Another theory about Lavos that MAY be interesting

[Zaperking]

Millions is a bit pushing it.

In evolutionary terms, even millions isn't much. Look at Ayla and crew, their brains, from what Chronopolis said, didn't advance till they met up with the flame, probably around 3,000,000 BC.

Well, if the planet dies, so does all the beings she nurtures. So to sacrifice a few to save the whole, so be it. It's not like they're not gonna die in a blink of an eye anyway through her point of view. Plus, it's been stated that Dinopolis were needed to keep some sort of vague balance thanks to Newton's law. It might've been involuntary. And I don't think she "allowed" Dinopolis to lose. I don't think she's as powerful as you're making her out to be. Plus she most likely loves all things she bore.

Well, because the whole game even exists, it kind of means that she hasn't died, even though if one were to travel, lets say into 10,000 AD, she should be and since she transends time, she should be dead always, but she's not so maybe that theory that the world would heal itself may have some credibility.

RD contradicts CT AND CC on several points, and yet you're using it as your damn Compendium bible. Also, Dreamstone can be a "shard" if Zeal picked it into pieces for easier transport. For all we know, Dreamstone is one big massive chunk underneath that needed to be broken down. There's also a chance that the "Red Rock" Belthasar speaks of is simply a metaphor, since a Red Rock in most Eastern Religion (Taoism, Shinto, Confuscianism) Is used as an allegory of inherent greed in mankind, which ultimately propagates love and hate.

Give me something that contradicts CT and CC.
The Frozen Flame is the only logical thing. Even Lynx called it the "Crimson Shard". I don't see how dreamstone can evolve man kind, mutating them in a way and causing them to be torn between love and hate. Game evidence shows that the Flame did this.
And yet again, that metaphor works in perfectly with the Frozen Flame. If Masato Kato was still working on the idea, and called it the red shard as a prototype name, it doesn't mean that it's not the same thing, it's just an earlier name. The Frozen Flame is an allegory of the inherent greed of mankind. All the rumours about it, being able to make a person incredibly rich, giving them the power to control countries and such.
Also, even though RD stems off differently, RD shows that the Flame was inside it, and it logically makes sence. What, do you think that the Mammon Machine in RD is just like  a little glass tube with the Flame there? Ofcourse not. Dreamstone drains energy, and the Frozen Flame channels Lavos energy. The Dreamstone can't just randomly obtain energy without a power source. Also, that little eye looking thing on the Mammon Machine looks like the shape the flame takes on when it opens up.
And about Belthasar, him writing about the existance of the flame, and if he and Melchior and Gaspar had to build The Mammon Machine, Belthasar would have known it. I personally think that he wrote it prior to building it. And the fact that he knows about it kind of shows how he found it in the future, and used it to his advantage.

Dreamstone's main, if only, purpose in the story is to sap Lavos' energy. This would be highly redundant if the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine.

As I said earlier, it's not like Dreamstone can drain energy out of nowhere. The Flame has and channals the power of Lavos. Schala is there to activate the Machine because she is the arbiter, and by communing with it, the flame begins to awaken (probably). Probably before that, The Machine didn't drain as much since it wasn't required, and the flame was alright.
But when it got to close to Lavos, and Zeal demanded that they set the Machine's draining power on the Flame to high, it caused the flame to awaken, overload the machine and hence Lavos awoke. Maybe Lavos awoke since the flame was in danger, and if the flame is like Lavos' back up plan, that may be why he attacked and the machine was in a pocket dimension.

[Mystik3eb]

I still agree with AT on this issue. I've never seen enough undying reason to accept the Frozen Flame is in the Mammon Machine, and that Schala is the "Arbiter" and whatnot. There's nothing against the fact that both those facts are incorrect. The Dreamstone was drawing power from Lavos, whether it was the FF or not. I agree with Aura, having the FF in there is repetitive. I don't think anyone could've touched it without going mad or being destroyed or whatever, anyway.

And I never believed that sillyness of Schala being Arbiter. Who chose her to be Arbiter? Maybe if the FF WAS in the MM, but...there's no reason to say it truly is.

I've always felt this way, even after playing through it completely: RD is definetely nothing to use as reference for anything else in the series except for itself, and the fact that there are different possible realities and dimensions, which we already know from the other two games.

What does RD have wrong that contradicts the other two? Uh...everything about it.

[GreenGannon]

Seriously. Even if RD doesn't contradict something, it still doesn't make it canon. Since RD doesn't exist in official continuity.

[Zaperking]

Ermm.. The last to posts were... weird.

As Mystik3eb said, people would go mad by touching it etc.. But..
Did you also forget that the FF would be encased inside the dreamstone, and also that Schala IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN ACTIVATE THE MAMMON MACHINE, hint hint as to why. Even Queen Zeal could not operate it.

And as I say it again. CC and CT itself showed that the Flame was there by themselves. CT had Belthasar first state an object that advanced the humans. RD furthured this with the fact that the Mammon Machine had the FF inside. Once Schala had activated the Machine, and everything happened as it did in the original timeline, Schala felt horrible about what she had done by activating it and the Flame reincarnated her kinda and Lucca found her. Heck, this may be the original timeline where Lucca and co didn't time travel. Anyway, since RD's past is the same as CT's, it's not a stretch.
CC then adds onto this. CC explains the unnatural evolution that the humans had, and that humans will always be torn between love and hate thanks to it. The Crimson shard, the red shard that grants dreams and gives unlimited wealth to the possesser... That is the Frozen Flame. Not to mention that Luccia adds onto this and says that the Frozen Flame must have been what destroyed a civilization. Why? Because it was responsible for awakening Lavos since Schala awakened it. Through it, the whole fall of Zeal happened.

Also, a thing made of Dreamstone itself can't just absorbed Lavos' energy. It seems pretty weird that people, even though RD furthur explained this, would think that Dreamstone can randomly just absorb energy from a being that is probably about 6km under their planet, without having any sort of connection with it. RD gives the explanation, and it's an official game. The whole concept of Zeal is there, the prototype of CC is there, the Frozen Flame is there, and was then added into CC. Masato may not have known at the time what the "red shard" was going to be, but he obviously worked off it and expanded it, and had it become the Frozen Flame, just as Lucca didn't have a surname till CC came along.

[Magus22]

ok . . .

Basically Dreamstone back a long long time ago was similar to other rock materials, mainly from wat Ayla said

where do u get @ where the FF was incased in Dreamstone?? please state where u obtained this information . . .

The Frozen Flame was NEVER mentioned in CT, u can say watever u wish about Belthasar stated something which enhanced human evolution, u can speculate all u want, but the REAL truth was never mentioned . .  yet

RD is it's own seperate dimension, thus everything in it DOESN'T matter

there may be connections from pervious and present, but all in all, it never happened in the true Chronoverse . . . that be like saying another ME somewhere decided to drop out of high school and become a theif to make a living

in CC, u kno very well wat happened with Schala and this shard of Lavos which IS the FF, she was fused with Lavos after the Zeal incident . . . thee Schala created her clone with her pendant, obviously for protection, where Lucca met up, started the whole orphange business and what not

now, the evidence is in the storyline and plot, Schala, Belthasar and Project Kid and some other factors played the role in a successful clone of Schala . . . Kid

note again that everything in RD is irrelavent, but perhaps it could be the basis of another story to come in the future

anything is possible, but again, all evidence in RD is useless, there is only speculation in which might be the truth in the real world

[GreenGannon]

That's right. RD was replaced by CC. Not added onto. Replaced.

[AuraTwilight]

As for the whole energy issue, the Masamune seems to absorb Lavos energy quite well. Along with several other types of energy. But does that mean the Frozen Flame is in it? WTFOMGBBQ!

Seriously, the Mammon Machine can probably suck Lavos' energy on the pure principle of dreams. It takes the dreams of the Zealians for prosperity and makes it come true by sapping energy from the best source. And if it was the Frozen Flame that was responsible, Lavos probably could've just turned off the Mammon Machine before it got out of hand. Not to mention that RD says Crono was never ressurected, and we know he is from a canon viewpoint.

[Zaperking]

Seriously, the Mammon Machine can probably suck Lavos' energy on the pure principle of dreams. It takes the dreams of the Zealians for prosperity and makes it come true by sapping energy from the best source. And if it was the Frozen Flame that was responsible, Lavos probably could've just turned off the Mammon Machine before it got out of hand. Not to mention that RD says Crono was never ressurected, and we know he is from a canon viewpoint.

I never said that the Frozen Flame drained Lavos' energy. Also, Lavos can't just turn it off since the Flame is a seperate part of him, and instead Schala is the one who awakens it. It's the Arbiter => Flame =>Lavos

Also, it was never stated that Crono was never ressurected in RD. Lucca said that she wanted the flame to be buried with a close friend whom died. Yet, you're making it a true fact, when my fact here is that the Flame was in the mammon machine and stated to be so, and not inclined to have been.

People need to put two and two together. If RD has the same Zeal, and the same heros, except that if Crono died, then the Flame is there in CC's Zeal.

And for the record, RD is in the Chrono Universe, it is simply an alternate dimension off the CT one, not outside it.

The Frozen Flame was NEVER mentioned in CT, u can say watever u wish about Belthasar stated something which enhanced human evolution, u can speculate all u want, but the REAL truth was never mentioned

Just because something isn't named, but is said, doesn't mean that it does not have a name. Belthasar had his say, then CC said exactally the same thing, but gave that red shard a name, Lynx called it the same thing. If you can't put two and two together, thats sad.
You have played CC, have you not?

where do u get @ where the FF was incased in Dreamstone?? please state where u obtained this information . .

The Mammon Machine is dreamstone. The Frozen flame is inside it. Like I said above, put two and two together.

I mean really people, The Flame can't come out of nowhere. Where was the flame found? In the Ocean, right where El Nido is. In RD, where Regorria was, that was where the Zealian ruins were, underneath of where Viper Manor was, and where the Flame had been kept and passed down.
Now, why would the Flame be in the ocean? Because it sunk with the Ocean Palace! Duh =.= Belthasar aquired it, and he automatically knew how to control it, but since there was no dreamstone left, he had to construct that device that holds it in the Arbiter room.

[GreenGannon]

Yeah, you put two and two together. Problem is, you got 5.

I mean honestly, RD implies that the Einlanzer was made in Zeal, which we know to be false from CC.

I never believed that the Mammon Machine contained the Frozen Flame, and quite frankly I never will.

[Magus22]

i hav played CC and i can put 2 n 2 together

there is no need for ur intended criticism


u must be aware that there are many many gaps in between all of this

we can only speculate as FANS, we do not know the real truth

sure we could put 2 n 2 together to make something worth seeming right

but in the long run . . . we will never really kno wat happened

[Mystik3eb]

It is assumption to say RD has the exact same past as CT. It has a similar past; that's all we know.

And I dunno about you, but the official art of the Dreamstone looks enough like a shard to pass as such.

In either case, I feel like a broken record, but I've decided to stop considering the Woolsey CT as a bible. I'm waiting for further literal debate until the Retranslation is done.

[Zaperking]

People can't use examples such as the Einlanzer as an example without accepting that RD is a prototype in some areas for CC. Officially, RD is one of the sequals to CT.

Anyway, no one can still answer me how dreamstone can create love and hate and furthur evolve humans, as described by Belthasar as a red shard, when in CC the red shard that did such a thing was the Frozen Flame, which in RD existed inside the Mammon Machine.

RD was after CT. RD builds off some gaps which CT left like what happened to Magus, and things like what Lucca was up too and that the Frozen Flame was there.

[Chrono'99]

Mystik3eb, there's always Kwhazit's translation, which is mostly complete:
http://members.fortunecity.com/kwhazit/trans/ct/index.html

As Mystik3eb said, people would go mad by touching it etc.. But..
Did you also forget that the FF would be encased inside the dreamstone, and also that Schala IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN ACTIVATE THE MAMMON MACHINE, hint hint as to why. Even Queen Zeal could not operate it.

Schala isn't the only person who can activate it. She can activate it not because she is special, but because she has the pendant. Did you forget that even Crono and the party can activate the Machine and charge Marle's pendant? Queen Zeal could probably takes Schala's pendant and do her dirty work by herself, but she doesn't because, as one NPC in Zeal says, Schala is better at magic than her mother.

Anyway, since RD's past is the same as CT's, it's not a stretch.

It isn't. Regionna, Regiorra, and Gerzbuehle exist in RD but don't in CT. Lucca's orphanage in RD is in Regionna, while in CC it's obviously her old house with additional rooms. Also, RD claims that the Einlanzer was forged by "ancient sages", while CC states that the Einlanzer was forged by Dragonians. RD actually gives a very precise indication here despite what one could think, although it's blurred by the different translations: in CT, "Gurus of Zeal" is a Woolseyism, in the Japanese version the 3 guys were called "Sages of Zeal" (Belthasar does say he used to be "a sage of reason" in the American CC).

Not to mention that Luccia adds onto this and says that the Frozen Flame must have been what destroyed a civilization. Why? Because it was responsible for awakening Lavos since Schala awakened it. Through it, the whole fall of Zeal happened.

You're referring to her Frozen Flame quote? The characters actually speaks with Lavos there, so it's normal to hear that Lavos destroyed civilizations.

Also, a thing made of Dreamstone itself can't just absorbed Lavos' energy. It seems pretty weird that people, even though RD furthur explained this, would think that Dreamstone can randomly just absorb energy from a being that is probably about 6km under their planet, without having any sort of connection with it.

Dreamstone can just absorb Lavos' energy. The pendant and the Masamune do just that. Those two items have to be in direct contact with the source though. As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't need to be that close to the source, it's more efficient. Because, you know, it's a machine, which was built specifically for that purpose by brillant mages/scientists. It's not a random block of raw Dreamstone.

I have a question now. If the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine, why was the Machine such an wimpy boss in the Black Omen in CT? If I recall correctly, its only attack was some red explosion that looks like Lucca's Flare. If the Frozen Flame was inside, why didn't it freeze Crono's party, drive them crazy, possess them, or transform them into catmen or something?

Honestly, I do think that the Flame could have been in the Machine, but it would explain as much things as it would contradict other things. It's bound to be "just" an interpretation and not canon nor a solid theory.

[Zaperking]

Schala isn't the only person who can activate it. She can activate it not because she is special, but because she has the pendant. Did you forget that even Crono and the party can activate the Machine and charge Marle's pendant? Queen Zeal could probably takes Schala's pendant and do her dirty work by herself, but she doesn't because, as one NPC in Zeal says, Schala is better at magic than her mother.

Actually, Marle's Pendant didn't activate the Machine. What they did was charge the pendant from the impulses from the machine, that everybody was feeling in the room.

It isn't. Regionna, Regiorra, and Gerzbuehle exist in RD but don't in CT. Lucca's orphanage in RD is in Regionna, while in CC it's obviously her old house with additional rooms. Also, RD claims that the Einlanzer was forged by "ancient sages", while CC states that the Einlanzer was forged by Dragonians. RD actually gives a very precise indication here despite what one could think, although it's blurred by the different translations: in CT, "Gurus of Zeal" is a Woolseyism, in the Japanese version the 3 guys were called "Sages of Zeal" (Belthasar does say he used to be "a sage of reason" in the American CC).

That's exactally why I said past. Also, since RD was a sequal as well as a future plan for CC, obviously things were named differently and changed. The consept of reptites could not have been there since Project Kid was never done. Also, I don't remember it being stated that Lucca's orphanage was in Regorria. What I remember was that Lucca had dealed with Lynx, and when she didn't do something for him, he had Porre destroy her house and have her killed or something alone the lines.
Also, the FF is not dreamstone for one, it's just the shape at the time that they had. It wouldn't make sence for Schala to blame herself over the incident, which she caused by activating the flame, which caused Lavos to wake, if it was not even a part of Lavos.

You're referring to her Frozen Flame quote? The characters actually speaks with Lavos there, so it's normal to hear that Lavos destroyed civilizations.

 
Luccia:
   Ack!
   Vot power...
   Dis power is not somet'ing
   man should possess.
   yes...it is just as I t'ought.
   Several civilizations have
   already been destroyed
   because of dis immense power...
   As you said, my friend...
   Science should only be used
   for the betterhood of mankind,
   no!?

She's talking about the Flames power, and she's not talking to Lavos, she's probably talking to Schala. It's like a telephone. Schala is on the other line, but the Schala that is on the other line is the one with only hatred left in her.

Kid:
   An ancient magical kingdom...?
   That you destroyed
   ten thousand years ago...?
   What are ya talkin' about?
   
   Kid:
   Stop it...
   I don't know nothin'!
   
   I'm...
   I'm Kid!!
   I'm myself and
   nobody else!!

Schala in RD blamed herself for the whole mess. Schala collapsed at the end of that scene in CT, telling everybody to forgive her kingdom and to not blame her mother, and it almost seemed to me as if she started realising that it was her fault for going ahead with it all. In this line, It seems as if Schala is telling Kid the truth of who they are, of the two halves of one that they are, kinda.

Dreamstone can just absorb Lavos' energy. The pendant and the Masamune do just that. Those two items have to be in direct contact with the source though. As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't need to be that close to the source, it's more efficient. Because, you know, it's a machine, which was built specifically for that purpose by brillant mages/scientists. It's not a random block of raw Dreamstone.

It can't absorb it without a physical touching. The Masamune can't just point itself and Magus and absorb his magic, or drain the Mammon Machine by being around it. The Pendant had to touch that little red button (probably a hole that pulsed out the energy) to be regenerated. Ofcourse I know it's not a random piece of dreamstone. But if you look at it, it looks more like some sort of sentient being rather than a machine. That little red dot in the centre, like a hollow piece looks as if something is sitting there. Also, a machine can't just work without a powersource or having some connectiong to something. If the Flame atleast powers the machine, that'd explain one thing. If the flame is inside it, and gives that link, then it explains it. Then the Zealians just got to greedy and wanted the link to be stronger, hence more power, and Lavos awoke.

I have a question now. If the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine, why was the Machine such an wimpy boss in the Black Omen in CT? If I recall correctly, its only attack was some red explosion that looks like Lucca's Flare. If the Frozen Flame was inside, why didn't it freeze Crono's party, drive them crazy, possess them, or transform them into catmen or something?

Well, you can't really ask me. For one, the consept of the Flame being sentient may not have been created at the time. Or that the consept of it freezing people wasn't there. Heck, you know what, nobody freezes by being around it, except in the Dead Sea. Everyone else who was around it never froze. And Wazuki didn't go mad from it. The script said it was that he was maddened by the terror of the image of Serge dying that made him lose his mind, probably done by the flame, but maybe that was because FATE had contact with it again or something. Heck, the flame may even be restricted in the Mammon Machine, and that machine in FATE. Remember how that scientist guy said that he was afraid to do the counter time experiment since they'd let the Frozen Flame lose, and would be exposed to it's anti anihilation energy? Maybe because Chronopolis was down, that anihilation energy was exposed upon Wazuki, but since the Mammon Machine and that big ass machinery in Chronopolis can handle it and are designed to, that may be why.

Honestly, I do think that the Flame could have been in the Machine, but it would explain as much things as it would contradict other things. It's bound to be "just" an interpretation and not canon nor a solid theory.

Well, since an object was stated to enhance humans in CT had a name, but then was named in CC, i'd give it that credit. It's just like with Magus. I don't remember it being stated anywhere that he was Zealian. But we infer that since we know he lived there and is actually Janus. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If people are going to play by those rules, then Magus isn't Zealian, no matter what is inclined, just like what i'm trying to show is. Heck, even Lucca didn't have a last name in CT, and Crono had no mention of a father. Does that mean she has no last name and Crono's mom had a virgin birth? Blah.

[GreenGannon]

No offense Zaper, but that closing argument is a little silly. You've made a comparison between your theory, which is supported by one or two vague quotes, to Magus being Janus, which is if I recall, blatantly stated.