"Luminair"

[maggiekarp]

Ah, so you are effectively stating that the element name would be better referenced as "Clouds" rather than "Lightning" or "Heaven."

"Heaven" refers to the skies and to the western concept of fluffy cloud place. It's an excellent name for Crono's magic type, and you should feel bad for suggesting otherwise.

[Thought]

"Heaven" refers to the skies and to the western concept of fluffy cloud place. It's an excellent name for Crono's magic type, and you should feel bad for suggesting otherwise.

Sorry, I still don't feel bad. Heaven isn't that bad of an element name, but Lightning isn't that bad either. Neither are perfect as neither perfectly match the gameplay elements. Angels and lightning never mix in any concept of Heaven; the common theme between the two is that clouds are often related, thus an element name of "Cloud" really would cover all gameplay criteria better than Heaven.

Heaven also refers to the universe in general (the stars visible to the naked eye specifically), aka outer space. If we stretch heaven to include both angels and lightning in order to justify the Japanese name, then there is little difference in throwing dark matter, black holes, and dark bombs into the mix as well. Well... maybe not that last one. Point being, if we stretch the definition of Heaven to fit gameplay elements, rather than fitting gameplay elements to an established singular concept, Heaven could just as easily fit much of Magus' magic as Chrono's.

It isn't that Heaven is or is not an "excellent name" for Chrono's magic type, rather that Lightning works about as well. Which is to say, from an "academic" standpoint, they don't work. Thus, sometimes a gameplay element is just a gameplay element.

Shining on the other hand...

[V_Translanka]

So what if it (supposedly) also fits in with Magus' Magic? Aren't we told that Shadow Magic is a COMBINATION of the other three Magics?

Heaven meaning heavenly or 'of the heavens' fits for all of them, I think...Plus, what about other mythologies? Like if we take in Norse or Roman/Greek? Then you've got Thor and Zeus heralding thunder & lightning from the heavens (Mount Olympus specifically). And why does it have to fit ONE definition of a specific culture's "Heaven"...It'd a video game based in a world with it's own rules and guidelines. I think it can take ideas from different sources.

[Thought]

I think it can take ideas from different sources.

Exactly! But when we take ideas from different sources, we then must inherently give up a strict criteria of what something could or could not be (if the definitions are vague, that which is defined must also be vague).

Thus, to return to my original point a page or two back (on Oct 22nd), though gameplay shows "Life" involving angels, it can just as easily be a "lightning" based spell as a "heaven" based one. Insisting on one or the other just doesn't work.

[V_Translanka]

Yeah, but "lightning" is just a Woosleyism.

[Lavodox]

In the new translation, Luminaire is referred to as a "holy" attack. It's also called Shining. his should clear up a few things.

[ShoeMagus]

I think this is is a case of the "big thinks." How can you think to tie in Greek and Norse Mythology with chi? At some point, we have to deal more directly with the Chronoverse and what we know if it, and less with the real world (though real world parallels can provide insight, ascribing Serge's attack to "Chi" when "Chi" is never mentioned in the game itself doesn't make sense).

Again, I think I must help emphasize a line between CT Elements and CC Elements. There are four CT Elements. They are the balancing forces of the Chronoverse. These are, to me, the pure form of magic. You are truly using magic when you're using these elements.

The magical system of CC involves innate "colors." This is based on a Draconian understanding of the universe (quite sparated from Spekkio, THe God of War). The Draconian elements seem to be more geared to natural phenomena than the main forces of the universe.

The difference between a CT Element and a CC Element is like the difference between Gravity (a force in the universe) and an earthquake (a natural phenomena).

I don't really get a sense of duality with Shadow vs Heaven and Fire vs. Water. Shadow is somehow composed of the other three. A kind of primordial chaos.

Are there parallels? Sure. Magus uses Shadow and the character they intended to be Magus before dropping his storyline, Guile, uses the "Black" CC Element. Similarly, I think that indeed Crono would have been "White" instead of "Yellow" (though thats a matter of debate, I guess). Thematically, it makes more sense.

Crono's element is "Heaven", translated into "Lightning" here. His original magical attacks are consist of throwing lighting bolts (which, true to mythology, is a very heavenly association). He also has "Life" (ressurecting fallen allies, which is more of a game style element, in my opinion, because if any one of htem could have ressurected each other, why bother with the Time Egg to bring back Crono?) and Luminaire (sort of a "let there be light", big bang explosion).

In most ancient cosmologies, this connection makes perfect sense.

"Heaven" is not restricted to "lightning." Its a fundamental force of nature in the Chronoverse. Thus "heavenly" energy can be used to hurl lightning or to create explosions of light. Different physical manifestations of the same power (real world parallel: electricity can create lightning bolts, but also relates to electromagnetism).

The force "Heaven" governs a certain set of phenomena and can be used to create such. It would be interesting to see a more advanced magic user with the Heaven/Lightning element and all that they could possibly do. Something we can only ever guess at (unless they come out with Chrono Break and it has a lot more about this subject) is just how intricately the energies of the CT Elements can be combined and bent to one's will. The only real glimpse we ever get is Magus, whose use of Shadow is incredibly advanced. He's able to do a great many things (change Frog, somehow summon Lavos, etc) with his particular power, including manipulating the other elements.

Again, CC elements deal more directly with phenomena and less with the forces governing them. Creating lightning bolts, fire, bursts of light, water flows, etc. It doesn't take any special ability to use CC elements, contrary to CT Elements.

[justin3009]

I just realized that we're having a huge argument over whether his magic is Lightning or Heaven.  Can't we just say it's both considering it's related to both?..I think throwing in random Norse Mythology trying to explain something is getting a little out of hand ._.

[Thought]

I just realized that we're having a huge argument over whether his magic is Lightning or Heaven.  Can't we just say it's both considering it's related to both?..I think throwing in random Norse Mythology trying to explain something is getting a little out of hand ._.

Well said.

But... a cross-dressing, lightning throwing, resurrecting Thor just fits so perfectly

[V_Translanka]

The magical system of CC involves innate "colors." This is based on a Draconian understanding of the universe (quite sparated from Spekkio, THe God of War). The Draconian elements seem to be more geared to natural phenomena than the main forces of the universe.

Where do you get that part? I agree somewhat with the last statement in that quote though in that the CC Elements are created through the power spots that were found within El Nido. They are physical manifestations. I see them more as kinds of summoning and each person has a specific affinity to summon a certain type of Element using the Elements. Perhaps the Elements are some kind of refined magical ore from the inner earth (i.e. a gift from the Entity? or perhaps it has more to do with El Nido's special, artificial, futuristic, origin).

[ShoeMagus]

I could be wrong. But seeing as the CC Elements reflect the separated Dragon Gods, it seemed more of a Draconian thing than something related to how the universe works.

The CT Elements are the prime forces behind the universe, which if you manipulate can cause natural phenomena. The CC Elements seem to deal directly with natural phenomena and not the forces behind them.

[Chrono Master]

I just realized that we're having a huge argument over whether his magic is Lightning or Heaven.  Can't we just say it's both considering it's related to both?..I think throwing in random Norse Mythology trying to explain something is getting a little out of hand ._.

Actually Crono's Element IS "Heaven" the olny reason it reads as "Lightning" in the US game was because of the religious issues back then like every cartoon had to have a positive issue discussed. Like at the end of Capitan Planet I belive it was called. Because of the diverse cultures in the US, the game had to be translated in a way so it would not offend any of these cultures. Now there is no such rule because its now don't even play it if you don't like the issues discussed. I think it went this way because thewse types of translations were becoming tiresome and started to mess up the plot way too much.

I think this is is a case of the "big thinks." How can you think to tie in Greek and Norse Mythology with chi? At some point, we have to deal more directly with the Chronoverse and what we know if it, and less with the real world (though real world parallels can provide insight, ascribing Serge's attack to "Chi" when "Chi" is never mentioned in the game itself doesn't make sense).

Again, I think I must help emphasize a line between CT Elements and CC Elements. There are four CT Elements. They are the balancing forces of the Chronoverse. These are, to me, the pure form of magic. You are truly using magic when you're using these elements.

The magical system of CC involves innate "colors." This is based on a Draconian understanding of the universe (quite sparated from Spekkio, THe God of War). The Draconian elements seem to be more geared to natural phenomena than the main forces of the universe.

The difference between a CT Element and a CC Element is like the difference between Gravity (a force in the universe) and an earthquake (a natural phenomena).

I don't really get a sense of duality with Shadow vs Heaven and Fire vs. Water. Shadow is somehow composed of the other three. A kind of primordial chaos.

Are there parallels? Sure. Magus uses Shadow and the character they intended to be Magus before dropping his storyline, Guile, uses the "Black" CC Element. Similarly, I think that indeed Crono would have been "White" instead of "Yellow" (though thats a matter of debate, I guess). Thematically, it makes more sense.

Crono's element is "Heaven", translated into "Lightning" here. His original magical attacks are consist of throwing lighting bolts (which, true to mythology, is a very heavenly association). He also has "Life" (ressurecting fallen allies, which is more of a game style element, in my opinion, because if any one of htem could have ressurected each other, why bother with the Time Egg to bring back Crono?) and Luminaire (sort of a "let there be light", big bang explosion).

In most ancient cosmologies, this connection makes perfect sense.

"Heaven" is not restricted to "lightning." Its a fundamental force of nature in the Chronoverse. Thus "heavenly" energy can be used to hurl lightning or to create explosions of light. Different physical manifestations of the same power (real world parallel: electricity can create lightning bolts, but also relates to electromagnetism).

The force "Heaven" governs a certain set of phenomena and can be used to create such. It would be interesting to see a more advanced magic user with the Heaven/Lightning element and all that they could possibly do. Something we can only ever guess at (unless they come out with Chrono Break and it has a lot more about this subject) is just how intricately the energies of the CT Elements can be combined and bent to one's will. The only real glimpse we ever get is Magus, whose use of Shadow is incredibly advanced. He's able to do a great many things (change Frog, somehow summon Lavos, etc) with his particular power, including manipulating the other elements.

Again, CC elements deal more directly with phenomena and less with the forces governing them. Creating lightning bolts, fire, bursts of light, water flows, etc. It doesn't take any special ability to use CC elements, contrary to CT Elements.

i agree with you in some aspects but I think that the Tech.  in CC was not of the same properties as the first.

In CT, the Japaneese version discribed it as "The ultimate Holy atttack."  While in CC it was "Unleash a burst of chi energy" or somthing like that.  What I am saying is that  Serge's versoin of the attack might be a "extreemly" weakend down version to the point where the there is none of the Governing forces involved, but to an extent there was, If you remember F.A.T.E. controlled the people of Elnido. but lost track of serge. I think olny when this happened that serge was able to grasp a few aspects of the governing Forces and olny create an attack similar to the true form ( Crono's Version). Chi is an body energy which seeing as how F.A.T.E. controlled the people he was able to surpress the peoples Chi. Serge used the energy in his body to create a similar attack to Crono's attack.

However with Crono's attack contains all the nuts and bolts for the True Luminare. I belive Crono had all the aspects dowm such as being able too control the Governing Forces of the Heaven element, the Chi energy involved in the attack, and the aspect of Will.  Crono can control the Forces of Heaven, but think, he has to manipulate the element into it's purest form in a sphere-like shere-like shape, expand it, (I don't know how to describe the last part of the attack.) and like in the Lightning Tech. the attack there is little control and manipulation. You can tell because the attack looks jagged and bearely connected. there is a diffference in the power of these attacks as well as the construction. So Crono must have learned how to manipulate his element to into a more concentrated and powerful form. Crono had the forces of Heaven over serge. This factor is the main difference in the attack. Serge had the ability to learn how to use the Forces of Heaven but could not because he had no one to teach him how to manipulate it properly. Therfore Crono's Version was way more powerful.

But With Serge's Version missing key factors, his Luminare could be classified as an entirely different attack altogether.

[V_Translanka]

Was it simply "Heaven"...? I thought it was more 'heavenly', as in 'from the heavens', 'from heaven' or something, which makes the most sense...

As for the rest of it...

Strength of the heart. Magic's the heart's strength, power.

From this quote, it seems as though CT's Magic really is more of an inner power, like chi...

[placidchap]

There is nothing wrong with Captain Planet and positive messages!  The power is yours!  If only more shows were like that.

[Chrono Master]

There is nothing wrong with Captain Planet and positive messages!  The power is yours!  If only more shows were like that.

I really could not think of any thing else at the time. Another cartoon that features those positive messages at the end of the show is Sonic The hedgehog. Well one of them at least. You can see a parody of one on YouTube. By the way I never said any thing was wrong with capitan Planet and positive messages. I was just giving an example on how our government had to have every thing viewable for everyone. It just happens that a man having an magical element called "Heaven" would not fit in with with being in that catagory because of religous issues. I'm just glad that these things have changed, that's all. No games will ever have to suffer an awkward translation that the fans have to fix. So I have nothing against Capitan Planet.