What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

[DBoruta]

Recently, I accessed the alternate ending in Chrono Cross, where FATE recovers the Frozen Flame by using Lynx/Dark Serge as planned.  All the records of FATE turn black, and it is suggested that this happens because Lynx/Dark Serge recovers the Flame for FATE and becomes one with FATE.  

The more I think about it, however, the less it makes sense.  We find out in the game that Lynx was a part of FATE the whole time or was completely under FATE's control, essentially being FATE.  There is a part of this that is left completely unanswered and also leads me to believe that had Serge not been able to stop FATE from recovering the Frozen Flame, the future in the Dead Sea would have happened due to an error on FATE's part.  

The FATE computer calculated that if it regained control of the Frozen Flame, it could regain its power over possibly stabilizing the correct future and protect humanity from Lavos.  The problem that the FATE computer did not forsee, however, was that by recovering the Frozen Flame through the method of switching bodies with the Arbiter, Serge, it would have caused the very destruction it wished to prevent, or possibly the destruction of all space-time.  

Let's just say that FATE did recover the Flame under the guise of Dark Serge.  Dark Serge becomes one with FATE and also is in contact with the Frozen Flame, which in turn can be in contact with Lavos and/or the Time Devourer.  The only thing I'm not sure of is which form of Lavos FATE would become one with - Lavos or the Time Devourer.  A paradox occurs though, because by merging with one, it cannot possibly merge with the other.  We know, however, that it is because of Serge that Lavos is able to still reign in the future, and it also because Serge that the Time Devourer could destroy all space-time.  That is, if it merges with Serge, who is connected to the Frozen Flame.  

So, the question I'm raising is what would have happened if FATE had succeeded?  My prediction is that it would have inadvertantly caused destruction of either one future or all of spacetime, hence the reason why Serge had to stop FATE from succeeding in its goal.  The thing is, I'm just not so sure if I'm right.  What do you think about this?

[Zaperking]

This is something i've been thinking about.

It seems to me as if Lynx still has Wazuki somewhere inside him, and that he is actually still a different entity from FATE. What i'm trying to say is like that Wazuki had FATE mixed into his brain, and created a totally different personality.

FATE the computer wants to create it's own spieces (I myself would have thought that it would have been more dramatic and better if it wanted to become human).
Lynx wants to literally become the God of Fate.

So I'm thinking that if Lynx get's it via Dark Serge, he is going to use it to grant his wish and become godlike, which kind of reflects what Lynx wanted in Radical Dreamers, but instead control of time.

The fact that FATE's records die may mean that there is no need anymore, if Dark Serge has now amased so much power that he can actually control it and be the actual God of Fate.

Also, I don't think it comes down to just Serge's body as being the arbiter. That's more to do with the prometheus lock. But the TD arbiter has to have something in common wish Schala probably, and be the missing piece. Since Serge's body was rebuilt, and his original exists aswell, there should be no missing piece since both worlds now have a Serge. But it's not that way, so I think that only the real Serge can have a direct impact with the TD.

[AuraTwilight]

If Dark Serge had successfully merged with FATE, the Time Devourer would've consumed all Space-Time. The End.

[Chrono'99]

I... don't understand, why that brings the end of the universe?

[DBoruta]

I'm not really sure about it either, but if we can make Dark Serge and Serge equivalent in their connection with the Frozen Flame, we can draw on conclusions about Serge coming into contact with the Frozen Flame and merging with it.  If Serge would have actually taken the Frozen Flame into his possession during Chrono Cross, which he never did, he would have either killed the future Crono & co. tried to make by merging with Lavos, or he would have merged with the Time Devourer and all of space-time would have been consumed.  

The reason for the differences between Home World and Another World is that Serge is alive in Home World.  Because of this, Lavos still reigns in the Home World Future.  We also know that once Schala merged with the Time Devourer and once Serge became part of the Time Devourer in a certain way, all of space-time would be consumed.  This gets somewhat confusing if thought about in a 4-D or even a 5-D sense...  Thinking about it in 6 dimensions makes it a bit clearer that it is possible for Serge to merge with both, but I just don't think it's correct.  

I really think I'm missing something here, but I don't know what the missing piece is.

[ZeaLitY]

FATE held the Flame for thousands of years without any apparent bonding akin to the Arbiter link. But that's not the question, is it? I tend to agree with Zaperking. There was an inquiry a while ago into why Lynx was such a sadist, when FATE would presumably act as a logical and rational machine with no excess or unneeded action. I believe Lynx still retains his own independent personality, and did want to become king of FATE. But then again, he doesn't seemingly recover the Frozen Flame in that ending.

One thing we must consider is that by logic, FATE wanted to kill Serge to deactivate the Prometheus Circuit and reestablish access with the Frozen Flame. This happened in Another World. That is, before the dimensions split, 1010-1020 A.D. existed in Another World (to get specific, on the timeline of Keystone T-2) until Kid went back in time and changed history to cause the split. What implications does this have?

[DBoruta]

My problem with the thought that Lynx wanted to become the "king" of FATE is that in Chrono Cross, even without being in contact with the Frozen Flame, Lynx/Dark Serge does "revert" (I'm using the term loosely here) back to being FATE.    

The dimensional split in itself is still pretty interesting.  The Prometheus circuit didn't deactivate in Another World after the dimensional split due to the "missing piece" phenomenon.  So, FATE turns to a plan B.  If it can't deactivate the Prometheus circuit, it will have to just open it with Serge's body.  So what implications does this have?  We see that FATE's only goal is to get the Flame back no matter what.  The thing is, by going to this plan B, it also made an error, since if the arbiter comes into the contact with the Flame, it essentially comes into contact with Lavos.  Then, all hell breaks loose.

[Zaperking]

I think it was stated in the game or hinted, but FATE was losing it's sanity thanks to the flame and that was when it didn't care about protecting humanity anymore, but actually wanting to create it's own spieces, and it wanted to hold onto the Flame for it's own need.

As for Lynx and FATE.
I think Lynx has his own personality from FATE. Lets just say that he's gone beyond AI and now looks out for his own life and such. That was why he said that thing "Show me what it means to live" or whatever when the fight started. FATE has obviously evolved inside the body of Wazuki. And simply, his body was destroyed so that he could amass a more powerful and stronger body in the battle, so that was when all those wires came. If anyone remembers Bubble Gum Crisis Tokyo 2040, Galatia intergrated her consciousness into the machines and they all mutated and the wires became her body etc. Kind of like that.

Now as for Serge. Here is the weird thing. There is no flame in Home World except for the Dead Sea, which is actually as a theory goes is 11,000 years in the future. Now, that FATE destroyed the Dead Sea since it doesn't want Serge to get it, there should be no reason now that what Lavos did should happen, since the flame doesn't exist there. So I don't get it.

[AuraTwilight]

I... don't understand, why that brings the end of the universe?

Because if things deviate from Belthasar's plan, the world is fated to be destroyed by the Time Devourer. O_o

Also, I don't think it was any corruption on the Flame's part that made FATE act the way it did. After all, Schala and Serge weren't corrupted and they were connected to the damn thing. I think FATE just went Rampant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampancy

[DBoruta]

The Dead Sea is really weird.  It's pretty much a giant timefreeze that is somehow present in the flow of time.  Now, here's the real interesting part - the Frozen Flame is somehow in the little pocket dimensional place where Serge & co. meet Miguel and find Nadia's Bell, but we don't know if the Frozen Flame is ever destroyed there.  We do know that the Dead Sea itself is destroyed, but I would consider where the Frozen Flame is to be not inside the Dead Sea at that point.

[Zaperking]

The Dead Sea is really weird.  It's pretty much a giant timefreeze that is somehow present in the flow of time.  Now, here's the real interesting part - the Frozen Flame is somehow in the little pocket dimensional place where Serge & co. meet Miguel and find Nadia's Bell, but we don't know if the Frozen Flame is ever destroyed there.  We do know that the Dead Sea itself is destroyed, but I would consider where the Frozen Flame is to be not inside the Dead Sea at that point.

The portal that they took was more of a wormhole to another part in teh Dead Sea, simply for convineance. Remember, the Dead Sea is a conglomeration, so Nadia's bell could be anywhere, even if it was once on a hill, it could still be ontop of a house.

[DBoruta]

The problem with that is that the place where Nadia's Bell is found is way too intact in comparision with the Tower of Geddon or any other part of the Dead Sea.

[AuraTwilight]

Because of Miguel's and the Ghost Children's influence.

[Zaperking]

The problem with that is that the place where Nadia's Bell is found is way too intact in comparision with the Tower of Geddon or any other part of the Dead Sea.

What's your point? Miguel already said that nothing ages or wears away in the Dead Sea. Heck, Nadia's bell may be a combination of some other place that it's on (that little step thing). We see that the bell is damaged, and so it is. A lot of the Tower of Geddon is intact, but still damaged. It's not like Lavos' rain had a critical strike on the bell and tower. That's to say that the Tower of Geddon isn't the actual name of the conglomeration of other towers and buildings of the Dead Sea + Chronopolis.

[DBoruta]

Because of Miguel's and the Ghost Children's influence.

I highly doubt that's the case - Miguel is essentially a prisoner of FATE, and we never see the "ghost children" do anything but follow Serge around and give him messages of some type.  Really, the "ghost children" seem to be a creation of Belthasar's more than anything else (evidence at the end of the game where the ghost children explain a lot of what went on and why).  

What's your point? Miguel already said that nothing ages or wears away in the Dead Sea. Heck, Nadia's bell may be a combination of some other place that it's on (that little step thing).

My point is that in comparison with anything in the Dead Sea, this place is completely different.  Up to that point, the amount disorder seen in the Dead Sea is fairly distributed.  So, you go from a high distribution of disorder in the Dead Sea to a very low distribution of disorder where Miguel is.  Something doesn't add up there.

I would also venture to say that where Miguel resides is one solitary place, not a conglomeration.  The architecture there is pretty homogenous and ordered well.  Compare that to the Dead Sea - the architecture is all from the same time period, but definitely not homogenous and ordered well.    

A lot of the Tower of Geddon is intact, but still damaged. It's not like Lavos' rain had a critical strike on the bell and tower. That's to say that the Tower of Geddon isn't the actual name of the conglomeration of other towers and buildings of the Dead Sea + Chronopolis.

I'm not caring if the Tower of Geddon is intact or not.  Also just a nitpick - the Tower of Geddon is a mesh of buildings from the destroyed future.  The Dead Sea itself is a really condensed time freeze of the entire world.  The only thing that isn't there, however, is Chronopolis - we never see any evidence of Chronopolis actually being inside the Dead Sea.  The closest place we get to Chronopolis is the place where Miguel is, and we know this because Miguel was actually inside Chronopolis.  Also, somehow the FATE computer has control over the Dead Sea (seeing how FATE destroys the Dead Sea), meaning Chronopolis is somehow outside of the timefreeze, otherwise the FATE computer would have gotten frozen as well.