Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion

[SilentMartyr]

The fact that one of one of Crosses themes is the planet's implied hatred of the humans and love for the Dragonians/Demi-humans/Dwarves/Faries (pick one) makes it hard to argue that it's merely a figure of speech.

See but you are still thinking like the explination is the last resort. Like we ran out of ideas and just decided that the Entity was good enough for now. That is not the case. As an engineer I look at every possible outcome and angle, and the Entity makes the most logical argument. Nothing else even comes remotely close in terms of logic. The other arguments are either pulling stuff for thin air or taking a single line and disceting it so many times you forget what the point of the argument originally was.

[evirus]

The fact that one of one of Crosses themes is the planet's implied hatred of the humans and love for the Dragonians/Demi-humans/Dwarves/Faries (pick one) makes it hard to argue that it's merely a figure of speech.

See but you are still thinking like the explination is the last resort. Like we ran out of ideas and just decided that the Entity was good enough for now. That is not the case. As an engineer I look at every possible outcome and angle, and the Entity makes the most logical argument. Nothing else even comes remotely close in terms of logic. The other arguments are either pulling stuff for thin air or taking a single line and disceting it so many times you forget what the point of the argument originally was.

i'll agree with you that one of the theme's of chrono cross is a "gaia's intervention towards man"(gaia being the personafication of nature).

you state that most of the other theories have flaws, well if that is the case i would be more then happy, as i stated before, to see you discuss those flaws. for example, what flaws do you see in my first theory(http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?p=41814#41814) ?

[SilentMartyr]

Okay, I'll bite. I was actually going to comment on those earlier, but when this Entity business gets going I easily get sidetracked (I feel like the president of the Entity did it club).

that being said i will agree that the gates the party used and the "distortation" at magus's castle which was thought of as a gate can be different in ways that can negate the conservation of time therom, the magus castle incident and the ocean palace incident share one thing in commen, they involve "temprary" gates made by some agent weather accidently or purposfuly. prehaps it takes energy to power the gates, and the "perminant" gates although also taking energy are left with "its own source of energy" and the energy taken to accomadate more then 3 life-forms means that the gate itself would compensate by sending the beings to a spot on a "blank timeline"(the end of time) this would mean that "gasper's gate" was one "under powered" temprary gate anomalie prehaps a resualt of the massive amounts of energy involved with the ocean palace incident.

First off, the Ocean Palace gates are permanent, just not both ways. All four of those gates remain...Oh wait. That makes so much more sense now!!

Sorry, had a breaktrough on the argument for my case. Anyways, all four gates remained after the incident. Also, the Ocean Palace gates were separate from each other, there were four of them. While in Magus's castle it was one huge gate.

if the existance can not be throwen into question by the paradox then there must be some explination for this event. i present to the forum my buffer theory. prehaps marle's dissappearence is only the first stage of her existance being called into question. allowing the beings in the present time as well as fellow travelers to alter events to the point that the existance is no longer in question(in this case marle taking the place of her mother before she is born) we know that the true queen is still alive and we know that if marle's existance is in question the queen at the present chances will die if something is not done. heres where the buffer theory is fleshed out: if the queen dies during your stay in 600AD "true-time"(by defination: the passage from one event to the another) would "snap back agenst itself" resualting in the only foreseeable way to prevent the paradox eraseing the recent events causing a "rewind" to the nearest event that dosnt throw marle's existance into question

This is all well and good but it contradicts every other instance of change due to time travel. Technically the Black Omen won't exist, since the group will have destroyed Lavos and made it's existance nill, but it doesn't phase in and out. The people in any era are not surprised at all that it is there, and talk about it like it has been there since they were born.

ocean palace incident; the main theme of this event as it relates to time is the appearence of the black omen in all era's after the events in ocean palace. my own views on this is that either the party or magus caused such a change in the era that lead up to the forming of the black omen, prehaps it was the energy exchange during the fight with lovas that in some way effected the mammon mechine, which was made to draw energy from lovas. or the events on mt. woe, or even interaction between the prohet(magus in desguise) and the upper class of zeal. these enteractions don't throw the existance of any individual into question, crono is killed he is not removed from existance through "the breaking of ancestral chains" there fore the grandfather paradox's most disasterous parts are not expearenced

The reason it was formed was because the Queen was not rescued from the Ocean Palace. It is assumed that in the original timeline Scahla used the last of her pendants power to teleport her and her mother out of there instead of the group. This is backed because if it didn't happen then the pendant would never have been recovered, since it would have been trapped in the pocket dimension along with Lavos.

There you go. I await your rebuttle, if there is any.

[evirus]

are you saying that the gates that we see in the game where orignaly formed in the ocean palace incident? i myself have never thought about that idea, but this only accounts for the 100ad gate in the eastern contenant, and one of the two gates in the future, the gate in 600ad  appears to be in a different location then where janus ended up, as we know of none of the characters where sent to the prehistoric era... nevermind im rambeling i think... anyways you say that their are four gates created during the incident, there are a total of 9 gates to choose from at the end of time... how would you explain the aditional 5? (although i will admit the four gates being a resualt of ocean palace incident are fairly possable and i have no problem with excepting that as the origins of those gates)

what i ment by the whole buffer theory is that the time travelers are capable of distinguishing between the history that they "know" and the new history that is being formed by their actions so long as their existance or major changes take place they are "immune" to what they change. flimsy? maybe, but it is an explination as to how the party is able to change the past.

as far as the killing of lovas is concerned the existance of the black oman only comes into question when you choose one of the "non standard" endings, and from what i remember with out going through the black omen you can only kill lovas in ocean palace, the bucket, and the epoch, right?  the only action that brings the existance of the black omen into question is in the ocean palace, and this is before the actions of crono cause the existance of the black omen. killing lovas in 1999ad would not cause the black omen to not exist it would simply sever the power source assuming its lovas the omen draws its power from. so the black omen would simply crash to the ground.

when taking the black omen route you go through the omen then the queen wakes lovas, or sends the omen too lovas, i dont see how this calls the omens existance into question

now the question about the pendent, in CT one of the people in zeal make a comment that marle's pendent looks like schala's pendent, in CC does it specificaly say that the pendent given to kid is schala's?(i dont remember)

[DBoruta]

THE ENTITY IS NOT A COP OUT! How hard is it to just accept the fact that there is an Entity in the Chronoverse? I have no understanding as to why you (and others) think that if the Entity is involved in the explination that is somehow falsifies whatever claim that is trying to be made. I mean c'mon in Cross the last chapter title states that the planets dream is not over (I don't remember the exact wording, I'm sure someone will say it if you ask). Why would the planet dream?? Maybe because it has an Entity watching over it.

Ok, a few things here (this isn't just directed at SilentMartyr either) are annoying me. I know I'm not a mod and I'm not trying to play the role of being a mod either, but this constant bickering about whether or not there is an entity in this thread is getting on my nerves.  Seriously, this thread is about time and dimensional travel, not about the Entity.  The Entity may play a role in time travel, but in my opinion this should not be the main topic of a thread of this nature.  

Furthermore, SilentMartyr and Evirus, there isn't enough proof either way to undoubtedly determine if there was an "Entity" that had a direct effect on the events of Chrono Trigger or not.  If there was an Entity, it could have been a "someone" or a "something" just as was speculated by Lucca before the first trip back to 1000 A.D. and was speculated at the campfire scene.  Personally, I think there was a "someone" or "something" that had an effect on time travel in Chrono Trigger (I'm inferring that the comment about others besides Evirus thinking that if the Entity is in an explanation that it can't be true is partially directed at me.  While I hate using the Entity as an answer when there's no other explanation available due to lack of in-game information, it doesn't mean I hate the idea that there could be an Entity.), but I'm not sure who or what it is.  It could be the   planet, or it could be someone or something else.  Either way, if there is an Entity, it would be logical to say that the Entity still needs to follow the physical laws of the Chrono universe as long as it actually exists inside the universe.  Well, that is unless it is a god.  If it is a god-like thing, then it exists outside of the Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel and should have only a small mention in this discussion.  

What I'm interested in, and what I think others who were in this discussion before it turned into a huge argument over the existence of the Entity, is what governs the principles of time and dimensional travel, as in what are the physical properties of these phenomena in the Chrono universe, and just how do the effects caused by it happen.  So, can we please get back on topic and have any more bickering over the Entity's existence in another thread?

[ZeaLitY]

The Gates are active and tangible; if the Entity created them, then it indeed has a direct role in the affairs of man in the Chrono series. The only possible exit from assigning an Entity to their creation is to hold that Lavos inadvertantly made them through his temporal disruptions, but since Crono and his group discount that possibility directly within the game, it is unlikely.

[DBoruta]

Except, we have proof that other beings besides the Entity can disrupt space-time, namely Lavos.  The Guru of Time's and Guru of Reason's experiments on time are also another example of space-time disruption and the fact that gates can be created by something other than the Entity.  I'm not trying to discount that there could be an Entity, but it's a situation like this: We have time and dimensional travel, therefore we have principles that govern it like principles that govern everything in nature.  Is the Entity's identity or existence really essential when observing natural phenomena?  No, not really.  This is because the phenomena is still there and still has principles that govern it inside of nature.  When we're discussing where the phenemona ultimately comes from, then I see the point of knowing whether or not the Entity exists.  At this point, and looking at the topics you want to discuss, Zeality, I don't see why there should be such an emphasis being put on the Entity's existence in this thread.

[ZeaLitY]

Right. Well, what I should have said was, if the Gurus are doing this, then they are the Entity. The Entity label does not implicitly mean "god" or divine being, just a person or figure capable of influencing spacetime by creating Gates or setting up events to dispatch Lavos and aid the time travelers. The planet often gets this title, but some cases can be made for others, especially Gaspar. Just want to clarify the term. I have no idea what the debate going on actually is right now in this thread, since I'm attending to all the other threads in my massive analysis kickass fury.

[DBoruta]

Right - I'm with you there with the Entity label.  When you talk about the Entity, I usually see you referring to it as the planet, so I made the assumption you were doing the same in this case as well.  In any matter, when considering the principles that govern time and dimensional travel, I don't believe that the identity or existence of said Entity (whoever or whatever it may be) needs to be the main focus of debate.  Until the whole "Does the Entity exist?" discussion took over this thread, there was discussion on things such as Conservation of Time, Time Error, and the Flow Principle.  I was under the impression that they were to be the main points of discussion for this thread.

[evirus]

...... ok ill accept the decisions handed down, prehaps i was unfair or even ruthless in my reasoning. much like what DBourta was saying id rather hold off on the idea of an entity with no explination, prehaps i shot my self in the leg by not fallowing the explination part of my thoughts. i just hope you all can forgive me.

at anycase what zeality is saying if im correct, that the entity is a vague term in terms of identity, much like the difference between the chrono trigger in CT and CC. ill accept that

after doing some research on the topic(game faq's script) robo says

after 400 years of experience, i have come to think that lovas may not be responsible for the gates

there are a few ways to take this.... either A you accept the line as being 100% true. B robo's ideas about the entity was brought about by the 400 years of seeing humans live and die(no truth). C this is robo's unbiased opinion on the matter(partal truth)

i myself settle with B, a reflection of robo witnessing mortality for 400 years.

at any case how far should we take the word "responsible" should we take it to mean "knowingly caused" or just "caused"?

[ZeaLitY]

Here is my revision of the nature of the universe. The Relevant Dimensions theory was pretty unnecessary.

Stability through Observation

There are countless dimensions and universes; the world is only stabilized from the viewpoint of the observer. For the Chrono series, the events take place in one dimension (two in Chrono Cross, one being an offshoot of another), called the Keystone Dimension, and later Home and Another Worlds. Dimensions run parallel to one another, never touching save through two exceptions. These includes the Missing Piece Observation and the Omnidimensional Existence Possibility notations. In the first case, an element from one dimension can travel to another if one of the dimensions is split directly from the other one. Concerning the second, certain entities may be aware of more than one dimension. At any rate, dimensions are closed universes and cannot be traversed normally. Each dimension contains its own history, called a timeline, which can be rewritten by time travelers; the discarded timeline would be sent to a Darkness Beyond Time in this scenario.

[evirus]

simple, direct, nothing disagreeable that i can find with that

[DBoruta]

There are countless dimensions and universes

I would rephrase that to be "There is the possibility for a countless number of dimensions to exist".  Saying dimensions and universes is redundant.    

the world is only stabilized from the viewpoint of the observer.

I know you're using relativity here to explain the existence within each dimension, but if you could go a little more in-depth with that, that would be great.

[Mystik3eb]

I'm gonna go crazy if I see "lovas" one more time...

Has my Base Timeline been completely ignored?

As for this Entity jibber-jabber, I think we have to accept the fact that the existence and identity of the Entity cannot just be tossed aside. The gates closed after CT was done. No more time travel, aside from Epoch travel. Obviously, something was the cause of those gates. Otherwise, we'd have to worry about figuring out why the gates went away.

[evirus]

I'm gonna go crazy if I see "lovas" one more time...

Has my Base Timeline been completely ignored?

As for this Entity jibber-jabber, I think we have to accept the fact that the existence and identity of the Entity cannot just be tossed aside. The gates closed after CT was done. No more time travel, aside from Epoch travel. Obviously, something was the cause of those gates. Otherwise, we'd have to worry about figuring out why the gates went away.

....... true, true i havent thought about that