The Fall of Guardia

[ZeaLitY]

The motivations for the Fall of Guardia are discussed in the Rise of Porre article. Here, we need to pin down what actually happened in theories. Off the top of my head, I can remember a good AIM conversation with GrayLensman and others. I'll post those points in theories now.

==Inquiry==

How could Crono, Marle, and presumably Lucca, powerful warriors and users of magic, be defeated by the Porre army? What actually happened at the Fall of Guardia? Did they use swords or guns? Are Crono and Marle still alive? The lone facts we have come from Masato Kato:

"This is another difficult question. (laughs) The fate of Crono and Marle is not thoroughly explained in Chrono Cross, but taking into consideration the fall of the Kingdom of Guardia and the rise of Porre's militarism on the main continent, there is a good chance the two friends may have been involved in some kind of incident."

"Actually, this is not explained in any of the games, but Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history. But if I start to explain this, it will take me a long time to finish, so I'll stop myself here. (laughs) As it doesn't directly have anything to do with the story of Cross, we cut the details out of the game."

==Theories==

===Swords or Guns?===

====Swords====

At the cutscene depicting the Fall of Guardia, we clearly see the last duel take place between two swordfighting men (one presumably with the Masamune equipped). The raging fire in Truce may have been caused by traditional fire weapons (e.g. Naptha).

====Guns====

Porre is shown to be completely oriented to using ranged firepower in Chrono Cross. Norris, the commander of the Black Wind, has also trained much of his life in using weapons, and the soldiers around Termina curse the outdated knights. The presence of raging fires in Truce at the Fall of Guardia cutscene may suggest the use of artillery or other modern incendiary devices. Nonetheless, fifteen years is ample time to switch weapons in the military, meaning swords still might have been used in 1005 A.D.

===Crono and Marle Defeated?===

====Overwhelming Force====

''Crono and Marle die''

One of the most controversial tenets of RPGs is the death of players outside of battle. Characters who could take on an endless horde of enemies and are level 99 are nonetheless susceptible to death by plot necessity or convention. If we consider that the entire Porre army, armed with guns and cannons, assaulted the Kingdom of Guardia all at once, it is conceivable by plot convention that the heroes could be overwhelmed by ranged firepower. Guardia Castle would be shelled and the heroes would be might by a rain of bullets. This theory accounts for how the dated knights of Guardia could be defeated.

However, this theory does not jive with the ranged weapons of Crono and Marle -- their magic. Marle's Water attacks and Crono's Lightning could easily be used to attack enemies outside of personal combat range, and Luminaire could probably wipe out large portions of the army at once. Additionally, Serge and his crew face gun wielding enemies in Chrono Cross, and the battle system behaves normally (that is, they can use a sword again a gunfighter and succeed). These problems cause this theory to rely on plot convention, which does not do justice to the strength of Crono and Marle. The one thing that might save this theory is Kato's statement about a force "outside the normal flow of time." This can be interpreted as a strong magic user from another era coming in to do battle. Nonetheless, apart from the Gurus, Crono and Marle displayed power exceeding Queen Zeal, who was probably (apart from Magus or any historical figures in that civilization) the strongest magic user of normal history until the time of her death. Magus would have no motivation to effect the Fall of Guardia, which disproves his involvement.

====Political Tableturning====

''Crono and Marle live''

Perhaps the forces of Porre were able to turn the citizens of Truce against Crono and Marle. The two regents, reluctant to fight and kill their own citizens, decided to flee when the invasion was staged. This fails to take into account why Porre would ransack the entire city of Truce and slaughter civilians, considering under this framework the citizens would be on their side.

===Crono and Marle dead?===

====Yes====

Given that Masato Kato states they probably were involved in some kind of incident, and that the lone defender of Guardia is shown being killed in the cutscene, it is logical to conclude that Crono and Marle were killed. Considering that in most governmental overthrows the former regents are hunted down and killed (compare to the overthrow of the tsars of Russia), Porre probably would have avidly sought them out if they fled.

====No====

Three things suggest that Guardia was able to rebound from this fall in 1005 A.D. Firstly, Radius speaks of Guardia as if it were still a sovereign nation. Secondly, Norris reveals when he approaches the Frozen Flame that Porre requires it to surpass the other strong countries of the world. Lastly, in the ending General Kid, Kid declares that the first order of business for the Dragoons is victory over Guardia, and then Porre. This suggests that Guardia did make a comeback, and that perhaps Crono and Marle are still alive and restoring the kingdom to its former glory.

Perhaps the most important evidence arguing for their continued lives is found in Chrono Cross; both pieces originate from Lucca. Firstly, in Lucca's orphanage, several drawings of Crono and the other heroes were made (perhaps excluding Frog and Magus). Considering that the drawings feature Kid, they were probably done after the Fall of Guardia, by the time she would be able to sketch (with other kids perhaps contributing with drawings). If Crono and Marle were dead, and Ayla and Robo had returned to their eras, how could the children know what they look like to draw them? One simple possibility is that the children used photographs. However, one drawing at the bottom of the wall appears to be of a Nu, suggesting that perhaps the heroes of time did visit one another (possibly through the Epoch, if it were not dismantled). Next, the second piece of evidence comes from Lucca's letter to Kid. Once again, its timeframe must be established. Since Lucca speaks of Kid's mannerisms, it had to be written after the Fall of Guardia (Kid would only have been one year old otherwise). Within the letter, Lucca speaks of her friends in present tense.

<pre>
   We still feel proud of the role
   we played in saving our world,
   and in how we were so freely
   able to change the flow of time.
</pre>

<pre>
   I have had a constant dread in my
   heart that someone in our new
   future will travel back in time,
   just like we did, and try and kill
   or capture my friends and me.
</pre>

It is certainly logical to assume that Lucca, when presently speaking of her friends, means Crono and Marle over Frog, Robo, Ayla, and Magus (since they have all returned to their respective times). This nearly confirms that Crono and Marle are still alive, perhaps in hiding or possibly assisting in reconstructing the Kingdom of Guardia (even if it is a derivative state of the larger nation of Porre).

[Ramsus]

Who knows? Maybe another time traveler who wanted to become "one" with Lavos in order to use its power to conquer the universe ended up taking a high position within the Porre government and then influenced them to militarize and while providing newer technology and military tactics. It could even be someone or something from another planet or another dimension.

Hell, maybe some outside force was using their planet to cultivate a new biological weapon (Lavos).

The El Nido setting of Chrono Cross is too isolated in its own little corner of the world to provide any real insight into the matter.

[DeweyisOverrated]

Ugh I really hate these stupid topics.  People think that any character in an RPG or adventure game is essentially immortal, and there's no way to defeat them.

It's "easy" to kill main characters, people.

The best way I can describe this is looking at Star Wars I-III.  Look at the Jedi Knights.  Let's look at Mace Windu, for example.  Behind Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi at that point in time.  He can take out a powerful bounty hunter, or hundreds of droids all at once.  But look, he was killed!  Another "strong" character helped defeat him.  Here's one way of the many possible ways our trio of heros could have been exterminated.

Let's look at the rest of the Jedi.  Essentially, killed by normal people.  A few put up some good fights, but numbers can be overwhelming.  Even Yoda, put up against a certain number of clonetroopers (it would be a lot, but there IS a limit, people) would have perished.  Qui-gon said it himself in episode one, something to the extent of "we're protectors, but we can't fight a war for you".  Same exact thing applies to Crono Marle and Lucca.  Consider them Jedi Knights.  Powerful, hard to defeat, but very, very killable.

[GrayLensman]

Ugh I really hate these stupid topics.  People think that any character in an RPG or adventure game is essentially immortal, and there's no way to defeat them.

It's "easy" to kill main characters, people.

The best way I can describe this is looking at Star Wars I-III.  Look at the Jedi Knights.  Let's look at Mace Windu, for example.  Behind Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi at that point in time.  He can take out a powerful bounty hunter, or hundreds of droids all at once.  But look, he was killed!  Another "strong" character helped defeat him.  Here's one way of the many possible ways our trio of heros could have been exterminated.

Let's look at the rest of the Jedi.  Essentially, killed by normal people.  A few put up some good fights, but numbers can be overwhelming.  Even Yoda, put up against a certain number of clonetroopers (it would be a lot, but there IS a limit, people) would have perished.  Qui-gon said it himself in episode one, something to the extent of "we're protectors, but we can't fight a war for you".  Same exact thing applies to Crono Marle and Lucca.  Consider them Jedi Knights.  Powerful, hard to defeat, but very, very killable.

Star Wars's Jedi have impressive abilities, but the main characters of Chrono Trigger are presented as incomparably more powerful.  If Crono and Marle can stand up to Lavos in personal combat, they are not going to be killed by some grunt.  It could even be possible that the time travellers are invulnerable to anything Porre has at its disposal.

For example, during an animated sequence in the Square-Enix game Xengears (written by none other than Masato Kato), the main protagonist was shot point blank in the chest with a revolver, and was only momentarily stunned.  It is possible for fantasy characters to have superhuman durability.  Jedi only have moderately superhuman abilities.  The time travellers withstood (and reciprocated) the earth-shattering attacks of Lavos.

Since Crono and Marle's fate are completely unknown, I will assume they survived until further information becomes available.  If a future story calls for their death, I presume the writers, hopefully Kato, can come up with a reasonable explanation, particularly since Kato hinted at the influence of something from outside the normal course of history.

[ChronoMagus]

I really doubt Crono and Marle died.. remember in the beginning of the CT when Crono gets imprisioned?  Well if you let Crono nearly die then Lucca comes in and takes out many of the guards on her own. If you try to get out without Lucca, Crono is still perfectly capable of taking out the guards... These heros also survived against crazed robots just fine...  In 2300 AD when they were just beginners they managed to go across wastelands and took out great masses of enemies.
Now that they have killed Lavos and learned the highest levels of magic, they will die at the hands of some stupid soldiers?  Lightning II and Ice II should be able to kill these soldiers, and if needed there is Luminaire and Ice Sword II...

[ZeaLitY]

Yes, the letter from Lucca really suggests they survived. I wasn't aware how important it was until rereading it as I typed the second part of the "They aren't dead" section.

[Daniel Krispin]

I would agree that much of the evidence seems to support that they continue to live. However, I tend to think that is incidental evidence - rather, that the intent was that they died, and that one can find evidence for their living is by exploiting overlooked parts. The general feeling I got from the scene with the ghosts was that they are dead - I truly think that's what Kato was trying to go with there. Or, if they live... if Kato was being clever, looking forward to CB already, the incident might be of a temporal nature. They don't say 'we don't live anymore'... they say 'we don't exist in this time-line anymore', sounding as though they were removed from it, rather than outright destroyed. Just a thought.

Now, regarding their death... I do think it is possible to destroy them, and the example of the Jedi Knights is a good one. To oppose what Gray said, I'll bring up what Hadriel told me a while back about the mightiest of the Jedi, such as Luke or Sidious. Apparently - though I myself have never read this, I'm willing to trust Hadriel's knowledge on these matters - both had the power to destroy fleets and worlds with the Force, a power that probably exceeds that of Lavos himself. Hadriel told me that the Emperor's force storm abilities had the power of a low-level superlaser blast. Now, that's pretty impressive, and could probably outmatch even Luminaire. In fact, I'd think Lightning II to be equivalent to a low level Force Storm power, such appears in Knights of the Old Republic. Now, that does not make these sorts immortal. I'm certain Luke could indeed be killed, as can Palpatine. It's difficult, to be sure, but a fortunate blaster shot to the head - and it can happen if there's too much, or if one's in a weakened state - and so much for a Jedi. Other tales, too, have extremely powerful beings that can be killed by a well-timed stroke, and the like. Melkor, mightiest of the archangels in Tolkien's works, is seriously wounded by the far lesser Elf-king Fingolfin, for example. Melkor, for his part, could probably have stood against one such as Lavos - yet an Elf-lord deals him a serious wound. It all comes down to the fortunes of battle, I think. And though Crono's chief gift seems to be that he is fortune-favoured, that may not be forever. So, though it doesn't prove anything about their death, I think it very possible that they were killed, even by a lowly soldier - especially if the bullet came from behind, or something of that nature.

[Zaperking]

Ugh I really hate these stupid topics.  People think that any character in an RPG or adventure game is essentially immortal, and there's no way to defeat them.

It's "easy" to kill main characters, people.

The best way I can describe this is looking at Star Wars I-III.  Look at the Jedi Knights.  Let's look at Mace Windu, for example.  Behind Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi at that point in time.  He can take out a powerful bounty hunter, or hundreds of droids all at once.  But look, he was killed!  Another "strong" character helped defeat him.  Here's one way of the many possible ways our trio of heros could have been exterminated.

Let's look at the rest of the Jedi.  Essentially, killed by normal people.  A few put up some good fights, but numbers can be overwhelming.  Even Yoda, put up against a certain number of clonetroopers (it would be a lot, but there IS a limit, people) would have perished.  Qui-gon said it himself in episode one, something to the extent of "we're protectors, but we can't fight a war for you".  Same exact thing applies to Crono Marle and Lucca.  Consider them Jedi Knights.  Powerful, hard to defeat, but very, very killable.

Star Wars's Jedi have impressive abilities, but the main characters of Chrono Trigger are presented as incomparably more powerful.  If Crono and Marle can stand up to Lavos in personal combat, they are not going to be killed by some grunt.  It could even be possible that the time travellers are invulnerable to anything Porre has at its disposal.

For example, during an animated sequence in the Square-Enix game Xengears (written by none other than Masato Kato), the main protagonist was shot point blank in the chest with a revolver, and was only momentarily stunned.  It is possible for fantasy characters to have superhuman durability.  Jedi only have moderately superhuman abilities.  The time travellers withstood (and reciprocated) the earth-shattering attacks of Lavos.

Since Crono and Marle's fate are completely unknown, I will assume they survived until further information becomes available.  If a future story calls for their death, I presume the writers, hopefully Kato, can come up with a reasonable explanation, particularly since Kato hinted at the influence of something from outside the normal course of history.

So? This is Square Enix we're talking about. They kill main characters of all the time.
AERITH, AERITH, AERITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geez, She died, so whats your point. Crono died once, and there is no evidence to suggest that he got "stronger". There is a certain time period after his death, his revival and the Lavos Battle. If Crono is gona get stronger, it'd be years. But hello, Gaspar already said that their energy was being derived from all of the peoples hopes and dreams. Once that has been used up, they are and have always been mortal. They even started off human. Having magic doesn't make you more or less human. So don't give that excuse, please. And magic using has a limit before one tires out, in anything.

It isn't a game makers decision to make a character God-like. No way in the world would they ever do that. There's a difference between plot and actually game battles. Lavos has to die by plot. Otherwise, from the story, he'd be able to defeat them. Simply - they wanted Crono and co to defeat him, so they did. Don't tell me you truely believe that each of them has the power equal or higher than the Entity? I don't see Crono pulling in cities from other dimensions, or Marle causing time gates to appear. Really =.=

[GrayLensman]

It isn't a game makers decision to make a character God-like. No way in the world would they ever do that. There's a difference between plot and actually game battles. Lavos has to die by plot. Otherwise, from the story, he'd be able to defeat them. Simply - they wanted Crono and co to defeat him, so they did. Don't tell me you truely believe that each of them has the power equal or higher than the Entity? I don't see Crono pulling in cities from other dimensions, or Marle causing time gates to appear. Really =.=

Lavos wasn't defeated because of Deus ex Machina; that would be terrible story telling.  Crono fought Lavos and won, therefore he has that ability.  He is strong just like other fantastic fictional characters, such as Beowulf, are strong.

The time travellers performed feats similar to those of comic book superheroes or fantasy amine characters.  There isn't any real explanation of how they were able to do things like fight Lavos, but that doesn't nullify their abilities.

In response to Daniel Krispin, I have no knowledge of Star Wars other than the movies.  The point I was trying to make is that while the Jedi have superhuman abilities, they do not have exceptional physical durability.  My namesake, a telepath, could possibly kill Lavos with a bolt of mental force, but he could be killed by a well aimed blaster.  I think the case can be made that Crono can withstand extremely powerful magical and physical forces.

[Daniel Krispin]

In response to Daniel Krispin, I have no knowledge of Star Wars other than the movies.  The point I was trying to make is that while the Jedi have superhuman abilities, they do not have exceptional physical durability.  My namesake, a telepath, could possibly kill Lavos with a bolt of mental force, but he could be killed by a well aimed blaster.  I think the case can be made that Crono can withstand extremely powerful magical and physical forces.

Hmm.... I suppose one can. There is, after all, such a thing as 'magic defense' listed for the heroes attributes, and this must be considered alongside the ability to absorb physical damage. Just like normal people have varying degrees of stamina to physical injury, I suppose it's not inconceivable that Crono has a similar sort of physical-mental resistance to magical forces - after all, if he can control them to strike, he should be able to control them to defend. And, for course, the defensive power of magic to annul other magic in the Chrono world is proven by the MagNegate element. As for physical injury, I suppose his magic can aid him there too. Unaided, I doubt he could survive a bullet to his head (even aided, he likely couldn't) But manifest in such things as Serge's Dash'n'Slash, and Crono's confuse, certain forms of magic can do a sort of Matrix hyper movement, and he could, perhaps, dodge a physical weapon, provided he was not too greatly exhausted (say, fighting an entire army alone, or having blasted Luminare a few times too often... or sick with a flu*) Also, there is PhysNegate in Cross, and perhaps Crono in his sorcery can perform a similar feat (I hold the magic to be only neatly lined up for game mechanics. Crono's heavenly sorcery allows him speed of movement - ie. Confuse - power over life, and varying powers of electromagnetic fields - from Lightning to Luminaire. There's no exact breaking point, but a smooth spectrum of power.) So, I guess I'll alter my stance here into one of agreement, for the most part. The only thing that still stands in the way is that Lucca was overcome by Lynx, arguably a lesser foe than Lavos.

Oh, by the way, regarding what you said there... I've always wondered, exactly who is that in your sig and name? Well, the name's obvious, but who exactly?

*Hey, how about that? The great hero who destroyed Lavos and saved the world was sick with a flu, so got killed by a lowly soldier. Unlikely (Marle could probably heal him of that flu), but funny to consider.

[Zaperking]

And Robo was deleted...

Gray, if you're going to think of it that way, then the Golem Twins, Giga Gaia, Queen Zeal, Slash/Flea/Ozzy, Azala and the Black Tryno fighting Lavos at the same time could destroy him. Heck, a squad of mutants from the Black Omen in that case could do it too. =.=

[ChronoMagus]

But Porre does not have a squad of mutants or the great villians of time...  Porre has an army that could defeat Guardia's, but not a squad of superpowerful genetically modified freaks from Zeal.

[Legend of the Past]

A squad of mutants wasn't as skilled, determined, powered and well armed as Crono and co. There is such a thing as willpower-Crono was pushed forward by everyone's hope, which just made him braver, more willing and less reluctant to lose. Crono woulden't freeze in terror and watch petrified as the Robotic Lavos blasts the living daylights out of him- He would stand and fight for the future, knowing that for all the people that trust and believe in him, he HAS TO FIGHT, without fear.

[GrayLensman]

I think the root of this argument is that people have differing opinions on the magnitude of the forces unleashed during the final battle.

I am of the oppinion that Lavos was a world destroying monster, and its magical powers were earth-shattering.  I think everyone is familiar with my reasoning for this.  The time travellers, though aided by magical arms, armour and special equipment, had to match Lavos blow for blow.  I consider the time travellers to have incomprehensible superhuman abilities on the order of comic book superheroes.

Others, such as Daniel Krispin, belief the time travellers, apart from any magical abilities, to be normal humans.  Lavos's feats did not reflect its prowess in close combat; and, through luck, skill and perseverance (or plot contrivances), the time travellers were able to prevail.  I think this belief is partly based on aesthetic appeal.

In response, all I can say is that Chrono Trigger is a fantasy, and an epic fantasy to boot.  Its OK for characters to have superhuman abilities.  Like certain anime characters or mythological figures, the time travellers have amazing abilities which defy explanation.  Beowulf had the strength of thirty men in each hand, could battle sea monsters in the bottom of the ocean, or hold his breath for hours at a time with no supernatural explanation, and I don't recall anyone complaining.

---

Apparently - though I myself have never read this, I'm willing to trust Hadriel's knowledge on these matters - both had the power to destroy fleets and worlds with the Force, a power that probably exceeds that of Lavos himself. Hadriel told me that the Emperor's force storm abilities had the power of a low-level superlaser blast.

As for physical injury, I suppose his magic can aid him there too. Unaided, I doubt he could survive a bullet to his head (even aided, he likely couldn't) But manifest in such things as Serge's Dash'n'Slash, and Crono's confuse, certain forms of magic can do a sort of Matrix hyper movement, and he could, perhaps, dodge a physical weapon, provided he was not too greatly exhausted (say, fighting an entire army alone, or having blasted Luminare a few times too often... or sick with a flu*)

I just want to briefly cover this point again.  I think a more apt analogy would be if Hans Solo or R2D2 could survive a direct superlaser blast.  I say this because Ayla and Robo do not have any appreciable magical abilities.  It is not a matter of Crono using his magic to shield against Lavos's attacks or gunfire.  The time travellers appear to have physical powers to match their magical abilities.  Armour would help significantly, but it cannot makeup the difference between withstanding an earth-shattering magical attack and being wounded by a gun.

I think that, given the magical and spiritual forces at play in the Chrono Series, the time travellers might have some sort of energy field which repells bullets or swords from their bodies, which would explain their extreme durability.  In my mind, if Crono is in the same class as Lavos, then bullets (or thermonuclear bombs ) should be as damaging as so many snowflakes.

Edit:

Gray, if you're going to think of it that way, then the Golem Twins, Giga Gaia, Queen Zeal, Slash/Flea/Ozzy, Azala and the Black Tryno fighting Lavos at the same time could destroy him. Heck, a squad of mutants from the Black Omen in that case could do it too. =.=

It is impossible to judge the relative strengths of these characters because the battle system doesn't provide any useful information.  For all we know, Lavos was an order of magnitude stronger than all of them put together.  We know how strong Lavos was because it did things like destroy Zeal and 1999 AD.

[Chrono'99]

In my opinion, the "incident" that Crono and Marle were victims of must depends on tricks rather than brute force. If the mysterious force that helped Porre came "from outside the normal flow of time", it might have time-warped Crono and Marle, or jailed them in a pocket dimension or time-stoped them or whatever, even if it couldn't actually defeat them by force.