Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion

[evirus]

do we even need to invoke such things as the entity? the only thing that realy solidly points to such a thing as the entity was lucca's statment, surely a long time ago lightning was explained by "god did it" but after much study we found that the explination is much more solid and reproducable then the "god" factor


~~ conservation of time~~~


that being said obviously i dont quite understand what you can mean by entity-gate, i suppose what you mean is a "perminant" gate(in the terms that the gates work independantly of anyone's control)

that being said i will agree that the gates the party used and the "distortation" at magus's castle which was thought of as a gate can be different in ways that can negate the conservation of time therom, the magus castle incident and the ocean palace incident share one thing in commen, they involve "temprary" gates made by some agent weather accidently or purposfuly. prehaps it takes energy to power the gates, and the "perminant" gates although also taking energy are left with "its own source of energy" and the energy taken to accomadate more then 3 life-forms means that the gate itself would compensate by sending the beings to a spot on a "blank timeline"(the end of time) this would mean  that "gasper's gate" was one "under powered" temprary gate anomalie prehaps a resualt of the massive amounts of energy involved with the ocean palace incident.

~~ changes in time ~~

we see in chrono trigger three events that call this into question. so i will regard the three accordingly in the order that they are revealed during the plot

---event one: marle's dissappearence; here we obvously see the effects of time travel causing the being's existance to be called into question if the grand father paradox remains true then at the end marle must exist(she is the reason crono and herself went back in time)

if the existance can not be throwen into question by the paradox then there must be some explination for this event. i present to the forum my buffer theory. prehaps marle's dissappearence is only the first stage of her existance being called into question. allowing the beings in the present time as well as fellow travelers to alter events to the point that the existance is no longer in question(in this case marle taking the place of her mother before she is born) we know that the true queen is still alive and we know that if marle's existance is in question the queen at the present chances will die if something is not done. heres where the buffer theory is fleshed out: if the queen dies during your stay in 600AD "true-time"(by defination: the passage from one event to the another) would "snap back agenst itself" resualting in the only foreseeable way to prevent the paradox eraseing the recent events causing a "rewind" to the nearest event that dosnt throw marle's existance into question

---event two: ocean palace incident; the main theme of this event as it relates to time is the appearence of the black omen in all era's after the events in ocean palace. my own views on this is that either the party or magus caused such a change in the era that lead up to the forming of the black omen, prehaps it was the energy exchange during the fight with lovas that in some way effected the mammon mechine, which was made to draw energy from lovas. or the events on mt. woe, or even interaction between the prohet(magus in desguise) and the upper class of zeal. these enteractions don't throw the existance of any individual into question, crono is killed he is not removed from existance through "the breaking of ancestral chains" there fore the grandfather paradox's most disasterous parts are not expearenced

--- event three: lessons of shareing; here we see the secound most questionable event regarding the ability to change the past, again i call on my buffer theory and say so long as the changed events dont drasticly alter the future to the point where the existance of a person is called into question , or the reworking of future eras to an extreme degree (effecting a majority of the beings) the "buffer" between the traveler and events from his orignal time, will hold

~~~~~~ time travel destination~~~~~

my explination dosn't rely on any complex ideas of flowing time but rather simple math, the gates as well as the epoch sent the player back and foward through time only to arrive at the same realtive time that they started their travel through the gate, meaning that you dont show up and meet the cave girl again for the first time and you certainly dont meet yourself. what if the gates and the epoch is vague in its destinations, as i type its 9:30AM if i had a time mechine and desided to travel back in time exactly 24 hours(-00:24:00:00) and look at a clock in that time it would still be 9:30AM, what if the gates simply send the users back a number of years, for example the first gate you encounter(destination 600ad) sends you back 400 years it would still be the same month day hour minute, just a different year


~~~relativistic time flow~~~~
im not entirely sure where your going with this nor what questions about it arise from CT+CC

~~~discarded timelines~~~~

i thought the reason for the dead sea reflecting the ruined future in the off shoot deminsion(serge lives) was because crono lived and died before the deminsional split there fore he wasnt copied, and he only knew about one deminsion's future and saved that one.

anyway timelines are discarded when their entire existance is nullified(anti-serge deminsion's ruined future for example)


ill comment more later im already late for class  

[SilentMartyr]

Who said the gate's creation was a conscious effort on Lavos' part? The way I see it, Magus originall summoned up some of Lavos' energy to form a gate to his dimension, and Crono's interference caused the gate creation to be incomplete, causing it to be a wild-card gate that warped randomly.

It is obvious that Lavos was present while the gate was forming. You clearly hear Lavos' cry when everyone is sucked into the gate. I see it more as Magus manipulated Lavos's energy to awaken him, like what had occured at the Ocean Palace but to a much smaller degree of energy manipulation. Hence why only the castle was destroyed. It doesn't make sense that an incomplete spell would cause a larger, stronger, incosistent gate than the complete spell was intended for (according to you).

On that same notion, can you explain why they were separated in the manner they were? I doubt that the spell would differentiate between enemies, especially since it would have been designed for one person and not four.

Touche on your second paragraph, I forgot about the Dead Sea.

Crono and co are the ones themselves who's destinies were changed.

What? The whole point of the game was that the planet's destiny of death was changed, not the groups destiny.


If you can tell me why each side of the battle was sent to thier respective places I might believe your theory.

[Zaperking]

Crono and co are the ones themselves who's destinies were changed.

What? The whole point of the game was that the planet's destiny of death was changed, not the groups destiny.


If you can tell me why each side of the battle was sent to thier respective places I might believe your theory.

Whatever happened in the original timeline DID NOT happen again to Crono and co. If your going to say that the entity created the gate at the fair, then you're agreeing that it changed their destinies to save it's own.
Otherwise, the pendant did truely react with the telepod, and that in the original timeline, Marle might not have escaped to go to the fair simply.

[Mystik3eb]

My belief is something like this: each "existence", "universe" or whatever is watched over by a being, in Chrono's case the "Entity", who watch over it as it progresses. They can see all and can influence things inside the timeline. Since Chrono's world was doomed to destruction because of Lavos arriving, the Entity decided to have some fun and watch some humans struggle against an immense foe, and opened the means to travel in time through gates. By doing this, he had something to heat up some popcorn for, and saved the world at the same time. The story only got more interesting when Lavos pulled Chronopolis out of the new future to overcome the Time Travelers. So the Entity pulled Dinopolis out of a discarded timeline to counter Lavos. Chronopolis won, to the Entity's dismay, but Chronopolis didn't stay in control of Lavos, and the future remained unchanged.

Until, unbeknownst to him, Schala merged with the defeated Lavos in the DBT right behind his back to form the TD, and was working itself up to reach enough power to hopefully consume all timelines and dimensions, present and discarded, and the entire universe. The Entity didn't worry about it though, because he could see Belthasar running around, changing all these different things throughout time to bring about the coming of Serge, the arbiter, to bring destruction to the crazy, mind-controlled Omnidragon, and then defeat Lavos for good while freeing the innocent Schala.

Either that, or the Planet really is the Entity...or there is no Entity.

But you making up all this stuff about the Entity, Zaper, is...bah. If there was an Entity, it wouldn't be a mere human. It would have to be something with power akin to Lavos. At least much more than any human posesses.

[Zaperking]

But you making up all this stuff about the Entity, Zaper, is...bah. If there was an Entity, it wouldn't be a mere human. It would have to be something with power akin to Lavos. At least much more than any human posesses.

What stuff?

If there is an entity, it's higher than the planet and is watching over the planet, like safe guarding it so it can "dream" and unconsciously change time. And then at the same time, if it's dreaming, and as the fairies said that it's weeping, then there's also the physical side of the planet which would have to be different from the spiritual being that was going to die along with the physical.

[evirus]

But you making up all this stuff about the Entity, Zaper, is...bah. If there was an Entity, it wouldn't be a mere human. It would have to be something with power akin to Lavos. At least much more than any human posesses.

What stuff?

If there is an entity, it's higher than the planet and is watching over the planet, like safe guarding it so it can "dream" and unconsciously change time. And then at the same time, if it's dreaming, and as the fairies said that it's weeping, then there's also the physical side of the planet which would have to be different from the spiritual being that was going to die along with the physical.

is it at all possable that what lucca said(which is the only hint at the entity what so ever) was false? is it possable that she was just thinking out loud with nothing to back it up? if its even 1% possability means that we cant boil every oditityin the story line down to "the entity did it" besides, ive devloped explination's that are "entity free" why not read those and tell me what you think

[SilentMartyr]

But you making up all this stuff about the Entity, Zaper, is...bah. If there was an Entity, it wouldn't be a mere human. It would have to be something with power akin to Lavos. At least much more than any human posesses.

What stuff?

If there is an entity, it's higher than the planet and is watching over the planet, like safe guarding it so it can "dream" and unconsciously change time. And then at the same time, if it's dreaming, and as the fairies said that it's weeping, then there's also the physical side of the planet which would have to be different from the spiritual being that was going to die along with the physical.

is it at all possable that what lucca said(which is the only hint at the entity what so ever) was false? is it possable that she was just thinking out loud with nothing to back it up? if its even 1% possability means that we cant boil every oditityin the story line down to "the entity did it" besides, ive devloped explination's that are "entity free" why not read those and tell me what you think

If you say that one thing stated in the game is false (that isn't disproven later) then you can say anything said in the game is false. I could come up with some wild theories if I ignored parts of the script.

Whatever happened in the original timeline DID NOT happen again to Crono and co. If your going to say that the entity created the gate at the fair, then you're agreeing that it changed their destinies to save it's own.

Right, but what I am saing is that the Entity's destiny was the one being changed the most.

[Zaperking]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

[evirus]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

well i take the non entity approach. lets suppose that the gates are infact shallow points in "space/time"(much like how the underside of your wrist is a shallow point in your skin) caused by massive amounts of energy being released, of course one the three specific events of lovas can cause this and there realy isnt any equal showen or stated to lovas's power so theres nothing to get in the way of that idea from what i remember. in summation im proposing the idea that the gates are created, unintentionaly and unknowingly, by lovas's energy releases

further more in regards to the oddity of "the first gate" prehaps
the interaction between the telepod and the materals of the pendent caused the opening of the shallow point. prehaps there is a fail safe on the telepod, or some law of physics that is byond us that explains why marle rematerialised, prehaps the de-materalized state needs the interaction of the telepods to be maintained, if that link was cut the parts would all come back together if that where the case then the enviroment inside the "gate" might be different to the point where the link is severed and "all the peices fall back into place".


again i invite anyone to share their comments on my theories weather they questions or attempts to debunk what i have proposed "let the victor be seen" id gladly accept any flaws that are found in this post or my other posts

[DBoruta]

How Changing the Past Affects Those Time Travelers whose Past Now No Longer Exists (Time Traveler's Immunity; this needs to be revised for sure)
warmgun

Assume there is a man that by a time, X, has experienced a certain set of events, {E1, E2, E3, E4...E(inf)}. Assume an event, E4, occurs at a time Y. Suppose the man travels to a time T, where T<Y. If time is altered at a time A, where T<A<Y, so as to eliminate E4, the man remains exactly the same as though the time change at A never happened and the causal effects leading the man to time T remain.

Support:

warmgun: Crono takes the jerky to the Porre mayor of 600AD to make his 1000AD counterpart give up the sun stone. So Crono's past now reflows through the new timeline. Crono has no need to go to the past now to give the 600AD mayor the jerkey because his 1000AD descendent is now generous and gives him the sun stone. If Crono doesn't go back, the 600AD mayor won't get the jerkey. The grandfather paradox is conveniently brushed aside.

Crono defeats Lavos in 1999AD, making the future bright and happy. In this new timeline, Crono's past is now forced to reflow. The future he must warp to now is not derelict and ruined. So does he still find an Epoch just waiting for him there? There won't be one, so he can't do half the stuff he's supposed to in order to kill Lavos!

You can take this idea and apply it to nearly every single instance of changing time in the game!

Okay, I've been thinking about this, and I don't believe the definition for Time Traveler's Immunity above works at all.  It creates a paradox that in itself makes any time-travel related event in Chrono Trigger impossible.  

The downfall of the mindset of this approach to it is that it confines itself to 4-D time.  When 4-D time is made a definition of position like 3-D coordinates, which is what happens for the time travelers in Chrono Trigger (but as we see 4-D time still flows normally in other timelines), "time" still occurs for time travelers, but in a different way.  So, a new measurement of "time" is needed so that there can be a measurement of the flow of events in a manner that is chronological to the time traveler's perspective.

I believe that the Flow Principle and Time Error, both Leebot's description of it (he is the one who came up with it first) and my mathematical description of it, can explain Time Traveler's Immunity a lot better.

[SilentMartyr]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

No no, they never stated they were unsure of the Entities exisistance. No one agrued Robo's claim. Magus just questioned who the Entity was, not that it exists.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Umm...no. If the Entity was already dead then there wouldn't be a game to play. How do you know its sleeping? The Entity is never stated to be asleep at anytime in the game.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

What does 600 being the closest time period have to do with anything? And Marle dematierialized because of the telepod, and the same with Crono.

[evirus]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

No no, they never stated they were unsure of the Entities exisistance. No one agrued Robo's claim. Magus just questioned who the Entity was, not that it exists.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Umm...no. If the Entity was already dead then there wouldn't be a game to play. How do you know its sleeping? The Entity is never stated to be asleep at anytime in the game.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

What does 600 being the closest time period have to do with anything? And Marle dematierialized because of the telepod, and the same with Crono.

last comment first: correct, i went into further detail with the reason behind meteralization.

just because no one argued robo's claim dosn't mean its true by defualt. robo isn't all knowing (example is when he was told that he was defective)
and neither is anyone in the group. if i beleaved there was a giant diamond burried in my back yard the size of a fridge, would that make it so?

again i would like to express my thoughts that the pinning of explinations to the idea of an entity right off the bat is a disservice to the overall goal stated by zeality himself! we should only consider the role of the entity when all other theories have been proven to contradict what happens in the chrono story line. this proof of unilateral contradiction has yet to happen.

zeality, i move that we place this requirement on further discussion, in summation that the use of "entity interaction" only be considered after all theories have been proven false based on events in the chrono storyline

[Zaperking]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

No no, they never stated they were unsure of the Entities exisistance. No one agrued Robo's claim. Magus just questioned who the Entity was, not that it exists.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Umm...no. If the Entity was already dead then there wouldn't be a game to play. How do you know its sleeping? The Entity is never stated to be asleep at anytime in the game.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

What does 600 being the closest time period have to do with anything? And Marle dematierialized because of the telepod, and the same with Crono.

"On the verge of death" =.= And it is sleeping. If you're going to preach that the entitiy scene is valid and stuff, then remember that they were talking about a dying person having flashbacks before they die of what they could have changed and where.

Then in CC, it's "The planets dream". You can't expect a being that is dead far off in the future, on the verge of death in 2300AD to have enough power to consiously do all of this, otherwise it could have taken care of Lavos itself.

As for 600AD, it's the closest time to a Lavos involved time, duh. It's only 400 years before 1000AD, unline 999 years to 1999AD or 1300 years to 2300AD.

[SilentMartyr]

The thing was that the characters were unsure of the entitiy, so even they are doubting it. Also, in that case, I could take Magus' saying literally that he was a different person back in Zeal, and that is not unproven.

No no, they never stated they were unsure of the Entities exisistance. No one agrued Robo's claim. Magus just questioned who the Entity was, not that it exists.

Also, I don't really have a side with the entitiy. I just don't like it when people make it fact that all gates are made by the entitiy, or the entitiy did it. THE ENTITY IS DEAD! On the verge of death, gonig to die! All that is happening is that it's sleeping, and whilst the images roll past its mind, that is what maybe caused a rift in timespace, kind of like a "what if i did this instead" thing where the gates could be produced there.

Umm...no. If the Entity was already dead then there wouldn't be a game to play. How do you know its sleeping? The Entity is never stated to be asleep at anytime in the game.

Besides, 600AD is the closest time with something to do with Lavos. Also, that gate wasn't normal since not only did Marle materialise, but she was sucked into the gate, and the gate re materialised her. So it wasn't just the telepod. Or the pendant.

What does 600 being the closest time period have to do with anything? And Marle dematierialized because of the telepod, and the same with Crono.

last comment first: correct, i went into further detail with the reason behind meteralization.

just because no one argued robo's claim dosn't mean its true by defualt. robo isn't all knowing (example is when he was told that he was defective)
and neither is anyone in the group. if i beleaved there was a giant diamond burried in my back yard the size of a fridge, would that make it so?

again i would like to express my thoughts that the pinning of explinations to the idea of an entity right off the bat is a disservice to the overall goal stated by zeality himself! we should only consider the role of the entity when all other theories have been proven to contradict what happens in the chrono story line. this proof of unilateral contradiction has yet to happen.

zeality, i move that we place this requirement on further discussion, in summation that the use of "entity interaction" only be considered after all theories have been proven false based on events in the chrono storyline

I never stated that since no one refuted Robo's claim that it was true. If you read what Zaper wrote he said that the group was unsure of the Entity, which is untrue. And plus, even if you skip Fiona's Forest sidequest Lucca still mentions an Entity during the ending.

THE ENTITY IS NOT A COP OUT! How hard is it to just accept the fact that there is an Entity in the Chronoverse? I have no understanding as to why you (and others) think that if the Entity is involved in the explination that is somehow falsifies whatever claim that is trying to be made. I mean c'mon in Cross the last chapter title states that the planets dream is not over (I don't remember the exact wording, I'm sure someone will say it if you ask). Why would the planet dream?? Maybe because it has an Entity watching over it.

Just because you don't like the explination doesn't mean it's not right.

[evirus]

the reason why i do not like "the entity did it" idea is that, at its core, there can be no arguement about it because it can be said that the entity can do almost everything that is not understood, this is why i see such ideas as counter productive to what we are trying to do here... i have laid down an explination to how the first gate was opened, to the reasons why marle dissappeared, to why the characters are able to activly effect time that would seemingly go agenst the grandfather paradox. these explinations have, in the past, been boild down to the simple "the entity did it" isn't more valueable to try and find non-theistic answeres first? and if no answeres can be fitted into the workings of the chrono timelines i would gladly accept the theistic answere but i have yet to see any arguements agenst non theistic answeres.  from what i understand the purpose of this topic is to nail down the uncertain parts of the game by giving ideas and having people argue for or agenst them, we cant nail ideas down if someone comes up and says "why are you so agenst my idea?" they rarely go byond the simple "its the workings of the entity" and then pointing to obscure parts of the script that only reflect that a person, who has the capacity to be wrong, said it

as for "the planets dream is not yet over" (ive played chrono cross a few months ago and i remember basicly what your talking about) it could be said that this might be a figure of speech, a poets use of words to make things more... interesting then just saying "too be continued, or the end?" one of the central similarities as far as setting of the two games is that both are on the same planet.


prehaps im being a little ruthless, but my previous statement stands, if your so sure about the entity idea, then you should return the favor and try to find fallacies(contradictions and errors) in other non entity ideas

the only reason i am unable to find fallacies in entity ideas is because it would involve redefining what the entity is (strawman fallacy: making a weak point only to knock it down)