Author Topic: The Fall of Guardia  (Read 17417 times)

DeweyisOverrated

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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2006, 03:54:45 pm »
Characters in video games aren't meant to appear to be god-like.  The whole point of them is that they (usually) are common human beings, that rise up to help the world, so that we can relate to this.  

Kid "died" in Cross from a simple stab to the stomach (and would have actually died had she not had the amulet on).  And, had an antidote not been found, she would have died from the poison as well.  And, arguably, Kid, being a sister-clone of Schala, would have to be one of the most "godly" characters in the series, no?

Zaperking

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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2006, 04:19:23 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman


It is impossible to judge the relative strengths of these characters because the battle system doesn't provide any useful information.  For all we know, Lavos was an order of magnitude stronger than all of them put together.  We know how strong Lavos was because it did things like destroy Zeal and 1999 AD.


It is impossible to base Lavos' true power on what he did and the fight against Crono and Co. Remember, it wasn't probably 3 but all 7 up against Lavos. And you're forgetting that battle system wise, anyone can be lvl 99 and defeat him easily. We do not know the true level that they were on. Most likely, not so high. In that case, only a few people like Magus or Crono or Robo would survive from any magic like attack. Ayla's brute force would keep her from being koed. And also, Destruction Rain from the Heaven's isn't the same as the thing Lavos used to pelt the Earth. If it was, then the Earth would have been destroyed.

Also, it's like fighting Queen Zeal. Arguably, she is the strongest person with her halliation spell that makes everyone go down to 1 hp. It's just the fact that she has to be beaten to get furthar in the game that stops that from happening. Don't you think it's strange that whenever a character loses all their HP, they just get unconcious, but they don't die unlike all the monsters and bosses that do? It's PLOT.

ChronoMagus

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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2006, 05:18:27 pm »
You people are putting this out of perspective.  When Crono and Lucca were low level early in the game, they managed to take out the Dragon Tank.  The dragon tank had missles and flamethrowers.  I would not be suprised if that was the average capability of Porre's technology.  Later in the game they took out the Guardian robot in 2300 AD... I am positive Porre did not reach that far technologically.  Finally the heros managed to fight their ways through the Ocean Palace and Black Omen... areas where there is technology that far surpasses probably the imagination of the Porrean inventors.  And then there was Lavos, a being that emulated all the great monsters of time, and also had himself 3 forms.  A being that managed to damn the planet eternally.

If Crono and Marle handeled the Ocean Palace, Black Omen, and Lavos there is no doubt that a standard army of Porrean soldiers could not have killed them... it would have needed some juggernaut to destroy them.  Crono and Marle can't destroy the Porrean army, but the Army cannot destroy them.  They probably are fighting for the freedom of Guardia as an underground resistance.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2006, 07:11:42 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
And also, Destruction Rain from the Heaven's isn't the same as the thing Lavos used to pelt the Earth. If it was, then the Earth would have been destroyed.


Not if the battle took place in a pocket dimension.

Quote
Don't you think it's strange that whenever a character loses all their HP, they just get unconcious, but they don't die unlike all the monsters and bosses that do? It's PLOT.


That's why I said the battle system isn't a reliable source of information.

Sentenal

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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2006, 09:58:16 pm »
Zaper, heres what hes saying.

PLOTWISE, Lavos was an incredibly powerful being, capable of crashing into the Earth at very high speeds and surviving, and then later on, having the fire power to waste the earth.  This is not battle mechanics, this is Plot.

Crono and co fought Lavos, and defeated him.  This is Plot.

So Plot Wise, Crono and co had the abilities needed to defeat Lavos.  And that makes them incredibly powerful as well.

Zaperking

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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2006, 01:02:51 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Zaper, heres what hes saying.

PLOTWISE, Lavos was an incredibly powerful being, capable of crashing into the Earth at very high speeds and surviving, and then later on, having the fire power to waste the earth.  This is not battle mechanics, this is Plot.

Crono and co fought Lavos, and defeated him.  This is Plot.

So Plot Wise, Crono and co had the abilities needed to defeat Lavos.  And that makes them incredibly powerful as well.


So if Crono was thrown into space, he could survive without breathing, and then he'd be able to re-enter the Earth's orbit and land in a mountain or something and get no scratch? I mean really.
Even if Crono and Marle faught all those strong monsters, it doens't mean they escaped un scratched or un hurt. Marle has healing powers for a reason, and Crono has life. Taking the story into seriousness would kind of show that they do have to use inns to rest, they might get hurt, they need food, air etc. Lavos' battle may have been a very long one, and the final defeat may have had to have wit and logic to beat him.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2006, 02:18:03 am »
The other thing, I suppose is, that it's true that Lavos has planet destroying power... but at a far distance. For example, the US may have a surfeit of nuclear weapons, but wouldn't dream (except for maybe the gravest of counsels of despair) to launch them if their own soil were under attack - it would injure them too greatly. Likewise, considering how near they stand to Lavos, it may just be he cannot use his most powerful spells and sorcery on them due to their proximity. As such, Crono would not have to withstand such high forces as might otherwise be attested to him. Taking it down to plot, it may just be a case of David and Goliath, rather than, well, Goliath against Goliath. Crono didn't win because of superior might, but by using tactics that Lavos could not counter well. Okay, David and Goliath wasn't meant to be about that, bad example. Say, rather, the second Death Star from Star Wars. It had the power to destroy planets. Yet Wedge and Lando, flying an X-wing and a heavily modified correllian transport, destroyed it - a station 120 km across. Look at Crono and Lavos the same way. Taken at sheer power, Lavos is a hundred times their greater. But what Crono did was engage him at point blank range - still a peril (for which he needed his great power that he gained through the journey), but annulled the greatest portion of Lavos' strength. Then, having blasted a hole into it, proceeds to combat its more vulnerable self under its mighty battle-armour. Just like the Death Star, which stood immortal and unstoppable for a time, but once breached was destroyed by a proton torpedo and a concussion missile. 120km of space station destroyed, because it was in-apt to combat the tactics it was presented with. The same is true for Lavos. Crono's victory wasn't all might - it was cunning, and knowing how to fight. (Now, Crono, I'd figure, is probably equal to or greater than the true Lavos inside... but from the way I figured through this, is no match to the planet destroying bio-armour he is encased in.)

Now, as such, it means that Crono isn't all THAT powerful. There is no neccessity saying he can't be killed. Yes, he may be a great hero, but he is still human. Grey, you brought up the example of Beowulf. Yes, he was very strong, and killed Grendel and his mother with his bare hands... but still he perished to the dragon! And Sigurd, the bane of the dragon Fafnir, who became nearly invincible by bathing in the dragon-blood, was killed by treachery. Tolkien's Turin, a mirror for Sigurd, who performed similar feats in the killing of a great dragon, and was amongst the best of mortal warriors (and, indeed, was fated to kill the Dark Lord Melkor, Sauron's old master, at the Last Battle), died - in grief and horror, casting himself upon his own sword. Herakles, mightiest of the Greek heroes, did not meet any natural or peaceful end. The hero that defeated the great hydra, who went to the ends of the earth to fetch the apples of the Hysperides, and for a time bore the weight of the world in place of Atlas, and later took Kerberos from Hades itself, was killed - by a dead foe, no less. The Centaur Nessus, in lies to Herakles' wife, convinced her that his blood was a love charm - but when she attempted to use it, sending her beloved husband a cloak dipped in it, the hydra venom that had been upon the arrow when Herakles killed Nessus, burned into the hero's skin, and painfully killed him. Subterfuge, again, is the bane of a hero no one - not the giants themselves - could stand against. Great Aias, second only to Akhilleus at Troy, who was like a wall in the defence of his fellows, died by his own hand in remorse. There are manifold heroes that can be mentioned, many having superhuman qualities, who nonetheless succumed to death (though apotheosis on occassion follows that.) I do not see how Crono need be any different. Indeed, like Herakles, it could even have been a minor foe, one he could easily kill, that was his downfall. No great earth-giant, no boar or bull - a ferryman centaur.

Sentenal

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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2006, 02:32:13 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Sentenal
Zaper, heres what hes saying.

PLOTWISE, Lavos was an incredibly powerful being, capable of crashing into the Earth at very high speeds and surviving, and then later on, having the fire power to waste the earth.  This is not battle mechanics, this is Plot.

Crono and co fought Lavos, and defeated him.  This is Plot.

So Plot Wise, Crono and co had the abilities needed to defeat Lavos.  And that makes them incredibly powerful as well.


So if Crono was thrown into space, he could survive without breathing, and then he'd be able to re-enter the Earth's orbit and land in a mountain or something and get no scratch? I mean really.
Even if Crono and Marle faught all those strong monsters, it doens't mean they escaped un scratched or un hurt. Marle has healing powers for a reason, and Crono has life. Taking the story into seriousness would kind of show that they do have to use inns to rest, they might get hurt, they need food, air etc. Lavos' battle may have been a very long one, and the final defeat may have had to have wit and logic to beat him.

Are you trying to be stupid?  Crono and co defeated Lavos.  Was it quick?  Probably not.  Did they get out without a scratch?  Probably not.  Did they win?  Yes.  Does that make them as a group more powerful?  Yes.

If you look at it that way, Crono/co has to be at least 1/3 as strong as Lavos, probably stronger.  And when you take how powerful Lavos was, thats still PLENTY powerful.

Zaperking

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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2006, 03:30:25 am »
Since nobody can or has yet to rebuttle the insightful Daniel Krispin and the thoughtful DeweyisOverrated, as Sentenal blantantly likes to  say "Give up, You have Lost".

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2006, 11:34:03 am »
GrayLensman developed this in the Magic forum.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=590

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2006, 04:21:37 pm »
Daniel, that is a bad comparison to make (Second Death Star). The farther you go into Lavos the stronger it is, not weaker.  The outside shell is merely for transportation, protection, and destruction of the planets surface. Destroying the shell is much easier than destroying the core. I mean c'mon the core is the ultimate evolution of every living thing on the planet. It's not a push over that can be gunned down by a couple of ace pilots, it's an extremely powerful being, with the strongest magic and physical attacks ever. If the core went against the shell the core would win easily.

ChronoMagus

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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2006, 06:46:52 pm »
Seriously, the power of the core is close range... and what part of Lavos was a nuisance, oh yeah I remember, the Lavos bio-mechanical looking core.  That guy cannot fight far range.  He is hooked up to the shell.  He is stuck inside of it.
Not only that, but Crono has been shown to have the endurance to stand a missle blow.  Dragon Tank... yes that retarded little boss.  But the dragon tank had missles and a flame thrower.  At that early primordial stage, Crono manages to survive it.  If he can handle missles being launched at him, why would he die from gunshots?  Especially seeing he can cause massive attacks like Lightning II and Luminaire?
By the way, Marle knows how to heal and revive.  Crono knows how to revive... for some reason I think they can handle some pathetic Porre army.  We have no true proof Crono is dead... and why should he be?

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2006, 09:09:25 pm »
It's just... trying to imagine him taking on an army like that just looks rather silly to me. If he could fight them all by virtue of his sword-skill, like the way they show the assault on the royal palace in Hero, that could be... but otherwise... I don't know. It would just look too cheesy. I'm willing to chalk up all that power to simple game mechanics. Imagine it... actually imagine how that would look. There's a not so fine line between heroic and overkill. To give Crono the ability to destroy an army is almost certainly overkill.

More importantly, it is damaging to the story. What it does is take away his vulnerability, and thus his humanity, minimizing the impact of his character. A hero's relationship with death is probably his most important. In most myths and legends, it is a continual struggle between the two, with the hero victoring for a long time. Herakles wrestles and overcomes Thanatos, for example. And for the Greek hero, the highest point of achievement is a Katabasis, a descent and return from the underworld, a sort of victory over death. Herakles does this, as does Theseus, Orpheus, and Odysseus. Later, Aeneias does as well. The point is, to remove his vulnerability is to remove a very important - almost marking feature - of a hero. In the end, the hero always falls prey to death - and, in some cases such as Herakles or Oedipus, has the final laugh with his apotheosis. To make a hero too powerful is to remove his humanity, remove this examination, and thus remove his relevance. After all, Akhilleus isn't immortal - that was some later rendition. Any arrow, any sword, anywhere, could have killed him. His examination on courage and the chance of death is perhaps the highlight of the Iliad - to have made him fearless and unstoppable would have removed a crucial element. So it is far more interesting to say 'what kind of ill-fortune could have killed so mighty a hero as Crono', and consider it in wonder, than to say 'he's nearly immortal so it couldn't have been the army.'

The thing is, the comparison with the Death Star isn't in-apt. Yes, it appears to get stronger... but it doesn't. The outside has a hundred times the power of the interior, it's just all meant to be used at long range. Close range, it appears weaker, thus the appearance of strengthening as it gets inside.

Sentenal

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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2006, 09:15:18 pm »
Quote
Characters in video games aren't meant to appear to be god-like. The whole point of them is that they (usually) are common human beings, that rise up to help the world, so that we can relate to this.

Kid "died" in Cross from a simple stab to the stomach (and would have actually died had she not had the amulet on). And, had an antidote not been found, she would have died from the poison as well. And, arguably, Kid, being a sister-clone of Schala, would have to be one of the most "godly" characters in the series, no?

No one is saying that they are God like.  This is fact:  Crono and co were powerful enough to kill Lavos, a planet destroying being.  That makes them very powerful.

@Daniel (too long to quote):  Lavos does use his most powerful attacks close range.  In the video we see of Lavos destroying the world, he blankets the world in his attack; including himself.  Lavos used this as Destruction Rains from the Heavens in his pocket dimension fight agianst Crono.

And I do think the Death Star comparision is a bad one, considering the above;  Lavos's strongest attacks are close range as well as long range, unlike the death star.  Lets take another way to discredit that comparision.  Where do you think Lavos's main attacks would come out of?  His shell, for the Rain of Destruction, but we already know he uses that on Crono.  Next would be his Mouth, which is what Crono charges.  You didn't see Lando and Wedge flying down the barrel of the Death Star's main gun to defeat it.

No one is arguing that Crono can't be killed.  What I am arguing is that they ARE extremely powerful, and would thus be able to take on weaklings.  Beowulf was killed by a Dragon, something more powerful than what Beowulf had ever fought before (plus, he was old).  Is there something more powerful, or near as powerful, as Lavos in the Porrean army?  Sigfried died by treachery;  one of the more probable ways Crono may have died, if he did.  Yes, Crono may have died to something insignificant.  But is that probable?  No, its not.  No one expected David to beat Golith.  That was an inprobable victory.  I for one am not going to put my stock into something happening that is improbable; Crono dieing to a weak oppenent that could hardly oppose him.

Here is the basis of what we I at least aruge:  Is Crono a very powerful being?  Yes.  Does that mean hes immortal?  No.  Crono can die.  Most of the deaths of heros you mentioned, such as Hercules' death, were improbable, yes?  Is it too much to ask that it be acknowledged that Crono's death to something as insignifacant would be equally as improbable?

And in an off topic question, Daniel, Turin was fated to kill Morgoth?  Morgoth was never slain, only imprissoned.  So was Turin fated to kill him, but never was able to before death?

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2006, 09:26:44 pm »
Still, the improbable is the most common cause of death for heroes. It seems that they are usually impervious to the probable. Or so I've tended to see. Honestly, I think the best thing to say about Crono is MIA. I really DON'T think he's dead, only that that could have happened. Kato's 'incident' sounds like something happened outside of battle, anyway. Something cunning and surreptitious, or maybe accidental.

Quote from: Sentenal
And in an off topic question, Daniel, Turin was fated to kill Morgoth?  Morgoth was never slain, only imprissoned.  So was Turin fated to kill him, but never was able to before death?


Turin kills Morgoth long thereafter. It's the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which Christopher Tolkien didn't include in the published Silmarillion, I guess (though it appears in The Lost Road and some other books.) Essentially, it's the Last Battle at the end of time. The guard is weary, the Valar grow weary, and Melkor returns from his prision. He destroys the Sun and Moon, but Earendil drives him from the sky into the plains of Valinor. There is the last battle, and against him stand Tulkas, with Eonwe at his right, and Turin (coming from the halls of Mandos) at his left. And it's Turin's black sword that deals, as Tolkien says, unto Melko his death-blow and final end. Now, I'm not quite certain on how Tolkien viewed this later, as it might have been part of an earlier draft. But it seems to follow the general style of the Silmarillion well (though I guess Melkor being called Melko marks it as an older version.) Anyway, it says, though, that of that day, to Turin is given a place amongst the sons of the Valar. The Silmarils are returned, broken, and the Trees are renewed. The Valar grow young again. And all is amended.