The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen

[ChronoMagus]

Reminds me much more the Zelda Triforce... elemental goddesses with corresponding spirtual attributes which have parallels is screaming at me.
TRIFORCE OF WISDOM! TRIFORCE OF COURAGE! TRIFORCE OF POWER! (Well it was along those lines...)

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Thread revival! 12 years later!

So this is something I've been really thinking about recently. Maybe it falls back to the upcoming Dream Splash and their relation to the Dreams of Zeal, but Masa, Mune, and Doreen have always fascinated me.

We know so little about them!

Here's what we know
-Masa and Mune are separate entities (or are they?)
-Can combine into a big fart-faced muscle dude named Masamune
-Utilizes the power of the wind
-Can form a powerful sword that manifests the will of it's wielder...
-...Which, when wielded by one with a "negative" willpower, can corrupt the Masamune into a cursed blade capable of near-possession and violent, corrupting influence
-They can also join with their sister, Doreen, to become the Mastermune -- a powerful weapon that appears capable of changing forms. This creates the assumption that they can take on various forms; the sword form in Chrono Trigger is just a form, although it may be their primary/default form
-They are seemingly born from the Ruby Knife, created my Melchior, which was used by Crono (and someone else in the original timeline; likely Schala or Melchior himself) to strike the Mammon Machine. This infused it with tons of magical energy -- was this the birth of Masa and Mune? Their rise to consciousness? Or perhaps they were already aware and this simply brought them their strength, their ability to manifest willpower into raw strength?
-They believe that it's more important in how you use the sword rather than how strong the sword is
-Has a counterpart from the Dragonian timeline called the Einlanzer, which can negate the Masamune should it be corrupted
-When corrupted, Masa and Mune are "asleep" -- so perhaps they are unaware while their power is tapped? Or is asleep moreso wordplay for their lack of influence over the wielder using positive-traited willpower?

I may have missed a detail or three.

So I already present some questions as I was laying out the known facts, but I can't stop thinking about they guys for some reason. Who are they? Are they manifestations of Melchior's Life? Are they his willpower incarnate?

One "fanon" theory that I do prescribe to is that while Masa and Mune make the Masamune (Grandleon in Japan), Doreen is actually Marle's pendant. This helps explain the almost sentient-nature of the pendant at times and makes for some good fan theorying.

[Acacia Sgt]

-They are seemingly born from the Ruby Knife, created my Melchior, which was used by Crono (and someone else in the original timeline; likely Schala or Melchior himself) to strike the Mammon Machine. This infused it with tons of magical energy -- was this the birth of Masa and Mune? Their rise to consciousness? Or perhaps they were already aware and this simply brought them their strength, their ability to manifest willpower into raw strength?

So I already present some questions as I was laying out the known facts, but I can't stop thinking about they guys for some reason. Who are they? Are they manifestations of Melchior's Life? Are they his willpower incarnate?

Masa and Mune weren't born when the Ruby Knife struck the Mammon Machine. You can in fact find them and talk to them both at Zeal Palace and the Ocean Palace. It's likely all it needed was for the object to exist at all, since the Ruby Knife was already a thing at this point.

Well, I think at the Ocean Palace they state they are Melchior's hopes and dreams. Considering what they state about the sword, perhaps they are in fact the manifestation of Melchior's beliefs and expectation when both creating the sword and how it should be used.

[Razig]

Well, I think at the Ocean Palace they state they are Melchior's hopes and dreams. Considering what they state about the sword, perhaps they are in fact the manifestation of Melchior's beliefs and expectation when both creating the sword and how it should be used.

This was my take on it as well.

I always assumed that in the original timeline, Melchior was the one to stab the Mammon Machine. In both timelines, Lavos's energy transformed the Ruby Knife into the Masamune, empowering it but also making it corruptible. Wielding the sword with evil intent forces Masa and Mune into dormancy, since it's so antithetical to their nature. Without a purehearted wielder to awaken them, the sword will continue to collect and magnify negative sentiments until you get what we see in Chrono Cross.

That's my spin on it, anyway.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Masa and Mune weren't born when the Ruby Knife struck the Mammon Machine. You can in fact find them and talk to them both at Zeal Palace and the Ocean Palace. It's likely all it needed was for the object to exist at all, since the Ruby Knife was already a thing at this point.

You're right! I'd forgotten that.

So I guess the transformation from Ruby Knife -> Masamune is what happened at the Ocean Palace. The Masamune supposedly has the power to dispel magical barriers (and that's why it's needed to fight Magus), so perhaps that's how it gained that aspect; it absorbed part of the Mammon Machine's powers (or something) -- and I'm definitely of the mindset that the Frozen Flame was somehow being utilized by the Mammon Machine, directly or indirectly.

[EgyLynx]

 
Seens like at although i beat that game, i donīt think enough...

[maggiekarp]

Can't remember if I said this theory already, but I figured the Ruby Knife was originally meant to be for Janus. It fits with it being the brother(s) of Schala's pendant, also meant to control the Mammon Machine/interact with Lavos, how it can be used for good or evil depending on the wielder's will, why its called "The Demon Sword" in both sequels, the whole Wind association, and why Magus used a seemingly useless RED!!! scythe to try and beat Lavos at the Ocean Palace.

[Kodokami]

That's a pretty awesome theory. Imagine Magus as the true wielder of the Masamune!

[Acacia Sgt]

Hmm, interesting.

I'd wonder why a dagger, in that case, but then if I remember correctly, some NPC's in Zeal doubted that Janus had any magical expertise. Could add to the theory, perhaps...

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I'd wonder why a dagger, in that case, but then if I remember correctly, some NPC's in Zeal doubted that Janus had any magical expertise. Could add to the theory, perhaps...

That's the solve for the theory. The theory itself is sound and actually makes perfect sense.

Maybe Melchior saw how the Queen - and her forcefulness with making Schala interact with the Mammon Machine - would not bode well for Schala and would end in her demise. Maybe he made the Ruby Knife to give to Janus as a contingency plan; should the Queen's drive become too much and truly become detrimental to Schala, he knew Janus would be willing to destroy the Mammon Machine in order to free his sister. After all, Melchior knew he was in trouble for defying the Queen - which proved right when he was arrested and sent to Mt. Woe as punishment.