Chrono Cross Resolution

[ZeaLitY]

I've been wondering how the ending of Chrono Cross is truly resolved. This thread will speculate on a variety of inquiries; firstly, we shall begin with Serge.

Forced-Repression

We know that time travelers keep memory of the timeline that existed prior to its changing; those changed do not due to their timeline being new, and the prior one discarded, seen in the axiom How Changing the Past Affects Those in the Present and Future. When Serge used the Chrono Cross, he unified the dimensions, which would be undeniably changing time (history of 10 years). After his party defeats the Time Devourer and releases Schala, he and the party are sent in time to instance when Serge was originally called across the dimensions to Another World. Serge is told that he will lose all memory of the events of Cross; yet, since he is in the Darkness Beyond Time, which is outside of the normal flow, during the unification of the dimensions and altering of history, he should retain these memories; on Opassa Beach, he does mention FATE and Terra Tower.

Thus, I hold that Serge's memory is specifically repressed by Schala or some other mechanism, in order to allow him to live a normal life. Schala herself states, "You will lose all memory of this whole adventure and return to your own time;" thus, she may be its originator.

Time Bastard

The dimensions are unified so that Serge is born and lives; thus, would not the Serge returning from the Darkness Beyond Time encounter the Ideal Timeline's Serge?

GrayLensman has proposed that the Ideal Serge, who inexorably has no memories of the event as he was a product of the adventure and not its partaker, is discarded into the Darkness Beyond Time during the brief intermission between Serge passing out on Opassa and reawakening afterward in the Ideal Timeline.

And what of the party?

What happens to the party? Since only two members may accompany Serge to the Darkness Beyond Time, it is reasonable that all others are simply subject to the axiom How Changing the Past Affects Those in the Present and Future. The two present may have been transplanted into the Ideal Timeline as suggested above, or may have been discarded into the Darkness Beyond Time entirely; there simply is no way of telling since we cannot observe whether they also have fragmentary recollections of the adventure.

[V_Translanka]

For the first time I feel like I actually have something to contribute to something Cross-related. Yippy!

I agree with the theory under "Forced-Repression". I was always under the impression that it was Schala who was going to make him forget. Although I was never truely sure whether or not Serge did in fact forget. A thought always crossed me that perhaps he did recall everything, but chose not to mention it, simply because he didn't think it would change anything presently, everything was as it was supposed to be (whoa, I sound like a character out of the Matrix now >_<).

As for the "Time Bastard" section...Is it not possible that the original Serge simply merges with this "Ideal Timeline Serge" just as the Dimensions themselves merged? It seems plausible enough to me!

The same can be said for what happens to the rest of the party. Although...I always think of Boss battles in different terms. I mean, if you're going to fight any sort of boss, why would you actually limit yourself to fighting it just three-on-one? I always think of the limitations of party numbers as game-semantics only. Thinking thusly, you could say that every character was with Serge.

Something I must add though, each character your with will say something before they leave you after defeating the TD, but don't they say these things before Schala starts her speech? And thusly before she says anything to Serge about him not remembering things? Perhaps this is an implication that the other characters are discarded at the very least to the Ideal Dimension simply before Serge and w/o learning that they will lose their memories and at most that they are simply discarded completely as they aren't needed.

I hope I went somewhere with that...It's late...And I'm not the best Cross-resource on the planet either...And it's late...And something about me not being a good planet resource...And did I mention it's kind of late?

[ZeaLitY]

The revised 'Time Bastard' now accounts for all of this. I believe the two that accompanied him would be reintroduced to the timeline rather than be discarded. Just for the purpose of making this a solid article once it debuts...

[qoute="Time Bastard"]

Time Bastard Theorem
ZeaLitY, GrayLensman

Suppose an entity X exists on timeline Y.

If X time travels from time A to time B, such that B < A; for time > B, Y is sent into the DBT, and Y' is created, containing X'.

For time > A, two identical entities X and X' will exist in Y'.

Conservation of Energy requires that only one entity X or X' exist.

Therefore, X' will be expunged from Y' at time A, and sent into the DBT.[/quote]

More stuff coming...if you guys want, can you try to think of how Serge's new life might have been?

[ZeaLitY]

Since the Time Devourer existed within the Darkness Beyond Time, after it was destroyed the effects would range over all time. This means that when Belthasar warped to 2300 AD from the Ocean Palace, there is no impending threat from the TD and Schala is not held prisoner. Thusly, this version of Belthasar would have no reason to construct Chronopolis and the Time Crash would not occur. (This transient, happier, version of Belthasar would unfortunately cease to exist when the original version first departed in the Neo-Epoch.)

As a result Chronopolis and Dinopolis? would not be sent to 7600 BC. Because Chronopolis is not a time traveler but more like an expression of the future state of the Sea of Eden, its presense in the past is not protected from changes to the timeline and it will cease to exist in that time period. All of the works created by Chronopolis, like the Artificial El'Nido islands and the Records of Fate, would remain, much like Lavos' genetic modifiations remain after it is eliminated from all time. (The Records would of course be inoperative like in Home World?) The Dragonians' decendants and their works would also remain.

Chronopolis' Frozen Flame would no longer exist in the past. The present version of the Flame would exist somewhere on the mainland, presumably acting as a conduit to Lavos in the DBT. The dimensional storm which led Serge to the Flame would not have occured and Lynx would not have been created. Serge never drowns so there is no dimensional split. When the time comes, the old Serge replaces the new one.

Any comments? There are probably some other far reaching consequences that I haven't gotten my head around. Since the change to the timeline occurs in 7600 BC, could this affect the Porre uprising? I assume the Dragons, as part of the TD, would never have existed in this dimension either.

Well, of course, with no Frozen Flame, the Acacia Dragoons would never have gone after it, and therefore would all still be around. Except for Dario, he should still be dead, since the incident on the Isle of the Damned had nothing to do with the Frozen Flame or Chronopolis.

The fate of Guardia may still be uncertain, but with the Dragoons still around to keep the Porre army at bay, would El'Nido still be an independant state?

If Serge, Wazuki and Miguel never visited Chronopolis, they should all be alive as well.

I'm not sure what the current theory regarding the nature of the Time Crash is, but this is my view:

The Time Crash was completely unlike standard forms of time travel.

• Chronopolis and Dinopolis contained much more that three entities, violating the Conservation of Time theorem.
• A three dimensional region of space, containing a vast area of the earth's surface, was transported. This is opposed to Gate travel, where the horizon of the Gate acts as a portal from one space time to another. Gates displace their spherical volume in normal space-time--they do not envelop a region of space and transport it through time.
• The area of the Sea of Eden was still linked to the cause and effect of the future. Unlike normal time traveling, where travelers are not affected by changes to their past world line, the Sea of Eden changes along with the timeline. In Home World, the Day of Lavos still occurred and Chronopolis changed into the Dead Sea, reflecting the ruin of the future.

My conclusion is that the region of the Sea of Eden containing Chronopolis in the Chrono T-2 dimension and Dinopolis in the Reptite dimension did not time travel at all. Rather, the counter-time experiment created a space-time warp which brought the space-time coordinates of the area surrounding the Sea of Eden in 2400 AD into conjunction with the space-time coordinates of the Sea of Eden in 7600 BC. The substance of Chronopolis and Dinopolis was not transported through time; a region of space-time in 7600 BC became that same region in 2400 AD.

The edge of the Sea of Eden was separated from the space-time of 2400 AD and connected to the space-time of 7600 BC. The Sea of Eden and the rest of the world both moved forward through time at the normal rate so that in 1020 AD, Chronopolis was in 11020 AD. The boundary of the Sea of Eden anomaly allowed an entity to travel 10000 years into the future. Passing through this boundary is exactly like time traveling through a Gate or in a vehicle. Time is Conserved and travelers become immune to timeline changes.

In 2400 AD, I image that the Time Crash would appear as if the area of the Sea of Eden collapsed into a singularity. A hole was made in space-time, and the edges of the hole were pulled in to fill the void. In 7600 BC, the future Sea of Eden space would expand from a singularity, enveloping the past Sea of Eden.

When the timeline was changed so that the Time Crash did not occur, the Sea of Eden in 7600 BC remained unchanged. The version of the Sea of Eden which contained Chronopolis was sent into the DBT. However, the boundary of the Sea of Eden behaved like a Gate, even though the space-time anomaly no longer existed. Any entities which crossed the boundary from the future Sea of Eden into the 7600 BC world were protected from changes made to the timeline. Each time an entity crossed the boundary from the Sea of Eden in the original timeline, that same entity appeared at the boundary in the new timeline. The settlers of El Nido appeared out of thin air at the edge of the Sea of Eden. If and when the entities returned to the Sea of Eden in the original timeline, the new versions of the entities were sent into the DBT, in accordance with the Time Bastard theory. Since the outside world was identical in both timelines, the new versions of the entities ceased to exist just as they crossed the conceptual boundary of the Sea of Eden, maintaining the illusion that anomaly was still there. Thus, El Nido was constructed and settled by humans and Reptites, even though Chronopolis and Dinopolis no longer existed in the past.

An unfortunate consequence of this theory is that any entity to ever exit the anomaly must appear at the boundary of the Sea of Eden regardless of changes to the timeline. I’m not sure exactly how many entities exited Chronopolis/Sea of Eden/Dead Sea after 7600 BC (in Another World only, of course), but they would end up wandering around the new timeline. Some of these entities would eventually be sent into the DBT as a result of the Time Bastard theory if they originally time/dimensional traveled. Maybe Schala could have just sent them all into the DBT. Any idea how far reaching this problem could be?

I'm currently speaking to GrayLensman about this.[/list:u]

[Chrono'99]

I don't know if this is a bit off-topic or not sorry, feel free to move this post if necessary...

Also, I don't know if it has already been said but, anyway, I have come to think that the player was actually Serge (or some reincarnation of him etc.).

I mean, during the whole game you are actually reading Schala's diary, and here is what she says at the end :

But I'm sure we'll meet again, someday you and I  
Another place, another time although
You may not know who I am

She should be speaking about Serge, yet she says "you", refering to the reader of the diary... and instead of going to Arni Village, Schala goes all the way through our real world. Imagine you are a Japanese playing this game. During the credits, you see Schala walking in the country, then in Modern Tokyo, and she's turning back to look at the camera/beholder/player. The screen fades out just before you see her face though.

Maybe just a random thought, but I think this stuff gives more sense to the ending.

[Symmetry]

To quote the great Marty McFly, man, that's heavy.

As per GreyLensman's theory - I'm not sure I understand everything he's saying. (And forgive me, I haven't played the game in long time, as I've said and will probably say a number of times in the future.)

First of all, where did 7600 AD come into the picture? Shouldn't this be 7600 BC, or am I missing something?

Secondly, is he (or are you) suggesting that entering the Sea of Eden in the proper dimension is like entering a gate, rather than merely stepping onto some land pulled from the future?

Thirdly, Chronopolis in 11020 AD? Typo, or something else I missed?


Waaaait a minute. Is what's being suggested is that the Chronopolis we see was "pulled back" to 7600 BC to the world where Crono & Serge exist (for their purposes), but to the residents of Chronopolis, they were still inhabiting 2400 AD. (So then, 7620 years or so from that - 11020 AD)

[ZeaLitY]

Yes, by the time it is 1020 A.D. in the present, it is 11020 A.D. in the future. 7,600 A.D. was probably a typo. The basis for Chronopolis existing in a future state comes from the phenomena regarding the Dead Sea; it seems that if certain things end with the world in ruin, the Sea of Eden will reflect this.

Chrono'99, thanks for the player emphasis.

[GrayLensman]

First of all, where did 7600 AD come into the picture? Shouldn't this be 7600 BC, or am I missing something?

That's a typo; it should read 7600 BC.  Would you mind fixing that, Zeality?

Secondly, is he (or are you) suggesting that entering the Sea of Eden in the proper dimension is like entering a gate, rather than merely stepping onto some land pulled from the future?

Yes, I am.

Thirdly, Chronopolis in 11020 AD? Typo, or something else I missed?

Waaaait a minute. Is what's being suggested is that the Chronopolis we see was "pulled back" to 7600 BC to the world where Crono & Serge exist (for their purposes), but to the residents of Chronopolis, they were still inhabiting 2400 AD. (So then, 7620 years or so from that - 11020 AD)

That is exactly what I was suggesting.  Your understanding is much greater than you give yourself credit for.

[Symmetry]

Something I'm curious about -

What precisely happens to Schala?

I only vaguely remember the "correct" ending to Crono Cross, but as Chrono 99' pointed out, she's walking around somewhere that appears very modern. I don't know what to think of that being our reality, but what is Schala to do once she was separated from the Time Devourer?

I would have assumed she returned to the point where she began merging with the Time Devourer - back in 12000 BC.

Thoughts? Someone must have a better idea than mine. I seem to remember thinking (upon first playing the game) that the events of Chrono Cross would simply be negated - that Schala would be separated from the Time Devourer and that in this new timeline there would be no need for the events of Cross to happen - yet Schala would know of it all. I'm certain that this probably violates boocoos of theorems established here, but I figure there might be something of value in sharing it.

[V_Translanka]

Just to note Symmetry, but plenty of the theorems in the Compendium have plenty of counter-theorems and negations and lots have evidence both for and against. So saying something against one of them, knowledged or not, isn't that big of a booboo. As long as there's some support and it's not just wild accusations that is.

I figure she wound up in a more futuristic environment than previously seen outside of a Chronopolis-like era. A more modern invironment. Perhaps now she is searching for Magus (other people believe she's searching for Serge for some odd reason I never understood). Although the last pic shows her sitting in a picture next to some mysterious person (who I always thought was most likely Magus, but again people say Serge) after writing her diary, which is basically about Chrono Cross.

[Faulce]

People say that Schala is looking for Serge because they are thinking in terms of her daughter-clone, Kid.  In other words, they are accidentally giving Kid's personality to Schala because they are sad, confused individuals  

[Chrono'99]

There's a drawing of the guy from the photograph in Missing Piece, it's on Serge's page, and we can clearly see his head, still with a bandanna and the distinctive hair. That, and Schala writing many times in her diary that she'll find Serge etc., can make us think she's searching for Serge. Especially since the whole game really seems to completely obliterate Magus' very existence (beside Lucca's letter). Also, I always thought Schala never knew Janus ever survived the Ocean Palace incident...

Of course perhaps the Missing Piece drawing can't be trusted, perhaps it reflects an old idea that they changed in the final game, kinda like all the dummied out characters and the Magil/Guile stuff...

[ZeaLitY]

I have one issue with GrayLensman's Time Crash illumination; copies of Serge are destined to emerge from the Sea of Eden's Gate Effect, meaning the Serge who returned from the Time Devourer will be Time Bastarded by a bewildered Serge who has no idea what on earth is going on, as to him, he's still in the middle of Chrono Cross.

Perhaps Belthasar did some things to ensure this would not happen.

[V_Translanka]

There's a drawing of the guy from the photograph in Missing Piece, it's on Serge's page, and we can clearly see his head, still with a bandanna and the distinctive hair. That, and Schala writing many times in her diary that she'll find Serge etc., can make us think she's searching for Serge. Especially since the whole game really seems to completely obliterate Magus' very existence (beside Lucca's letter). Also, I always thought Schala never knew Janus ever survived the Ocean Palace incident...

1. The guy in the picture (in-game) clearly has long hair (makes me think Magus). But I've heard that the costume said guy wears is similar to some sketch-work (or maybe it was from what you're talking about) of Serge that was scrapped (...for a wedding or something between the two?).

2. In Trigger, Keystone, we're told that Janus & Melchior are sucked into a time-portal. This undoubtably takes place in the Ocean Palace similar to how they were transported in the Lavos Timeline, so Schala likely knows...

[Symmetry]

2. In Trigger, Keystone, we're told that Janus & Melchior are sucked into a time-portal. This undoubtably takes place in the Ocean Palace similar to how they were transported in the Lavos Timeline, so Schala likely knows...

On the other hand, the Gurus seemed surprised at their fate - they didn't expect to be thrown through time. Given that this isn't an everyday occurance, the Gurus might have been the only ones who knew precisely what those gates were.

As part of the Time Devourer, Schala seems to have an idea of what's going on in Keystone. I don't know to what extent, but she is able to hear Serge's cry and spawn Kid, right? If Magus was still out there, I'd think she would have given him a look-see, don't you? Who knows, maybe she did. Cross really doesn't address Magus' fate, so its hard to say anything conclusively about him.