Another theory about Lavos that MAY be interesting

[GrayLensman]

[Young Woman]
   Magic strong enough to control the
   extraction of energy, is needed to
   control the Mammon Machine.

Anyone with sufficient magic power could operate the Mammon Machine.  What do you suppose those Enlightened Ones who continuously stood around it were doing?

Schala was an extraordinarily powerful magic user, surpassing even Queen Zeal.  That is why she was the only one who could use the pendant to bring the Mammon Machine to its full power.  Janus, who had even greater power, could have operated the machine as well, and he may have concealed his magical abilities for that reason.

[Legend of the Past]

Good assumption. He saw how Schala was used and didn't want Q.Zeal to use him the same way.

[Magus22]

No offense Zaper, but that closing argument is a little silly. You've made a comparison between your theory, which is supported by one or two vague quotes, to Magus being Janus, which is if I recall, blatantly stated.

North Cape scene

nontheless, about the whole convo and all . . . in this case we're presented with two sides of a coin and both interpretations of these cases which hav been stated are either convincing or stretching the truth

again might i bring up that as FANS we can only speculate

[AuraTwilight]

Actually, Marle's Pendant didn't activate the Machine. What they did was charge the pendant from the impulses from the machine, that everybody was feeling in the room.

Actually, it did.

She's talking about the Flames power, and she's not talking to Lavos, she's probably talking to Schala. It's like a telephone. Schala is on the other line, but the Schala that is on the other line is the one with only hatred left in her.

Hated filled Schala is fused with Lavos and more or less shares his thoughts, so not like it matters. And it seems to be implied that the Frozen Flame just thrusts horrible thoughts into your headto intimidate you.

It can't absorb it without a physical touching. The Masamune can't just point itself and Magus and absorb his magic, or drain the Mammon Machine by being around it. The Pendant had to touch that little red button (probably a hole that pulsed out the energy) to be regenerated. Ofcourse I know it's not a random piece of dreamstone. But if you look at it, it looks more like some sort of sentient being rather than a machine. That little red dot in the centre, like a hollow piece looks as if something is sitting there. Also, a machine can't just work without a powersource or having some connectiong to something. If the Flame atleast powers the machine, that'd explain one thing. If the flame is inside it, and gives that link, then it explains it. Then the Zealians just got to greedy and wanted the link to be stronger, hence more power, and Lavos awoke.

The Mammon Machine was specifically designed to absorb Lavos' energy without touching him. That was the point. As for a machine working without a powersource, yea well that's magic for you.

Well, since an object was stated to enhance humans in CT had a name, but then was named in CC, i'd give it that credit. It's just like with Magus. I don't remember it being stated anywhere that he was Zealian. But we infer that since we know he lived there and is actually Janus. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If people are going to play by those rules, then Magus isn't Zealian, no matter what is inclined, just like what i'm trying to show is. Heck, even Lucca didn't have a last name in CT, and Crono had no mention of a father. Does that mean she has no last name and Crono's mom had a virgin birth? Blah.

Stuff like Magus and Crono's father are a whole lot different than a quote referring to something that didn't even exist in Chronoverse at the time of the quote's writing. At the time of the quote's writing, there were no plans for a sequel, so the only thing that could fit there would be Dreamstone or my earlier Philosopher's Stone metaphor.

Either way, you can't say the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine without accepting that Einlanzer was made by the same guy that made Masamune and that Magus remained in present day and that Lynx is a goddamn "Alieum from Spaces" or something.

[Zaperking]

Either way, you can't say the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine without accepting that Einlanzer was made by the same guy that made Masamune and that Magus remained in present day and that Lynx is a goddamn "Alieum from Spaces" or something.

Lynx is actually an Aristocrat in the scenario with the Mammon Machinie and the truth about Schala.

Also, the Einlanzer there was a prototype, so I don't see your point.

[Young Woman]
   Magic strong enough to control the
   extraction of energy, is needed to
   control the Mammon Machine.

Anyone with sufficient magic power could operate the Mammon Machine.  What do you suppose those Enlightened Ones who continuously stood around it were doing?

[Young Woman]
   The Mammon Machine?
   You came to see it?
         Yes.
         No.
   
   I thought so!
   Feel the flow of the mighty Lavos's
   power?
   Oh...I feel faint.

It's more like their standing around, absorbing the energy of the machine. If you're thinking that 7 people can control the flame, then you might aswell compair them to Schala, whom survived countless years with Lavos >.>

[Chrono'99]

Also, the Einlanzer there was a prototype, so I don't see your point.

The Einlanzer is something in RD and something different in CC. Same for the Frozen Flame... it's different in CC than in RD.

Also, in CT, the Black Omen was destroyed when the defeated Queen Zeal summoned Lavos (we clearly see a dark Luminaire-like orb desintegrating the Omen on the world map). It's apparently true for CC, because we never hear about the Omen again. Belthasar did found the Frozen Flame though, which proves that the Flame wasn't in the Omen.

Moreover, the Omen was located above what is Heckran's Cave in 1,000 A.D. (and the same spot in 12,000 B.C. although there was only water). In the future, Belthasar found the Frozen Flame in El Nido, which is located somewhere west of Porre. The Black Omen was never west of Porre.

Now in RD, Lynx supposedly found some Zealian ruins and the Frozen Flame in them. Thus RD contradicts CT/CC by claiming that the Black Omen wasn't disintegrated...

[ChronoMagus]

After reading 2 pages of arguements I really cannot say that I believe in Zaper's theory.  There are too many contradicitions, and Zaper said

Also, the FF is not dreamstone for one, it's just the shape at the time that they had.

 But then if its inside the Mammon Machine, the Mammon Machine would have to be either, no dreamstone (which is completely false because we know this by CT) or a reduced amount of dreamstone.  Now why would they bother to reduce dreamstone?  There is no reason for them to.  Dreamstone is very efficent at absorbing energy, and less rare, much less rare, than FF.
Also:

(Dreamstone) can't absorb (Lavos' power) without a physical touching.

There is no proof that once fully enriched it cannot. Now how can object absorb energy without touching physicaly?  Well if that did not occur in the real world, the wonder of CT would never have existed.  It is called inductance.  In the real world, when electricity runs through a copper (or any conductive material) coil it causes a magnetic field.  If there is another coil placed parallel to it, a voltage is inducted.  (There is no contradiction with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, because the net energy remains constant in the system)  The two coils do  not physically touch eachother.  That is the technology used to convert the 50 kV or whatever from a power supply to the 220 V to your house, then down to 110 V if you live in US, and down to say 19.5 V for your laptop.  (Thats what the big plastic thing is for).  Now why can the Dreamstone not be a conducting material for the energy of Lavos?  The same concept would work.  The very power it inducts could be used to sustain itself.  The pendant could have been made of pretty crappy material and thus needed to be brought deep within the machine to make the induction possible.  (This is true with normal induction too, if you have the coils far away, only a very small fraction of the electromagnetic flux will pass through the other coil and gain a voltage).

[Zaperking]

My point was that with evidence, no item was ever charged by Lavos' power without touching.

Also, At Chrono'99,
I see your point. But the thing here is that things do change rapidly in the CT World. The Flame could have drifted off, or moved their by itself. Heck, it could have been warped there or something. We don't know, but aslong as it existed all along, and caused humans to evolve, and we know of its powers, then we know that it existed for a long time. With that being said, I would have thought that Queen Zeal would love to have it. I mean, if the Zealians detected Lavos, surely the great power of the Flame must have been detected and utilized.

And also, as for RD. The Zealian may not have been the Black Omens, but Zeals anyway. And the flame wasn't found there, Viper's ancestors kept it in their line or something.
Remembering that RD was a sequal and a prototype, some truths and facts were carried over. Like I said, from what CT didn't divulge, RD filled us in. Heck, we know Magus is looking for Schala, this is a world where Magus gets that, so if Magus also exists, and Lucca exists, then atleast the CT event should have happened, but it went off course ofcourse. If in RD the Mammon Machine is the same, and it was, and the flame was used, then it probably was used in CT, or atleast the consept was so that historically, we would admit to it being there, even though we don't find out till later. Just like with the time egg, till CC came, the true way that it worked wasn't figured out.

[Mystik3eb]

If you're thinking that 7 people can control the flame, then you might aswell compair them to Schala, whom survived countless years with Lavos >.>

Not thinking they can control the Flame. Thinking they can control the flow of absorption provided by Dreamstone and Dreamstone alone. Which could be possible.

I think it's safe to say the ability to asorb and use power/magic was a good enough basis for causing love/hate and all that jazz. Dreamstone helped provide that without the FF, and so did Elemental power before that.

[GrayLensman]

Although this doesn't apply to the current topic, FATE used the Frozen Flame as a power source and it obviously wasn't the Arbiter.

The Frozen Flame wasn't some sort of wish granting talisman; that was a myth.  The Frozen Flame was a living piece of Lavos.  Being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame meat Serge had a special communion with Lavos, and had the power to choose between the planet and the Time Devourer.  In all possibility, Serge was the only individual to ever be chosen by the Flame as "Arbiter."

[Zaperking]

Although this doesn't apply to the current topic, FATE used the Frozen Flame as a power source and it obviously wasn't the Arbiter.

The Frozen Flame wasn't some sort of wish granting talisman; that was a myth.  The Frozen Flame was a living piece of Lavos.  Being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame meat Serge had a special communion with Lavos, and had the power to choose between the planet and the Time Devourer.  In all possibility, Serge was the only individual to ever be chosen by the Flame as "Arbiter."

Well, that's why I said that the machine in Chronopolis that held the flame was like the Mammon Machine. FATE isn't touching the flame, but the energy is being kinda sealed and being used. Heck, without these machines, it may explain why people such as that scientist feared the "anihilation energy" of the flame.

And yes, Serge may have been the only person chosen as Arbiter, but not by Lavos, but by Schala since that person whom called upon him should only have been her in her desperation trying to save him. And besides that, Lavos chose Schala to evolve from.

[Chrono'99]

Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.

[Legend of the Past]

Even so, Serge was made the new Arbiter. Maybe Schala, being both an Arbiter and Lavos' 'host', could choose to replace an Arbiter.

[Magus22]

very possible, and i like the statement about Kid being an arbiter too, it does seem to make sense

although i was wondering, Serge was only chosen as an arbiter because he approached Chronopolis and was in contact with the FF because of the panther demon attack, or was it simply Schala who automatically made Serge this icon because she pitied him?

[Zaperking]

very possible, and i like the statement about Kid being an arbiter too, it does seem to make sense

although i was wondering, Serge was only chosen as an arbiter because he approached Chronopolis and was in contact with the FF because of the panther demon attack, or was it simply Schala who automatically made Serge this icon because she pitied him?

Serge was hurt and Schala heard his cried. She tried to make contact with the dimension, which caused may have on purpose caused Chronopolis to malfunction (if the flame did it). The storm washed Wazuki, Serge and Miguel to Chronopolis. Schala then beckoned Wazuki to bring Serge to the flame, and upon touching it, he became the Arbiter of Time and the Arbiter of the Flame. Basically, whatever happened, Schala let Serge touch it without freezing or going insane or whatever.