Another theory about Lavos that MAY be interesting

[GreenGannon]

Are we sure that the Flame was used in the Mammon Machine? I never thought so.

[Magus22]

that's impossible, i thought the only material was dreamstone

evidence: the timeline


isn't the Flame a piece of Lavos's shell?

Zeal must've then come into contact with it to use it in with the mammon machine, IF wat Zaperking is saying is true here

[ChronoMagus]

A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.

And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him.  We humans are like farm animals to him.  
Who has read the book Animal Farm?  (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does)  Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals.  But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters.  The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans.  Thats the basics of the beginning.  The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus!  That makes no sense!  Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer.  What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel?  Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock.  One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future.  They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause.  Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest.  Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them.   And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.

[GreenGannon]

Except that it only applies to part of the book. Afterwards the plot of the book shifts focus to depict how the animal government is slowly corrupted until it is no better--and perhaps worse--than the rule which predated it.

[Radical_Dreamer]

I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.

What exactly does it infect? The Planet? Not at all. Lavos is clearly a parasite, not a virus. If Lavos were akin to a virus, it would have saturated the planet with Lavos spawns and detonated the planet, launching them out in to the cosmos.

He's a good parasite though. Without him, there would be no humans. Schala made this very clear with the whole spermatoza thing. Without him, Humans would not be at their stage or anything, they wouldn't be special since they would not be a thing torn by love and hate and other things. The savior is also the thing that would ruin the planet. But then again, the planet was closer to the dragonians anyway.

How does that make him good? What makes the humans more intrinsically good than the reptites? Everything special about the humans is a result of Lavos, so they were less than the reptites in the absence of Lavos.

Think about it from the planet's perspective. Not only is this giant parasite slowly killing the planet, it murders the planet's favorite race upon arrival, and fosters a bunch of silly apes that wind up causing havoc throughout their history. In fact, the only thing of benefit to the planet that the humans did was take out Lavos, without whom, they wouldn't have rose to dominance in the first place.

[Burning Zeppelin]

A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.

And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him.  We humans are like farm animals to him.  
Who has read the book Animal Farm?  (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does)  Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals.  But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters.  The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans.  Thats the basics of the beginning.  The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus!  That makes no sense!  Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer.  What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel?  Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock.  One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future.  They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause.  Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest.  Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them.   And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.

Wow. CT is TOTALLY a satire on Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Communism in whole!
And Lavos isn't a tyrannical master, who wants shit from his animals.

[ChronoMagus]

A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.

And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him.  We humans are like farm animals to him.  
Who has read the book Animal Farm?  (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does)  Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals.  But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters.  The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans.  Thats the basics of the beginning.  The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus!  That makes no sense!  Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer.  What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel?  Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock.  One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future.  They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause.  Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest.  Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them.   And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.

Wow. CT is TOTALLY a satire on Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Communism in whole!
And Lavos isn't a tyrannical master, who wants shit from his animals.

I said the rest of the book was irrelevant for my point... Heck maybe Chrono Break will be. (And when I say that, it better not be...)  The point is Lavos did not realize a couple of comptent teens would beat the shit out of him.

[Magus22]

it could be that Lavos thought nothing of Crono and Co to be that much of a threat

sometimes we never feel the prick of a masquito land on us and suck our blood

bad metaphor . . .  

[GreenGannon]

Well, not really. Since the mosquito might carry West Nile or Malaria. I know that people [used] to never give mosquitoes a second thought except for the itching.

[GrayLensman]

How does that make him good? What makes the humans more intrinsically good than the reptites? Everything special about the humans is a result of Lavos, so they were less than the reptites in the absence of Lavos.

Think about it from the planet's perspective. Not only is this giant parasite slowly killing the planet, it murders the planet's favorite race upon arrival, and fosters a bunch of silly apes that wind up causing havoc throughout their history. In fact, the only thing of benefit to the planet that the humans did was take out Lavos, without whom, they wouldn't have rose to dominance in the first place.

Other than the Dragonians, who said the Reptites were the favoured species of the planet? Humans were corrupted by Lavos, but then again, so were all life forms.  Humans became extremely successful due to their intelligence and aggressive nature.  The Demi-Humans were justifiably angry at the humans as a result of their oppression, but who are they to say what the Entity prefers?  Change and conflict are part of nature.  Human activity upset the balance of the planet's ecosystems, but they did not ruin the planet like Lavos, and the future seems pretty bright to me.

[GreenGannon]

Considering that the humans would have evolved at some point, and that Ayla defeated Azala before Lavos fell, I'd find it likely that humans would have overtaken the Reptites at some point. Perhaps Dinopolis isn't a sign that it's a Reptite only dimension, perhaps the two races live in some form of peace in the "Reptite" dimension.

[JossiRossi]

Considering that the humans would have evolved at some point, and that Ayla defeated Azala before Lavos fell, I'd find it likely that humans would have overtaken the Reptites at some point. Perhaps Dinopolis isn't a sign that it's a Reptite only dimension, perhaps the two races live in some form of peace in the "Reptite" dimension.

I dunno, in CT it seemed like the only thing going for the Humans was either 1. Ayla the baddest girl of them all. or 2. Hiding in the woods. Which that villiage was later burned.

It has this feeling that the Humans and Reptites were locked in a struggle that could only result in the destruction of one or the other. There were undertones that they simply could not coexist at all. Also on top of all this it felt like the humans had been losing this battle and perhaps were on their last legs.

This is all conjecture and opinion of mine though so take that as you will.

[GreenGannon]

I dunno, in CT it seemed like the only thing going for the Humans was either 1. Ayla the baddest girl of them all. or 2. Hiding in the woods. Which that villiage was later burned.

I honestly doubt that Ayla was the only one of her caliber that would ever exist. Lavos or not, she stills fatally wounds Azala. Without their leader, the Reptites would be slightly demoralized, and the humans would perhaps be energized by that struggle.

It has this feeling that the Humans and Reptites were locked in a struggle that could only result in the destruction of one or the other. There were undertones that they simply could not coexist at all. Also on top of all this it felt like the humans had been losing this battle and perhaps were on their last legs.

Perhaps, inspired by Ayla, the humans gained a fighting zeal whereupon they fought evenly with the demoralized Reptites. Perhaps this led to an even field where they called a truce.

Or perhaps Azala was simply fanatical, and without him peace naturally began to foster itself.

Perhaps there is no peace, and war continues in the Reptite dimension for eons.

Or perhaps the Reptites naturally win.

This is all conjecture and opinion of mine though so take that as you will.

Right, like mine isn't? Of course it's all speculation! However, I'd like to think that the pattern we see is that, devoid of Lavos, peace would be eventually prevalent.

[Zaperking]

May I add that there would not have been Crono and co to help Ayla out =.= Also, the fact that people like Kino were said to have been time travelling to get to where they got, since the future of the Reptite Dimension (or a world where Lavos never lands) would not have humans, Kino would be missing and Ayla may have lead a different path, and fought and lost.

Remember, The Reptites are already thousands, maybe even millions of years advanced than the "apes", who seem to have recently emerged from the trees.

In the Reptite Dimension, humans do not exist as they were wiped out, and the Reptites were able to get closer to the planet, and the planet hence let them harness it's power, putting it into the Dragon God.

Now,  The planet in CC is a selfish little skanky one. It uses it's own beings, no matter who dies or doesn't to save itself. Look at the little bitch, taking out Dinopolis (and it's obvious that it did it with conscious) from it's own dimension and their own Dragon God (the power of the planet) and allowing them to get slaughtered by FATE, the protector of humanity, while at the same time the planet hates them. But yet again, this is also after the humans did a favour for it. So the planet is very contradictory.

Now, as for the Frozen Flame. The Frozen Flame is a part of Lavos that came off during impact with the Earth.
The Flame WAS inside the Mammon Machine, RD makes this very clear and RD had the same past as CT. Also, Belthasar stated it's existance in one of his secret rooms. He called it the "red shard". Dreamstone is not a shard of anything as it is a reoccuring mineral, found long long ago. The Frozen Flame is a shard tho. Belthasar also said that with this, love and hate were born. CC expands with this and explains it all. Upon contact with the flame, the humans were mutated and evolved unnaturally. Chronopolis and Terra Tower/Fort Dragonia state this very clearly, especially with the fact that humans are torn between love and hate.

And as for the Mammon Machine. It is made out of dreamstone, but inside it, what it sucks energy from is the Flame, and Schala communes with it. Placing the flame closer to Lavos would probably increase the link and hence more energy would be drained. Basically, the Mammon Machine just channals that destructive energy out and spreads it around, just like how the FF is contained in that huge ass machinery in Chronopolis.

[AuraTwilight]

Remember, The Reptites are already thousands, maybe even millions of years advanced than the "apes", who seem to have recently emerged from the trees.

Millions is a bit pushing it.

Now, The planet in CC is a selfish little skanky one. It uses it's own beings, no matter who dies or doesn't to save itself. Look at the little bitch, taking out Dinopolis (and it's obvious that it did it with conscious) from it's own dimension and their own Dragon God (the power of the planet) and allowing them to get slaughtered by FATE, the protector of humanity, while at the same time the planet hates them. But yet again, this is also after the humans did a favour for it. So the planet is very contradictory.

Well, if the planet dies, so does all the beings she nurtures. So to sacrifice a few to save the whole, so be it. It's not like they're not gonna die in a blink of an eye anyway through her point of view. Plus, it's been stated that Dinopolis were needed to keep some sort of vague balance thanks to Newton's law. It might've been involuntary. And I don't think she "allowed" Dinopolis to lose. I don't think she's as powerful as you're making her out to be. Plus she most likely loves all things she bore.

The Flame WAS inside the Mammon Machine, RD makes this very clear and RD had the same past as CT. Also, Belthasar stated it's existance in one of his secret rooms. He called it the "red shard". Dreamstone is not a shard of anything as it is a reoccuring mineral, found long long ago. The Frozen Flame is a shard tho. Belthasar also said that with this, love and hate were born. CC expands with this and explains it all. Upon contact with the flame, the humans were mutated and evolved unnaturally. Chronopolis and Terra Tower/Fort Dragonia state this very clearly, especially with the fact that humans are torn between love and hate.

RD contradicts CT AND CC on several points, and yet you're using it as your damn Compendium bible. Also, Dreamstone can be a "shard" if Zeal picked it into pieces for easier transport. For all we know, Dreamstone is one big massive chunk underneath that needed to be broken down. There's also a chance that the "Red Rock" Belthasar speaks of is simply a metaphor, since a Red Rock in most Eastern Religion (Taoism, Shinto, Confuscianism) Is used as an allegory of inherent greed in mankind, which ultimately propagates love and hate.

And as for the Mammon Machine. It is made out of dreamstone, but inside it, what it sucks energy from is the Flame, and Schala communes with it. Placing the flame closer to Lavos would probably increase the link and hence more energy would be drained. Basically, the Mammon Machine just channals that destructive energy out and spreads it around, just like how the FF is contained in that huge ass machinery in Chronopolis.

Dreamstone's main, if only, purpose in the story is to sap Lavos' energy. This would be highly redundant if the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine.