Author Topic: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion  (Read 14583 times)

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2006, 03:31:27 pm »
I can't go more in-depth for lack of scientific education. Someone else will have to attempt that.

I replied in the real Base Timeline thread. There's one inquiry we need to resolve -- whether all Time Error locations reside on a "base timeline" or if they are still separate from each other.

evirus

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2006, 11:08:37 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I can't go more in-depth for lack of scientific education. Someone else will have to attempt that.

I replied in the real Base Timeline thread. There's one inquiry we need to resolve -- whether all Time Error locations reside on a "base timeline" or if they are still separate from each other.


prehaps a quick, or rather mild, read on wikipedia will give you some stuff to work with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

AuraTwilight

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2006, 05:18:13 pm »
We've all seen that article. It doesn't contribute anything.

evirus

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2006, 06:18:26 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
We've all seen that article. It doesn't contribute anything.
just a suggestion

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 12:44:23 am »
Note: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=409 may be useful for Time definition

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2006, 12:03:58 am »
Note to self: include this analogy by Talah Rama:

I know this is lame, but a good analogy is MS Paint. Have a blank picture, save it. This is timeline A. Now, draw a spot on it. That's timeline B. Now erase that spot. While it looks exactly like the first one (timeline A), it's still timeline C. As proof, exit MS Paint. It will ask if you want to save the changes (even though it looks exactly the same).

Sentenal

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2006, 12:30:06 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Here is my revision of the nature of the universe. The Relevant Dimensions theory was pretty unnecessary.

Stability through Observation

There are countless dimensions and universes; the world is only stabilized from the viewpoint of the observer. For the Chrono series, the events take place in one dimension (two in Chrono Cross, one being an offshoot of another), called the Keystone Dimension, and later Home and Another Worlds. Dimensions run parallel to one another, never touching save through two exceptions. These includes the Missing Piece Observation and the Omnidimensional Existence Possibility notations. In the first case, an element from one dimension can travel to another if one of the dimensions is split directly from the other one. Concerning the second, certain entities may be aware of more than one dimension. At any rate, dimensions are closed universes and cannot be traversed normally. Each dimension contains its own history, called a timeline, which can be rewritten by time travelers; the discarded timeline would be sent to a Darkness Beyond Time in this scenario.

I'll jump into this one now.  I've posted a version of this elsewhere, but I feel its relavant to this discussion to post it here.

I dispute that there are "countless dimensions and universes".  We know of 3 (possible more, if you count Radical Dreamers) dimensions:  Home, Another, and Reptite.  We know that Another is considered the original universe, and Home split off from it.  We don't know what factored into the Reptite Dimension, other than its tied to Lavos' not falling to the Earth.

Miguel said this: "History is composed of choices and divergences. Each choice you make creates a new world and brings forth a new future. But at the same time, you're eliminating a different future with the choices you didn't make."  Take the word History, and swap it with Timeline(s).

If there are "countless dimensions and universes", then these universes should be created in the same way as Home was created.  As in, there being a split between Dimensions, where one thing happend in Dimenision X, and another thing happening in Dimension Y.  Yet what Miguel said about Timelines completely refutes that.  That leads me to the conclusion Dimensional Creations are special cases.  As to what those special cases is, I have no idea.  With one, it was the death of the Arbiter of the Flame.  I can only assume with the other dimensional creation, it was either the premature death of Lavos, or Lavos missing the Planet.

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2006, 12:42:10 am »
Note to self:

Time irregularities are at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=35

Mystik3eb

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2006, 05:44:19 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
I'll jump into this one now.  I've posted a version of this elsewhere, but I feel its relavant to this discussion to post it here.

I dispute that there are "countless dimensions and universes".  We know of 3 (possible more, if you count Radical Dreamers) dimensions:  Home, Another, and Reptite.  We know that Another is considered the original universe, and Home split off from it.  We don't know what factored into the Reptite Dimension, other than its tied to Lavos' not falling to the Earth.

Miguel said this: "History is composed of choices and divergences. Each choice you make creates a new world and brings forth a new future. But at the same time, you're eliminating a different future with the choices you didn't make."  Take the word History, and swap it with Timeline(s).

If there are "countless dimensions and universes", then these universes should be created in the same way as Home was created.  As in, there being a split between Dimensions, where one thing happend in Dimenision X, and another thing happening in Dimension Y.  Yet what Miguel said about Timelines completely refutes that.  That leads me to the conclusion Dimensional Creations are special cases.  As to what those special cases is, I have no idea.  With one, it was the death of the Arbiter of the Flame.  I can only assume with the other dimensional creation, it was either the premature death of Lavos, or Lavos missing the Planet.


As I stated in another thread, my theory is that all the possibile dimensions and timelines reside in the DBT. That there is only one, true, active timeline/dimension (except in Cross, because someone seriously fucked things up).

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2006, 01:39:33 pm »
Note to self: Apply some:

• What does it mean to “send” a partial timeline into the Darkness Beyond Time?
• What does it mean to “create” a partial timeline to replace the obliviated one?
• What is the reason this occurs and the mechanism by which it is effected?
• In terms of matter, energy, and structure, what becomes of the obliviated partial timeline?
• Likewise, what is the source of the matter and energy for the new, “created” partial timeline, and by what process is its structure assembled?
• What is the meaning of “X Prime”? Where does it come from if X is not on the timeline during the act of time travel which causes the creation of the Prime timeline?
• Is the process of partial timeline transformation instantaneous? If so, how is X Prime “created”? If not, how does a process wherein space-time is obliviated occur within that space-time? What are the mechanics?

Time Bastadr deals with atoms / mass

Material:

Quote from: Aitrus
When you travel back in time, time is altered. You weren't there the first time through. The history that you remember did not include you being there. So, when you travel back in time to time b, you've changed history merely by your presence. This is why timeline Y past point b is sent to the DBT, and a new timeline created. The original history does not exist any longer, and a new one is created. This isn't so much a matter of an entire universe being destroyed and a new one created, as it is the events of said universe being destroyed and a new set being made. Remember in Chrono Cross, seeing the timelines floating by in the bubbles while you battled the Time Devourer? Most likely, those weren't actual places you could have walked in, through, and around in the DBT, but were instead memories, thoughts, and records of those timelines. Only very rarely does actual matter get sent to the DBT, Lavos, Schala, and the Mammon Machine being few exceptions.

Think of it this way: Some lizards, as a defense mechanism, can shed their entire tails, and then slowly regrow them. So long as the lizard remains alive, it can regrow the tail; not exactly the same as before, but a tail is still a tail. This is similar to what happens with the universe according to this theory. When X goes from time A to time B, where B<A, Timeline Y is cut off at point B. However, the universe itself is still there, and it will regrow naturally, but it won't be the same as the original Timeline Y, but it will be close: Timeline Y'. If the material is trivial, or Entity X simply sits in the woods and speaks to no one during his stay in Time B, then Timeline Y' will be nearly identical to Y, possibly even indistinguishble. But it will still be different, because even if no one knew about it, you WERE there, something which most definitely did not occur in the original timeline.

The reasoning behind the destruction of entity X' due to the existance of X is not so much one mandated by theory as one mandated by fact: in CT, you never meet a counterpart of yourself or anyone else in your team. Therefore, any counterpart you would have in this new timeline must be destroyed or banished somehow when entity X returns to time A.


Quote from: GrayLensman
# Time travel does not necessarily affect the entire universe. Due to relativity, a time traveller will only affect the region of space within his future light-cone. For example, a time traveller's mass disturbs surrounding bodies through gravitational force, which propagates at light speed. After 400 years, only objects 400 light years away would be disturbed. (I guess I've just provided a mechanism for an "insignificant" time traveller to cause the state of the universe to be changed. )

# Also, the creation of a new timeline does not imply that the substance of the universe is sent to the DBT and recreated out of nothingness. The new timeline represents the new state of the future light cone of the time traveller which is disturbed by his physical presence. This new state is affected by gravity and the other physical forces. The original state of the universe is preserved as information in the DBT. Nothing is created from thin air.

Oatmeal1209

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2006, 02:17:44 pm »
Hey, I've been lurking around various Chrono series communities for about a year now.  I guess I finally feel like throwing in my opinions.  Anyway, on to what I have to say.
Concerning "Determining the Destination of Time Travel via Epoch and Time Gates", I like the way this theory sounds, but I do still have a bit of a gripe with it.  One of the main things that bothers me about that is that if a group were to introduce a new member (let's not specify whether or not this newly addressed person had used a gate before), how would the timegate know which timeline to choose to send the party to?  That's basically my only problem.  What if the timegate doesn't send a person to (for example,) 600 AD, but 400 years in the past relative to their current time, regardless of whether or not a person has already gone through a gate to said era?  In game, that would have been pretty confusing, to say the least.

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2006, 02:41:28 pm »
The axiom is going to be elaborated upon and rewritten in the new article, mainly because its conforms to Time Error. This is a sort of transcendental axis of time that exists in special areas, like the End of Time; it is called Time Error, and the article Beyond Time goes to great lengths to explain it.

However, the real issue at hand here is the Gates. The current theory is that the Gates really didn't exist once and for all once they were created, but sort of had a predetermined lifetime.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gates_%28Useful_Life_of%29

That page has more. This is a really vague answer, but hopefully you can find an answer.

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2006, 01:38:02 am »

SilentMartyr

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2006, 12:00:06 pm »
How come that line starts at 1000? Any specific reason?

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2006, 01:27:43 pm »
Not really.