »
Quote from: DBoruta
That doesn't cover staying in existence.  Marle could keep her original memories, but that doesn't mean she can't phase out of existence/ go to the DBT because her future in terms of being able to exist has been changed.


Assuming memories are physical properties of the time travellers' brains, it is the same thing as phasing out of existence.  If Marle disappeared due to a paradox, Crono's memories prior to the Black Omen and Magus's memories of the events of the original Ocean Palace disaster should phase out as well.

DBoruta

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2006, 08:48:36 am »
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Assuming memories are physical properties of the time travellers' brains, it is the same thing as phasing out of existence. If Marle disappeared due to a paradox, Crono's memories prior to the Black Omen and Magus's memories of the events of the original Ocean Palace disaster should phase out as well.


Well, you would be correct in saying that the memories phase out of the physical plane of existence along with the body and soul, but then we have that person's body and soul essentially reappearing in the DBT.  Therefore, the memories and body are intact yet, but just not in the physical plane of existence.  With this reasoning, a person can still retain memories due to Time Traveler's Immunity, but the person's actual existence in the physical plane can change as a result of his or her actions while time traveling.

JossiRossi

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2006, 10:27:21 am »
Marle disappeared because changes made to the timeline affected her phyisically.

Memories are part of the physical brain. (If you contend this take a whisk and mash up your memory parts of the brain, see if you actually remmeber anything afterward)

So if time travel can affect the phyisical body, it can affect memories, so the Time Traveling group would constantly have their memories changed (like they would forget that the lush forest on the south continent (after you guys fix it) was once actually just an empty desert. Or they'd forget that they'd haden't seen the Black Omen in the skys their whole lives.

Fact is, if Time Travel can remove Marle, it can remove anyone and anything physical and that includes making memories change.

GrayLensman

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2006, 11:01:19 am »
Also, if time travellers have immunity that protects their memories (which is apparent), Marle would not have disappeared, either.

SilentMartyr

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2006, 12:48:31 pm »
Thanks for explaining for me Sentenal.  :D

Quote from: ChronoMagus
Here is another thing to think about... what kind of person does not know about a Gate in the middle of their cupboard.  Seriously, the gate to Medina from 2300 AD was unknown to the inhabinants of that house before Crono and Co.  I say this based upon the Mystic reactions.  They were outright shocked.  Not just shocked but incredibly shocked.  If they knew of a Gate this should not have been so much of a suprise.  They would have wondered what that thing was, and realized that its finally activated.  But they seem to have no idea whatsoever...


Not to be an ass but when was the last time you played the game? Melchior came through that same gate when he was gated from the Ocean Palace, before Crono and co. even started thier merry adventure. The mystics were surprised because that gate had only opened once before, and then dissapeared completely. Would you freak out if people popped in and out of your cabinet unannounced completely randomly? I would assume so.

DB, using time travel mechanics from a different story doesn't change anything. It's a completely different set of circumstances and events, and different forms of time travel.

Zaperking

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2006, 04:14:08 pm »
Has anyone ever thought that we only see gates because it's a game thing. Maybe they're not even seeable, but when the gate key gets to close, then they apparate etc.

DBoruta

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2006, 05:17:04 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Also, if time travellers have immunity that protects their memories (which is apparent), Marle would not have disappeared, either.


I gave this more thought, and to support my point, let's consider the Chrono universe in this way (this is part of a theory on time I've been putting together, but it's far from complete):  

1) There are 3 dimensions in which an object in the physical plane can be represented.
2) Those three dimensions are bound by the constraints of the flow of time, which is the fourth dimension.
3) Therefore, anything within the first three dimensions can have positive movement through time, but not negative (unless there is an exception), due to being bound by the fourth dimension.  
4) If an object or being is able to be free to move in both positive and negative directions along the fourth dimensional axis, that object has achieved free four-dimensional movement.  
5) An object with four-dimensional movement falls under the constraint of a fifth dimension.  

Taking this into consideration, all four dimensions could also fall under the constraints of this fifth dimension.  It is under this fifth dimensional "time" that time travelers are able to retain their memories, however, if something is done during time travel that jeopordizes their future existence (as in ever being born), there is a possibility that the time traveler will disappear to the DBT (which I believe is a fifth-dimensional place) while still retaining his or her memories.  

Quote from: SilentMartyr
DB, using time travel mechanics from a different story doesn't change anything. It's a completely different set of circumstances and events, and different forms of time travel.


I was trying to give another example that is very similar in case someone didn't understand what I was talking about.  I know that not everything from it will apply, but it will give a good idea of what's happening with Marle.

GrayLensman

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2006, 05:44:37 pm »
Quote from: DBoruta
Taking this into consideration, all four dimensions could also fall under the constraints of this fifth dimension.  It is under this fifth dimensional "time" that time travelers are able to retain their memories, however, if something is done during time travel that jeopordizes their future existence (as in ever being born), there is a possibility that the time traveler will disappear to the DBT (which I believe is a fifth-dimensional place) while still retaining his or her memories.


This assumes that the laws of nature distinguish between living beings and the neurons which encode memories.  If someone changes the past so their memories are changed, the neurons would be sent to the DBT.

Sentenal

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2006, 08:03:50 pm »
Quote
Taking this into consideration, all four dimensions could also fall under the constraints of this fifth dimension. It is under this fifth dimensional "time" that time travelers are able to retain their memories, however, if something is done during time travel that jeopordizes their future existence (as in ever being born), there is a possibility that the time traveler will disappear to the DBT (which I believe is a fifth-dimensional place) while still retaining his or her memories.

Memory is just as "physical" as data stored on a computer.  Memories are simply data stored in the brain, its part of your physical being (as the brain is part of your body).

Chrono'99

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2006, 08:15:26 pm »
Quote
Taking this into consideration, all four dimensions could also fall under the constraints of this fifth dimension. It is under this fifth dimensional "time" that time travelers are able to retain their memories, however, if something is done during time travel that jeopordizes their future existence (as in ever being born), there is a possibility that the time traveler will disappear to the DBT (which I believe is a fifth-dimensional place) while still retaining his or her memories.

Quote from: Chronopolis
[Ghost]
   Memory scanning and
   rewriting is not that
   difficult a thing.
   As a matter of fact, it
   is possible to simulate
   the thoughts and feelings
   of each individual.
   These are all just electric
   signals that flow around
   the circuitry of the brain,
   after all.
   The vessels of flesh can
   be reproduced through
   cloning...
   And the '"soul"'
   stored within these
   fleshly vessels can
   be simulated as well...
   Thus, one could even go so
   far as to say that death
   itself no longer exists.
   Of course the expiration
   of an individual being,
   as a variation within the
   species, still occurs.
   Overall, we can reverse the
   old maxim and say that where
   there is no death there will
   be life...

DBoruta

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2006, 09:43:27 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
This assumes that the laws of nature distinguish between living beings and the neurons which encode memories. If someone changes the past so their memories are changed, the neurons would be sent to the DBT.

Quote from: Sentenal
Memory is just as "physical" as data stored on a computer. Memories are simply data stored in the brain, its part of your physical being (as the brain is part of your body).


I understand what you're getting at and why the Grandfather Paradox exists the way it does.  I still think that this can be explained.  

The point I was trying to make is that there is fourth dimensional time as we know it and is the normal flow of time and what the time periods exist in.  Then, there is a time flow outside of time, and the only way I've found to explain it so far is by proposing that there is a fifth-dimensional level in the Chrono Universe where along this second "time" axis one can move back and forth across fourth dimensional time.  

So, once one begins travel throughout 4-D time and changes 4-D time, in order to retain these "old" memories of 4-D time (Time Traveler's Immunity), there must be a 5-D "time" axis along which the time traveler must be residing so that he or she is immune to such changes.  This doesn't just include a living being that can remember, but also any object.  Take the Wings of Time for example - its ability to travel in 4-D time makes it that it can reside on the 5-D axis.  

Now, the problem with Marle comes into play.  The problem with her is that she jeopordized her ability to reside on any axis of existence, not just 1-D, 2-D, 3-D, and 4-D.  She made a change that must have affected her ability to come under the constraints of 5-D as well.  As such, she was (probably) sent to the DBT, which I propose to be a patch of 5-D space where anything that doesn't belong in existence goes to reside (this may even be a 6-D plane...  I'm still trying to figure it out).  There she is still able to remember what happened there because she is technically still on some "time" axis.  

Now, as far as the problem of "If she can disappear from existence, why don't her memories change?" goes, I'm approaching it thinking that there has to be certain conditions that need to be met for time traveler's immunity to happen.  One of these conditions must be that the object or person must be able to physically exist along the 5-D "time" axis.  So, in other words, changing time has its limits - memories along a 5-D axis are retained by the time traveler, but eventually if 4-D time is changed in a way that affects 5-D time, the consequences can be disastrous (as in Marle's case).

For now, this is the best solution I can propose for the Grandfather Paradox.

Sentenal

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That stupid grandfather paradox
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2006, 10:03:10 pm »
Changes in time arn't gradual.  They are instant.  Take any instance of time travel where you see noticable changes from past to future.  Why was Marle's gradual?

But look, did you read what Chrono99 posted?  The game comfirms that memories are data stored in the brain.  Memories arn't some fifth dimension appect of a person.

The entire situtation with Marle is broken.  Lets just say that it was the grandfather paradox, even though its not.  We know from countless other examples of timetravel in the game that changes in time are instant.

So were assuming the grandfather paradox, and we are given that time changes instantly.  So why did Marle disappear when she did?  Leene was not dead when Marle disappeared.  Going on the idea that changes are instant, Marle would have only disappeared when Leene dies.  But lets say that Marle disappeared because Leene was going to die.  That entire idea is unfounded, as things don't change because they were "going to happen."  Crono was going to save Leene, therefore she wouldn't have died, therefore Marle wouldn't have disappeared.  But under this idea, Marle's disappearance should have occured even before Crono arrived, after all she was Leene was supposed to die even then.

But its neither.  Marle only disappears "between" these too.  Its before Leene "should" die, yet its not instantly the moment she "should" die.  Its only after Lucca goes to 600.

There are alot of other issues that strongly imply it cannot be the grandfather paradox.  For example, Marle time traveled before Crono, and thus arrived in 600ad while Crono was still in 1000ad.  Crono didn't have TTI at the time, and thus Marle's presence in 600ad would have triggered the grandfather paradox, Leene dies, and by the time it gets back to 1000ad, non-TTI Crono would never meet Marle, nor go back in time to save her.

The only way to resolve all the inconsistancies with this is to say the Entity removed Marle to spur Crono on his quest.