Author Topic: Mammon Machine in the Black Omen  (Read 3874 times)

ZeaLitY

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« on: February 16, 2006, 07:41:27 pm »
By far, the strangest aspect of the Black Omen is the Mammon Machine's function there. Though the machine appears damaged on the outside, Crono and his crew are 'thrown' into the machine, where it appears to be in a pocket dimension and wholly intact.

Pocket Dimension Apparatus (Theory)

Zeality

Under the Pocket Dimension theory, the Mammon Machine actually dipped into Lavos's pocket dimension to tap his source. As a result, it had two interfaces; one for the outside world, and one for collecting energy from Lavos. After the Mammon Machine was removed and its link to Lavos cut, it still generated its own Pocket Dimension...field? Help me out here.

evirus

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 09:24:41 pm »
what about this, theres a worm hole inside the mammon mechine, linking its systems(most notably those responsable for collecting energy) to lavos, or in your explination lavos's pocket deminsion

(is the idea of lavos residing in a pocket dimension pretty much resolved to be true?)

DBoruta

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 10:30:12 pm »
This pocket dimension effect where the physical mammon machine is destroyed but another one remains intact in a pocket dimension (inside the Black Omen?) could be a result of the Ocean Palace disaster.  In the scene where the Mammon Machine goes haywire, it opens its own pocket dimension  briefly, followed by Lavos' appearance in that same dimension.  

Now, if we take into consideration that the Mammon Machine may have been operating by using the Frozen Flame, we essentially have the Frozen Flame opening a pocket dimension, dragging the Mammon Machine, or a projection of it, into the dimension with it.  A link is established with Lavos, and Lavos comes onto the scene.  Afterwards, the Black Omen forms, and the physical Mammon Machine is destroyed.  What about the projection and the Frozen Flame?  It very well could have been that the Frozen Flame resided inside of this projection of the Mammon Machine in the pocket dimension.  If we look at the Mammon Machine as it is encountered inside the pocket dimension in the Black Omen, we find that it is blue instead of gold.  This has always been interesting to me, and I feel there is some significance to it.  The only conclusion I can make, however, is that the Frozen Flame is inside of this pocket dimension that it created, and it resides inside of this projection of the Mammon Machine.  

Now, let's just assume for the moment that what I'm proposing is true.  This has some implications, namely, the real reason for the Ocean Palace disaster, and just how the Frozen Flame is recovered in the future.  

The Ocean Palace disaster now makes a little more sense if I think about it like this:  Zeal was using the Frozen Flame to extract energy from Lavos.  While Lavos may be getting drained of energy, it probably isn't the reason why Lavos controlled Queen Zeal and the Enlightened Ones.  If you notice, it was Queen Zeal, who was under Lavos' control, who decided to move the Mammon Machine closer to Lavos.  During the Ocean Palace disaster, Lavos makes its move to be reunited with the Frozen Flame.  When Crono & co. arrived, they unknowingly thwarted the attempt.  In both timelines, original and new, Lavos destroys Zeal.  The reasoning here is most likely still the same - to prevent Zeal from developing further and becoming a real threat to Lavos.  The reason the Black Omen appears in the new timeline is because Lavos' attempt to reunite with the Frozen Flame failed.  So, instead the Black Omen is a place that houses the Frozen Flame.  This makes sense and can explain the Omen's ability to transcend time.    

When the Black Omen is destroyed, it appears to half fall into the sea and half fall into a gate of sorts.  It's not really clear what happens other than that Crono&co.  somehow either survive or are sent to Lavos.  Either way, they encounter Lavos and the Omen is destroyed.  If we assume that the Frozen Flame was inside this projection of the Mammon Machine, it could have lost enough energy to stop sustaining a pocket dimension and return to space-time, where it may have fallen into the sea with the Black Omen.

DeweyisOverrated

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 06:30:22 pm »
Here's a point of interest that might add/change this theory:

You are looking at the "broken" or "worn-down" Mammon Machine.  Queen Zeal doesn't say anything about a pocket dimension, or another dimension, for that matter. Look carefully at this text.

Quote
QUEEN: Argh!
   My powers don't seem to work here!

   Wait! I'll simply toss you into the
   Mammon Machine!


Notice the INTO the MM.  This could change things.  Is the party actually now inside the physical structure of the Mammon Machine?  This could explain it altered appearance.  Of course, it wouldn't explain anything about size consistencies, etc.  But I thought it'd be worth pointing out.[/b]

AuraTwilight

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 09:12:42 pm »
I had a theory that Dreamstone develops a soul if it has extensive human contact (Masa, Mune, Doreen, or my old Pendant theory.) What if with all the Lavos Energy passing through it, the Mammon Machine developed it's own distinct entity, and Zeal threw the party into it's soul in a sort of astral projection?

DBoruta

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 09:55:51 pm »
Quote from: DeweyisOverrated
Notice the INTO the MM. This could change things. Is the party actually now inside the physical structure of the Mammon Machine? This could explain it altered appearance.


I had been thinking about this when I originally wrote about the Mammon Machine.  When Crono & co. are thrown "into" the Mammon Machine, they end up in a pocket dimension that looks very similar to Lavos'.  If anything, the broken down Mammon Machine might serve as an entrance to this pocket dimension.

Zaperking

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2006, 01:32:07 am »
Hmm, What I want to know is where this quote was and why the Queen can't use her powers, even though she later became all huge and omega :O

Mystik3eb

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2006, 04:23:06 am »
I'd like to see the retranslation of that line, meself. I personally believe it got put back together at that moment, and executed some strange effect that made the characters see the same PD environment.

CyberSarkany

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2006, 01:23:28 pm »
Where? It is at the end of the Black Omen after you fought her(the hallation+killer fireballs part)

DBoruta

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 05:07:00 pm »
This was after Crono & co. fought Queen Zeal and won the first time.  She decided to throw them "into" the Mammon Machine, thinking its power could be enough to stop them.  After they defeated the Mammon Machine and escaped from the pocket dimension they were thrown into, they ended up at the top of the Black Omen, where Zeal merged with the Omen to try to defeat them.

AuraTwilight

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 09:44:05 pm »
Where does it say anything with her "Merging" with the Black Omen? I always figured she forcefully evolved herself with her power from Lavos.

DBoruta

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2006, 10:25:04 pm »
Well, she's projecting herself (face and hands) through the Black Omen, so yeah, she did kinda merge with the Black Omen.

Zaperking

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 12:36:07 am »
Quote from: DBoruta
Well, she's projecting herself (face and hands) through the Black Omen, so yeah, she did kinda merge with the Black Omen.


That wasn't really a projection if she took on her new form thanks to Lavos' power.

Chrono'99

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 06:52:12 am »
According to Kwhazit's translations, Queen Zeal does say she has become part of the Black Omen and Lavos, but I guess it's more figure of speech and megalomania than actual, physical "merging":
Quote
女王「ここでは力が出せん……。  良い事を思い付いた。  キサマら魔神器に取り込んでくれる。  ありがたく思うとよいぞ……。  この船の一部になれることを!  この私の一部になれることを!!  ラヴォス様の一部になれること!!! Queen: Here, I can't produce power.... I've thought of something good. I'll put you bastards into the Demon Tool. I hope you're thankful.... To become a part of this ship! To become a part of me!! To become a part of Lavos-sama!!!

DBoruta

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Mammon Machine in the Black Omen
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 07:04:58 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
That wasn't really a projection if she took on her new form thanks to Lavos' power.


Yeah, it was a projection.  We know it is because after Crono & co. defeat her, she reappears in her human form before summoning Lavos.  I'll try to explain my take on how it worked - Zeal's powers on her own weren't enough, nor was the Mammon Machine.  So, she decided to amplify her powers through the Black Omen, and that's where you see her face and hands when Crono & co. fight her for the second time.  So it's not a merger in a sense like the Dragon Gods merging, but it is a merger in that she combines her powers with the Black Omen and it projects her face and hands.