Another theory about Lavos that MAY be interesting

[Magus22]

awesome, thank you for that!

[AuraTwilight]

Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.

And possibly Harle. Kid and Harle are NOT Arbiters, so logically Schala is not. (Especially since she needed a damn Pendant and the Mammon Machine to use the Flame, if she did infact make contact with it.)

[Zaperking]

Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.

And possibly Harle. Kid and Harle are NOT Arbiters, so logically Schala is not. (Especially since she needed a damn Pendant and the Mammon Machine to use the Flame, if she did infact make contact with it.)

Well here's another interesting thing...

If Schala passed the arbital status on, and is just now a part of Lavos, which gives her control of the flame since shes a part of it now, Serge can be the arbiter, and Kid and Harle can't since her power over it is because shes merged with Lavos, and not biological since she passed it on.

But the strange thing here is that Kid and Harle did not get burned. But, one would have to accept the fact that that machine keeps the anihilation energy from overwhelming anyone, but then Harle did tell Kid not to touch it, since then she'd be un stopable, and this probably has something to do with Schala being on the other end of the flame (possibly). But then, Harle did physically touch the flame, and fly out of Chronopolis, and then the Dragon God merge and the flame either appeared on Terra Tower by it's own will (Which kind of relates back to the fact that the flame may have wanted to be found in El Nido or it went there), or that the Dragon God carried it there, which would be weird since the Dragon God only wanted it away from FATE, and FATE was dead..

[GreenGannon]

If Schala passed the arbital status on, and is just now a part of Lavos, which gives her control of the flame since shes a part of it now, Serge can be the arbiter, and Kid and Harle can't since her power over it is because shes merged with Lavos, and not biological since she passed it on.

How does one become an Arbiter in the first place? If linking with the flame and not being the Arbiter has disaterous results, then what caused Serge to link with the Flame and, instead of being vaporized, gaining access to it?

Therefore I postulate the following: What evidence is there that only Serge could use the flame? Granted, only Serge could access it in the first place. But that was due to the Prometheus lock, not the Flame itself. And those frozen in the Dead Sea? I theorize that it was connected to FATE, or rather some version of the Prometheus lock in the Home World, since it seemed to serve the exact same purpose by locking out everyone but Serge. Also, your party members aren't affected by it at all physically on Terra Tower, though they each receive a vision. Serge may recieve a similar one, but we can never know thanks to the Silent Protagonist principle.

Therefore, I think that there's nothing really special about Serge's connection to the Flame other than the Prometheus Circuit, and that anyone who uses the flame becomes, in effect, an Arbiter.

But the strange thing here is that Kid and Harle did not get burned. But, one would have to accept the fact that that machine keeps the anihilation energy from overwhelming anyone, but then Harle did tell Kid not to touch it, since then she'd be un stopable, and this probably has something to do with Schala being on the other end of the flame (possibly). But then, Harle did physically touch the flame, and fly out of Chronopolis, and then the Dragon God merge and the flame either appeared on Terra Tower by it's own will (Which kind of relates back to the fact that the flame may have wanted to be found in El Nido or it went there), or that the Dragon God carried it there, which would be weird since the Dragon God only wanted it away from FATE, and FATE was dead..

Uh...why would the Frozen Flame burn anything? It's not like it's actual fire or anything.

I'd be inclined to agree that Harle's warning has either to do with the sudden intake of Schala's memories, or the presence of Schala merged wiht the TD.

I don't think the Dragon God's single goal was to get the flame away from FATE. They were the physical manifesation of the TD in the dimensions. I think they would attempt to do what the Dead Sea ghosts warned Serge about, and somehow bring about the ruined future.

[Zaperking]

How does one become an Arbiter in the first place? If linking with the flame and not being the Arbiter has disaterous results, then what caused Serge to link with the Flame and, instead of being vaporized, gaining access to it?

Therefore I postulate the following: What evidence is there that only Serge could use the flame? Granted, only Serge could access it in the first place. But that was due to the Prometheus lock, not the Flame itself. And those frozen in the Dead Sea? I theorize that it was connected to FATE, or rather some version of the Prometheus lock in the Home World, since it seemed to serve the exact same purpose by locking out everyone but Serge. Also, your party members aren't affected by it at all physically on Terra Tower, though they each receive a vision. Serge may recieve a similar one, but we can never know thanks to the Silent Protagonist principle.

Therefore, I think that there's nothing really special about Serge's connection to the Flame other than the Prometheus Circuit, and that anyone who uses the flame becomes, in effect, an Arbiter.

Uh...why would the Frozen Flame burn anything? It's not like it's actual fire or anything.

I'd be inclined to agree that Harle's warning has either to do with the sudden intake of Schala's memories, or the presence of Schala merged wiht the TD.

I don't think the Dragon God's single goal was to get the flame away from FATE. They were the physical manifesation of the TD in the dimensions. I think they would attempt to do what the Dead Sea ghosts warned Serge about, and somehow bring about the ruined future.

1) Well I guess the game just inclined that one whom has access to the flame becomes the communicator with Lavos and the whole world. My idea was that since Schala was controlling the flame at the time, and is arbiter, she was able to let Serge touch it and hence pass it onto him before she lost it totally. Possibly, if she remained arbiter, the merging would have completed faster (like how Belthasar said the whole thing about the arbiter merging with the flame, the seed of destruction or whatever).

2)True, there is no evidence, but it's inclined. In a way, it's like how im inclining the flame was in the Mammon Machine, but to a greater extent. Though, I too don't know why some people got burned and some didn't. It may have to do with that anihilation energy or whatever that made Wazuki go crazy, and freeze the people of home world. Though, like you said, FATE may have played a part in that. But then again, why didn't FATE go after that flame? Probably because they would have gotten frozen too.

3) When I said burned, I meant frozen or whatever the flame does. Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.

4) With the Dragon God, my own thought was that they would use the Flame for their own purpose, to maybe sack revenge against the Time Devourer, but they didn't use the Flame, so it probably got their by itself in a way. Other than that, it also seemed that the Dragon God at the same time wanted to test Serge and group by seeing if they could defeat it. If they could defeat the Dragon God, then maybe they had a chance to destroy the TD.

[Magus22]

3)Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.

idk . . . i am kinda thinking that the scenes in the end . . . the girl in the white dress being Schala . . . then u see Kid sailing somewhere unknown (perhaps a new adventure)

m thinking they were not merged because of those two scenes, or Schala told Kid where to look for Magus (as u see her leave El Nido maybe?) who was probably still looking for Schala


sorry to get side tracked . . . but getting back to the Arbiter

perhaps, since Serge was hurt and the Flame could heal (sought a good oppertunity?) automatically made Serge this arbiter

[GreenGannon]

1) Well I guess the game just inclined that one whom has access to the flame becomes the communicator with Lavos and the whole world. My idea was that since Schala was controlling the flame at the time, and is arbiter, she was able to let Serge touch it and hence pass it onto him before she lost it totally. Possibly, if she remained arbiter, the merging would have completed faster (like how Belthasar said the whole thing about the arbiter merging with the flame, the seed of destruction or whatever).

Now, I tend to think that anyone who contacts the Frozen Flame would be capable of using it--though perhaps they would need a strong will, or constitution--but Serge is special because of the Prometheus lock. In any case, I think the warning was that since using the flame links you with Lavos, you always run the risk of becoming part of him, whoever you are.

2)True, there is no evidence, but it's inclined. In a way, it's like how im inclining the flame was in the Mammon Machine, but to a greater extent. Though, I too don't know why some people got burned and some didn't. It may have to do with that anihilation energy or whatever that made Wazuki go crazy, and freeze the people of home world. Though, like you said, FATE may have played a part in that. But then again, why didn't FATE go after that flame? Probably because they would have gotten frozen too.

It was my understanding that Wazuki went nutso because FATE overwrote his personality with a new one: Lynx.

As for FATE having gone after the the Flame, it may been able to interact with some aspects, but I don't believe Lynx was alive in Home World, and therefore FATE had no avatar to get the flame.

3) When I said burned, I meant frozen or whatever the flame does.

We never really figure out what the hell it really does, do we?

Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.

My thought was that she'd gain Schala's memories, but I see where you're coming from.

4) With the Dragon God, my own thought was that they would use the Flame for their own purpose, to maybe sack revenge against the Time Devourer, but they didn't use the Flame, so it probably got their by itself in a way. Other than that, it also seemed that the Dragon God at the same time wanted to test Serge and group by seeing if they could defeat it. If they could defeat the Dragon God, then maybe they had a chance to destroy the TD.

Why would they get revenge against the Time Devourer? They're an extension of his will, essentially. In fact, Harle may be to the Dragon God what Lynx is to FATE, but the Dragon God has that same relationship to the Time Devourer.

[Zaperking]

Now, I tend to think that anyone who contacts the Frozen Flame would be capable of using it--though perhaps they would need a strong will, or constitution--but Serge is special because of the Prometheus lock. In any case, I think the warning was that since using the flame links you with Lavos, you always run the risk of becoming part of him, whoever you are.

It was my understanding that Wazuki went nutso because FATE overwrote his personality with a new one: Lynx.

As for FATE having gone after the the Flame, it may been able to interact with some aspects, but I don't believe Lynx was alive in Home World, and therefore FATE had no avatar to get the flame.

We never really figure out what the hell it really does, do we?

My thought was that she'd gain Schala's memories, but I see where you're coming from.

Why would they get revenge against the Time Devourer? They're an extension of his will, essentially. In fact, Harle may be to the Dragon God what Lynx is to FATE, but the Dragon God has that same relationship to the Time Devourer.

Damn it, I love it how you reply GreenGannon. You're like the only person who ever replies to everything that I say ^^

Alright. Just a few points that i'd like to make.

Wazuki, from the game script, had his mind corrupted by the flame. Something about him seeing Serge die made him maddened and then FATE took the opportunity to take his body and use it as a remote part of itself because his soul was detered or something.

One thing about Home world that I think is that Lynx never killed Lucca there. He can't get her to cross dimensions, he can't really do anything. So whatever Lynx did (which involved tricking the Acacia Dragoons to go to the Dead Sea), he did not kill Lucca, since they tried in Another and it got them no where.

And a thing about Serge. The game implies that he is powerful because the dimensions split for him, which means he's important to time. As the game is about free will, whatever his choice is, he will decide whether the time devourer matures or is destroyed.

As for The Dragon God, there is nothing in the game that says that they were affected by the TD. The only thing that happened was that upon being sealed by the Flame, Lavos was able to drain their power, and the only thing that they had left was their projections. They still operate for the planet, wanting to help it get rid of the humans, which they think is the problem. Without Harle, I doubt they'd have a physical presence in the dimension.

[GreenGannon]

Damn it, I love it how you reply GreenGannon. You're like the only person who ever replies to everything that I say ^^

That's just how I do things. I think my reasoning has something to do with making sure everything's accounted for and addressed.

Or something.

Alright. Just a few points that i'd like to make.

Fire away.

Wazuki, from the game script, had his mind corrupted by the flame. Something about him seeing Serge die made him maddened and then FATE took the opportunity to take his body and use it as a remote part of itself because his soul was detered or something.

Well, since we have the script here on the Compendium, I think it's a shame if we don't use it. Pulling up all "Wazuki" references...

 [Crono]
 I don't know how to break
   this to you, but...
   Lynx was actually your
   father, Wazuki!
   Drawing closer to the Flame
   caused him to become unstable,
   and the image of you dying in
   terror changed him completely!
   Finally, after having his
   psyche totally eroded,
   he lost his soul and was
   easily integrated by FATE...
   FATE turned Wazuki into a
   biological interface, modelling
   him after your worst fear at
   the time -- a panther.
   Although Wazuki managed to
   escape from Chronopolis with
   you, he later completely
   succumbed to FATE.
   Humans are such fragile,
   disjointed, imperfect things.
   Love and hate...
   Life and death...

OK, fair point. My only response to this would be that perhaps, part of the flame's effect is that people see their inner demons or their worst fears reflected in it. While having limited support, I'd like to believe it since I figure it would add so much more emotional strength to the concept of Serge's crew being able to face their demons in contrast to how Wazuki succumbed to his.

Bah, mere ramblings! Let's move on.

One thing about Home world that I think is that Lynx never killed Lucca there. He can't get her to cross dimensions, he can't really do anything. So whatever Lynx did (which involved tricking the Acacia Dragoons to go to the Dead Sea), he did not kill Lucca, since they tried in Another and it got them no where.

I don't really understand Lynx's role in Home world other than that he failed to kill Serge.

And a thing about Serge. The game implies that he is powerful because the dimensions split for him, which means he's important to time. As the game is about free will, whatever his choice is, he will decide whether the time devourer matures or is destroyed.

Right, but I don't think that's directly related to him and the flame. I can't promise that this will be easy to follow, so try and bear with me.

Serge comes into contact with the flame and Prometheus does his little thing. Since FATE can't access it, it decides to kill Serge--though that apparently doesn't seem to do anything--Kid travels back in time and saves him in such a way that the dimensions split, and through the course of events, the Prometheus circuit is unlocked. Now Serge isn't special because only he can access the flame. It's pretty open now. But he is still a special case. The damage has been done and he's still the missing piece regardless.

As for The Dragon God, there is nothing in the game that says that they were affected by the TD. The only thing that happened was that upon being sealed by the Flame, Lavos was able to drain their power, and the only thing that they had left was their projections. They still operate for the planet, wanting to help it get rid of the humans, which they think is the problem. Without Harle, I doubt they'd have a physical presence in the dimension.

I believe this was addressed with the whole

OMG! ITS NAME IS THE TIEM DEVOURER + Kato supervised the translation = OMGWTFBBQ?

...I never was all that great at math.

[ZeaLitY]

Despite this topic being based on speculation in check by some facts (cycle + spawn) and also featuring an ethical argument settled in 2004, I think we have something interesting here. This is what shall go in the new theory:

===Dream of Perfection===

''dreamaddict''

Whether naturally evolved and sentient or created, Lavos's purpose as an entire race is to achieve the utmost in biological perfection and essentially produce a god whose powers would be beyond anything comprehensible. In this mode, the trillions who'd perish in the cycle would be a "few eggs broken" to create the larger omelet of perfection and mastery of the universe through biological engineering.

~

Also, just want to note that this:

"Janus, who had even greater power, could have operated the machine as well, and he may have concealed his magical abilities for that reason."

was totally confirmed by the CT Retranslation, which explicitly noted that Janus hid his power to avoid having to deal with Lavos and his corrupted mother. Nice, cogent assessment there, Lensman.

[Zaperking]

Well surely, anyone can operate the machine as long as their the arbiter. Or, without being the arbiter, they operate the machine to operate the flame because no one wants to get to close to the flame, except for Schala who did end up doing that in RD, and we all should know what happened there.

[Magus068]

But it require someone who is powerful enough to control the machine right? That's the reason why they chose Schala as the arbiter because nobody is powerful enough to control the Mammon Machine. If anyone can operate it then they don't need Schala to operate such dangerous machine. I mean, why would they endanger the life of a princess when they can use a commoner as an arbiter?

[Zaperking]

Well thats what I was trying to say. Maybe only the arbiter can control the machine. And even if Janus wanted to be the arbiter, he couldn't. Schala was either chosen by it (which ties in with CC) or that she accidently became it. And there may be a possibility that arbiter status is lost only when the arbiter dies.

I mean, come on. Not only Schala could operate it if it was only on their power. The Guru's, Dalton, even Zeal could. There would have to have been a reason why Schala was the only one. Remember, she did say that the machine would never work without her.

[AuraTwilight]

Or, seeing as the Frozen Flame is only in the Mammon Machine according to Radical Dreamers, which contradicts both CT and CC on numerous occassions, maybe the criteria ISN'T having to be the Arbiter, since the Frozen Flame doesn't have to be involved and probably isn't whatsoever.

[ZeaLitY]

Schala operated it because she was the most powerful person in Zeal (or so they thought, but Janus hid away his power). She was the prime choice. It's that simple.

Radical Dreamers's rumors of the Frozen Flame being used in the Mammon Machine can and do fit if the lost overarching plot line of Chrono Cross is considered:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Cross_Condensed_Plot_Summary

The fact that Serge, as Arbiter, would be next in line to merge with the Time Devourer even hints that Schala is merging with the Time Devourer partly because of her status of Arbiter at the time. At any rate, we lack more information on this.