Author Topic: I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare  (Read 12860 times)

Darth Mongoose

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2006, 08:10:14 pm »
Kansai dialect is a dialect of Japanese spoken in the kansai region of Japan. It's often associated with comedians and comic characters. There are specific types of Kansai-ben, the most famous being the Osakka dialect.
Characters in anime who speak with Osakka dialect and relatively common, often pose a translation problem:
Osakka from Azumanga Daioh was translated into English speaking with a soft southern american accent in the anime, but in the manga speaks with the dialect of a New Yorker. Nandeyanen was translated as 'fuhgettaboudit', which worked surprisingly well.
Keroberos from Cardcaptor Sakura was translated into English speaking regular English but with occasional wierd words. I've seen his 'Konnonachiwa!' (dialect for Konnichiwa) translated in the manga as 'Hellololo!' and in a fandub as 'Whassaaaaap!?''
The best localised translation of Kansai dialect I've ever seen is that for the British release of the manga of Excel Saga, they made Sumiyoshi (the fat guy who speaks only in Kansai dialect subtitles) speak in Northern English, which due to it's industrial heritage and use in comedy is a perfect British equivalent for Kansai-ben....Plus it was special for me because I speak with a Northern English dialect hahaha.

Kid's accent I always thought of as Cockney (London) English rather than Australian. I think they thought it'd sound cool for a sweet young thief to have an 'Oliver Twist' sound to her voice, but wrote Cockney so badly it came out very Australian sounding.

ChronoMagus

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2006, 11:36:27 am »
I always thought Kid as an aussi from the whole, "I'm gonna kick your arse so bad!" thing... I guess you could say its a vulgar English accent.

Erindar

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2006, 08:23:42 am »
I thought kid was Ausey (dont know how to spell) at first too, but I can see how it could be cockney.  It makes sense.  Oh and about frog.  I think a normal down to business frog is better than the flowerey rennaiance (dont know how to spell sorry) frog, but thats just me.

SilentMartyr

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2006, 11:31:31 am »
Quote from: SolidSnake_8608
Why is that Frog only speaks like a normal person when, well, he is a normal person? Maybe his old english is just a gay side effect of the curse.


It isn't a side effect becuase when he first awakens he doesn't talk in that tounge, he talks normally.

JossiRossi

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2006, 02:27:53 am »
One thing I learned the other day from a friend.

When Shakespeare wrote his now world famous plays, people did NOT actually talk like that. I had always thought that all people back then spoke as they did in his plays. But no. Shakespeare was equal parts poet and playwrite. He made his plays in iambic pentameter and as a result he had to bend the rules of english to make the words fit. Or in some cases outright break it.

After the printing press became popular and readily available one of the most popular things printed were Shakespear's plays. From these printings the lower uneducated class would learn language. Eventually Shakespeares made up language became a real language for those without teachers.

Ultimately, it's these lower class people that began to more readily populate the United States, so in fact the root of American english is Shakespearian English, and British English is rooted from sometime before Shakespeare.

Now take that all with a grain of salt of course, but I trust that my friend believes it to be true, and she's a history major who has proved me wrong plenty of times so she has enough credibility for me.

Reason I say all this. Perhaps Frog entered the world ofthe uneducated belly of the royal kingdom and as such picked up the language of the lower class. This might be giving more credit to the transation attempt, but stil worth considering. (After all in the Japanese version Frog was very unclean in his words swearing and being harsh, something often attributed to lower classes.)

Magus22

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2006, 06:35:39 pm »
Quote from: ChronoMagus
I always thought Kid as an aussi from the whole, "I'm gonna kick your arse so bad!" thing... I guess you could say its a vulgar English accent.


"Oi!"

"Bugger!"

"We're good mates now!"

"I am gonna kick ur sorry arses so hard you'll kiss the moons!"


she's a little bit of everything . . . combos of english mayb even austrailian and some others

Legend of the Past

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2006, 04:05:25 pm »
Can't she how Australians don't say Bugger or Oi.

Magus22

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2006, 04:19:03 pm »
i was thinkin bout "mate" in the austrailian tongue

but that can b related to an english accent too nontheless

Chrono'99

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2006, 04:49:26 pm »
The truth is that Frog is a Woolseyian and Kid a Honeywoodian :P

ChronoMagus

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2006, 05:44:27 pm »
Tis be true.

Kanata

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I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2006, 01:28:13 pm »
Quote from: Beer Pope
An increase in intelligence?  It more likely just made him a little crazy.  He probably doesn't even realize he's talking like that.
yeah aor he really really likes to talk like that and uses the fact that he's a frog to talk like that!!

Lord Homonculous

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Re: I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2006, 06:01:11 pm »
A couple things, after reading through this thread.  :)

Ted Woolsey (and why is it so popular to piņata the guy who brought us all the 16-bit RPGs we love?) probably translated Frog the way he did to draw a correlate between him and Cyan from FF6. IIRC, Cyan was translated using "Middle English" because Cyan's dialogue in the Japanese FF6 was keigo/kenjogo, and the feel of Woolsey's "Middle English" was the best way to approximate this. I personally think a Chivalric Frog works better than the actual Japanese Frog -- but then again, I also happen to think that Ozzie, Slash and Flea work better than a spread of condiments (and that the three Gurus are awesome with Biblically-inspired names), but hey, that's just me.

On the subject of Woolsey's "Middle English"... He did it wrong. Now I'm not beating up on Ted here, because I think in general he did an awesome job of presenting us with games that have obviously touched and inspired us in uncountable ways. But one thing nobody else has brought up yet in this discussion is that "thou" is completely misused in both CT and FF6.

The way it's commonly misused is to give the impression of respect; you respect someone by setting them above you, and using "thou." Woolsey used this because he believed it was as near an approximation of the Japanese concept of "honorifics" that the English language was capable of, and this mistaken impression is largely born out of the fact that "thou" sounds archaic to modern ears and, therefore, you must be honoring something if you're speaking in the old tongue. Right?

Wrong. Thou began originally as the second person singular pronoun of English. When the French came to rule England, the French royal habit of royalty being addressed with plural pronouns (i.e. "the Royal We") came into use, and down the line a distinction between English's two second person pronouns developed which was similar to that which is still employed in modern French: "thou" was still exclusively singular, as the French pronoun "tu," but was used more often than not to express a closeness/familiarity between the speaker and the listener. The pronoun "you," however, as with the French pronoun "vous," was either exclusively plural, or singular when there is distance/formality necessary between speaker and listener. This is why English translations of the Bible still carry the use of the "thou" pronouns: the most revolutionary idea of early Christianity was the closeness between God and man, such that you could call God "thou" and he wouldn't be offended, because y'all were just that tight. You feel me?

In the end, Frog is much more memorable in CT the way he was presented in our English translation. I think he would have been less-so if CT's English port remained true to the J characterization of him... you can only have so many down-to-business, plain-spoken badasses in an ensemble before they all start to bleed together... and between Crono, Ayla and Magus you have to wonder how Frog would have been able to stand out if the decision hadn't been made to have him attempt to emulate more of a chivalric persona.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2006, 12:17:31 am »
A couple things, after reading through this thread.  :)
Wrong. Thou began originally as the second person singular pronoun of English. When the French came to rule England, the French royal habit of royalty being addressed with plural pronouns (i.e. "the Royal We") came into use, and down the line a distinction between English's two second person pronouns developed which was similar to that which is still employed in modern French: "thou" was still exclusively singular, as the French pronoun "tu," but was used more often than not to express a closeness/familiarity between the speaker and the listener. The pronoun "you," however, as with the French pronoun "vous," was either exclusively plural, or singular when there is distance/formality necessary between speaker and listener. This is why English translations of the Bible still carry the use of the "thou" pronouns: the most revolutionary idea of early Christianity was the closeness between God and man, such that you could call God "thou" and he wouldn't be offended, because y'all were just that tight. You feel me?

Well, aside from the fact that Woosly is writing Modern English, not Middle (that would be far too hard to understand, since it's not been in common use since something like the 1300s - anything after that, Shakespeare included, is modern), it must also be remembered that what 'thou' preserves is also a time when there was a distinction in what part of speech the pronoun took. Yes, thou is second purson singular... but it isn't the only one. Thee is also in that position, as is thine/thy (variable if a consonant or vowel follows.) Thou is subject, thee is object, and thy/thine is possessive (I guess we don't have a dative or vocative.) The origins are, as you've pointed out, rather complex. I can't quite recall the original outlay of the pronouns, but I looked it up in the OED once, and it really was quite complex. What we have is far easier, if somewhat less precise (I'm learning ancient Greek right now, and they have the whole list of them, pretty much. All cases singular and plural, all persons.)

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2006, 05:09:08 am »
Ted Woolsey (and why is it so popular to piņata the guy who brought us all the 16-bit RPGs we love?) probably translated Frog the way he did.........
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=1558.0

parkbench

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Re: I know why Frog talks like Shakespeare
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2006, 12:13:51 am »
Actually, I'm playing through Chrono Trigger in Japanese right now. I'm only up to the trial, but so far Frog has shown himself to be extremely polite. Granted, he hasn't gone to the 拙者 or 殿 lengths that Cyan does, but he does usually use polite conjugations and humble verbs.