Quote Digest

[ZeaLitY]

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Boy, can I agree with this one.

[Leebot]

If the law says you can use lethal force to defend yourself, family, or property, and you use lethal force to do so, then no, its not vigilanteism.  It would only be so if the law didn't allow it.

The definition isn't quite that simple. Look up the story of Bernhard Goetz. Four men attempted to mug him, and he shot them all (none died, though one was paralyzed for life). Even though the law technically covers his actions, and he was cleared of any charges, he's still brought up as a prime example of a vigilante--in this case possibly a bad one, given the extreme separation between his actions and those of the muggers.

As another example, take the Guardian Angels of New York City. Their goal (when founded, at least) was to patrol dangerous stretches of subway in order to prevent muggings. (The police were too busy with numerous other crimes.) This here is precisely the definition of vigilantes; citizens taking the law into their own hands. Now, in this case, their motives are unquestionably good, and their methods are legal. But they're vigilantes nonetheless. (Note that they've sinced changed and expanded their mandate. Go to http://www.guardianangels.org/history.html for more info)

Finally, here's something for thought: Name a superhero. Chances are, he's a vigilante. Even Superman, arguably the tamest and most respecting of the law, fits into this definition as he works to uphold the law when the normal system can't.

[Daniel Krispin]

Finally, here's something for thought: Name a superhero. Chances are, he's a vigilante. Even Superman, arguably the tamest and most respecting of the law, fits into this definition as he works to uphold the law when the normal system can't.

You bring up a good point with this. This is precisely, I think, what the new Batman movie attempted to address, what seperates the hero from the vigilante. I guess that is what made it so good: it doesn't just take the hero's deeds at face value as being well intentioned, but really strives to examine the more complex reasons of justice and punishment. What makes Batman different than a vigilante? That seems to have been the main focus of the movie, rather than simply getting the bad guys, and it was better for it.

I can't remember the exact quote, but what is it that Bruce Wayne says when he is told to execute the murderer while in Asia? He says something to the effect that he can't turn murderer to serve justice. Otherwise, he will be no better than those he seeks to fight against.

[ZeaLitY]

Ra's Al Ghul accuses him of showing compassion I think, and then Wayne states that compassion is what separates the givers of justice from criminals.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Update: The man who killed the pedophile has been convicted of murder. He's already serving a life sentance, so this, second life sentance is mostly symbolic. He told the jury that he had no hard feelings toward them.

[Paradox]

A ship is safe in harbor-- but that's not what ships are for.
-John A. Shedd

I love this one because it really connects with a forever true element of humanity. We love danger, we love adventure, we craft and build and create souly to throw ourselves into the unknown.

Buddha was once threatened with death by a bandit called Angulimal. "Be good enough to fulfill my dying wish," said Buddha, "cut off the branch of that tree." One slash of the sword and it was done! "What now?" asked the bandit. "Put it back again," said Buddha. The bandit laughed. "You must be crazy to think that anyone could do that." "On the contrary," replied Buddha,"it is you who are crazy to think that you are mighty because you can wound and destroy. That is the task of children. The mighty know how to create and heal."

-from "The Heart of the Enlightened"
by Anthony De Mello

Love this one too, though it's more of a passage then a quote. Sorry.

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"
   
-George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Last one I like. On with the show!

[Radical_Dreamer]

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"
   
-George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Last one I like. On with the show!

I never get tired of reading that one. How inspirational, and how beautiful a way to look at the world.

[Burning Zeppelin]

1. Even though I don't agree with the child-molestor-killing-dude, I just wonder how you would feel if your child had been violated, scarred emotionally and physically.
2. Being hated for who you are ain't that bad, as long as what it is is deemed bad by your morals or you societies morals (though being hated it bad anyways). Being loved for who you are not is horrible (I have felt it) and being hated for who you are not is extremely horrible (ditto). Being loved for who you are not is the greatest worldly feeling possible.
3. I'll get back to you once I read the whole thread.

Now for some quotes:

1. (Sentenal will get a kick out of this): "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed!  Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.  From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."   (Luk.12:49-53) "Jesus"

2. "You should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm." Muhammad

3. "What is the best type of Jihad [struggle]?" He answered: "Speaking truth before a tyrannical ruler." Muhammad

4. "Happy is the man who avoids dissension, but how fine is the man who is afflicted and shows endurance." Muhammad

5. "Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers." Muhammad

6. “The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self”. Muhammad

7. “He is not strong and powerful who throweth people down; but he is strong who witholdeth himself from anger” Muhammad

8. “Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them” Muhammad

I could go on...but one thing crazy Muslims should know...

“Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them” Muhammad

"Though one should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, he who conquers his own self, is the greatest of all conquerers." Buddha

Oh, and Sentenal, The Holy Spirit is Gabriel and the word (as in, in the beginning there was the word, and the word was with god...) was the word god said to create Jesus, and the word is NOT god. Just venting, thats all...[/i]

[Daniel Krispin]

Oh, and Sentenal, The Holy Spirit is Gabriel and the word (as in, in the beginning there was the word, and the word was with god...) was the word god said to create Jesus, and the word is NOT god. Just venting, thats all...[/i]

Actually, what John's getting at with that is a certain philisophical idea of the time where there was deemed to be a divinity called the Logos, 'Word', by the Greeks. It acted as a sort of messenger between god and man, or so the idea went if I remember right. John, in writing his gospel, was attempting to reach the people of the time who knew of this idea. Essentially, he's trying to say 'In the beginning was the Word', to which they all would say 'yes, we know that.' Likewise, 'The word was with God', and likewise they'd say it to be nothing new. But he's being radical in speaking of the Logos as being God in the last line 'and the Word WAS God' (or, literally, 'and God was the Word.') It's one of those things that would probably have made more sense to the listeners at the time than people these days.

[Burning Zeppelin]

But wasn't the Gospel meant to be the word of God? And why did Paul himself say that his version was actually HIS gospel? (ie pauls, not gods) And why was Paul such an ass as to destroy Moses law (Jesus himself said he came to confirm that of the Torah) and create the myth of the three day resseruction.

Mr ET: I Pity the fool who doesn't phone home!

[Sentenal]

O RLY?

Okay, here we go, its fun time:

1. (Sentenal will get a kick out of this): "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." (Luk.12:49-53) "Jesus"

Oh, and Sentenal, The Holy Spirit is Gabriel and the word (as in, in the beginning there was the word, and the word was with god...) was the word god said to create Jesus, and the word is NOT god. Just venting, thats all...[/i]

First on Luke 12:49-53.  First, on Jesus coming to bring fire to the earth.  Thats true.  Baptising the world in fire.  He was refering to this, said by John the Baptist:

He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Luke 3:16-17)

As for bring division within a household, it is division from the unbelief of your family.  If you become a Christian, yet your father, mother, or whoever does not, that creates division.  In current days, entire households can be Christian, but it was not so in the dayso of Jesus.  If you became his follower, it would create division in your house.

Now, as for the Holy Spirit.  The Archangel Gabriel being the Holy Spirit is a construction of your Religion, not mine.  In my religion, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God.  Things you believe about your religion has no bearing on mine.

About the "Word".  Lets look at John 1, shall we?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hmmm, I wonder who that could be talking about...</sarcaism>

Well, since you got to quote my holy book, I might as well quote yours, you might get a kick out of it

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them (note: them=disbelievers), and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters (note: has been translated as pagans; non-muslims) wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates.

[22.19] These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.

Ahhh, the peaceful religion of Islam.

[Burning Zeppelin]

It is worth noting the "find them..." part in 2 and 9 mean in war. Specifically 9 (Taubah) is the Surah talking about a broken treaty. And yes, don't most people kill each other in war? And hey, becoming a slave in an Islamic System is better then being dead.
I'll get back to you once I find that book...

[Sentenal]

It is worth noting the "find them..." part in 2 and 9 mean in war. Specifically 9 (Taubah) is the Surah talking about a broken treaty. And yes, don't most people kill each other in war? And hey, becoming a slave in an Islamic System is better then being dead.
I'll get back to you once I find that book...

Yeah, I can see how killing people because of religion, or going to war because of religion, is a sane thing to do.  Just ask Josh, he loved it when Christians did it.

[GrayLensman]

It is worth noting the "find them..." part in 2 and 9 mean in war. Specifically 9 (Taubah) is the Surah talking about a broken treaty. And yes, don't most people kill each other in war? And hey, becoming a slave in an Islamic System is better then being dead.
I'll get back to you once I find that book...

Yeah, I can see how killing people because of religion, or going to war because of religion, is a sane thing to do.  Just ask Josh, he loved it when Christians did it.

Please don't start a flame war.  This thread wasn't intended for heated religious discussion.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Gray, you are right. But two things: Yes, when someone attacks you or persecutes you due to religion, you fight back for your religion.
Secondly,

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Say: O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine. -God

Whatever. I stand back and lets just continue peacefully, only arguing when it comes to games.

We must accept finite disappointment, but we must never lose infinite hope.
      --Martin Luther King