Poll

Is the media's coverage of violence, death, destruction, and chaos in Iraq causing us to lose the war?

Yes.
1 (10%)
No.
9 (90%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: March 27, 2006, 03:53:26 am

Author Topic: CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day  (Read 3128 times)

Radical_Dreamer

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 12:51:28 am »
Quote from: GreenGannon
Still, isn't a bit of a stretch to say we're losing? I mean if you compare to Vietnam or Korea, then we're not losing that many troops. I mean yeah, I understand that *any* death is tragic. But from a statistical standpoint...


Victory in war is not determined by casualties.

GreenGannon

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2006, 12:58:01 am »
Perhaps, but I really think it's being stretched out of proportion.

Sentenal

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 01:29:54 am »
If we measure the war in terms of casualites, we are not loosing.  In terms of battle victorys, we are not loosing.  If we measure it with how willing the public is to continue, its in trouble.  I believe that if we stick with it, we will win.  This war is having some major PR problems.  Not that its all the media's fault, Josh.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 02:06:36 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
If we measure the war in terms of casualites, we are not loosing.  In terms of battle victorys, we are not loosing.  If we measure it with how willing the public is to continue, its in trouble.  I believe that if we stick with it, we will win.  This war is having some major PR problems.  Not that its all the media's fault, Josh.

We aren't losing battles over there either, Sentenal. What we've lost is the peace. Iraq is in an informal civil war, with dozens of civilians murdered every day, people living in reprehensible conditions and untenable fear. You'd rather we focus on only the good news? Did you even watch the video clip at the start of this thread?

There were never enough troops to do what Bush wanted done in Iraq. (It's arguable that even an unlimited number of troops may have been unable to win the "hearts and winds" of the people.) And now, instead of building a democratic ally of Iraq, we have built the war-zone Islamic theocracy of Iraq. I know he can't come out and say it, but George Bush has got to be as pissed off about the way this turned out as anybody. Problem is...it's his damn fault.

Radical_Dreamer

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2006, 02:11:50 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
If we measure the war in terms of casualites, we are not loosing.  In terms of battle victorys, we are not loosing.  If we measure it with how willing the public is to continue, its in trouble.  I believe that if we stick with it, we will win.  This war is having some major PR problems.  Not that its all the media's fault, Josh.


How do you define victory at this point?

GrayLensman

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2006, 02:15:59 am »
You have to ask:

What is the reason for the war?

Is there a viable plan for victory?

Are the objectives leading to victory being met?

Burning Zeppelin

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2006, 03:23:25 am »
Heres my two cents: We fucked up.
Leaving the nation now could do good, but we fucked the country up so much already, that its just become a hellhole.

Mystik3eb

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2006, 06:03:06 am »
We had good intentions, I believe. I don't believe Bush is evil, at all. In fact, I still cringe when I hear people say he's a wannabe dictator or whatever. And I'm not pro-Bush.

However, I can admit that my intial support of the ass-kicking has been thwarted by the fact that I watched the beginning of the invasion...3 years ago. And it was supposedly over...2.5 years ago. Then things got far, far worse than they started, war-wise. Sure, people weren't suffering from an evil, murdering, dishonest, secretive dictator. Now they're suffering from a complete lack of order. Chaos is killing everybody out there.

What causes the chaos? A shitload of rebellion. We didn't attack Iraq. We attacked terrorism. Terrorism is fuckin' scary in size of support. That was not such a great idea, now that I think about it, challenging the world of terror all by ourselves. Sure, higher numbers most likely would've tipped the scales in our favor, even against the entire army of terrorists. But...uh...what support? No one [/exaggeration] supported the cause, which more than pisses me off, but I personally don't know every country's reasons for not supporting.

Still, that should've shown us that we needed a different idea. Just because we're America doesn't make us invincible. We used to think we were. I used to think we were. Now look at us. We're in horrible shape. The average American is unhappy. That, to me, is worse than economic depression, which we are also in to a degree.

My opinion on the media fuddling everything? It's obvious that the media, being written by humans, cannot escape some degree of bias. But I don't believe it made the war any worse. If anything, it's caused more discontent among US civilians, since there's a split of people who call the media the bible, and those who are angry at the fact that they aren't there to see it for themselves and know the complete truth. Apparently, the journalists can't go everywhere and see the complete truth, either. That's disconcerting.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2006, 04:18:23 pm »
Quote from: Mystik3eb
However, I can admit that my intial support of the ass-kicking has been thwarted by the fact that I watched the beginning of the invasion...3 years ago. And it was supposedly over...2.5 years ago. Then things got far, far worse than they started, war-wise. Sure, people weren't suffering from an evil, murdering, dishonest, secretive dictator. Now they're suffering from a complete lack of order. Chaos is killing everybody out there.

What causes the chaos? A shitload of rebellion. We didn't attack Iraq. We attacked terrorism. Terrorism is fuckin' scary in size of support.

I want you to take a second look at what you have said here. You say you originally supported the war. So, if you can remember back to that time, why is it you supported this invasion and subsequent occupation? From the beginning, the Bush administration has had four basic rationales for going to war: 1) take out Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction; 2) punish Saddam for harboring al Qaeda and playing a role in the September 11 attacks; 3) liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam’s brutal rule; and 4) spread democracy across the Middle East in general.

Weapons of mass destruction was the official reason we went to war—the reason that the administration used to sway American public opinion as well as that of the UN, which passed Resolution 1441 in response to the alleged threat by Saddam’s weapons. Condi Rice promised mushroom clouds hanging over American cities, and Colin Powell went before the United Nations with “solid proof” that Iraq had WMDs and meant to use them.

In retrospect, we know these claims to be absolutely false. The Bush administration cherry-picked the intelligence that best fit its policy, rather than letting the policy follow from the intelligence. As a result, we went in expecting to find mobile labs and underground caches, and instead turned up tumbleweeds and dirt. This alone made the war illegal as per the terms of the Congressional resolution authorizing the president to invade Iraq and depose its government. Many Americans were likewise bamboozled; however, those who had supported the war in the first place tended to follow the president as his administration, in the months and years that followed, retroactively devised other principal reasons for invading Iraq.

The other big claim made by the Bush administration prior to and following the invasion was that Saddam harbored al Qaeda and had even played a role in September 11. These allegations were ultimately proved not only to not be true, but to be outright lies. Iraq’s secular Sunni government had no interest in helping his ideological enemies, and no direct links between al Qaeda and Saddam were ever found.

Because you say now that terrorism was your biggest reason for initially supporting the war, I should think you would feel embarrassed and angry at being lied to by our government.

The third reason Bush came up with for having gone to war—after the first two had belly-flopped—was that we needed to depose Saddam and liberate the Iraqi people. We deposed Saddam, all right. But rather than liberating the Iraqi people, we have destroyed their country. Physical infrastructure—water, power, sanitation, roads, etc.—social infrastructure—schools, hospitals, etc.—and economic development—jobs, material wealth, etc.—are all at prewar levels. Stability in Iraq does not exist anymore. Ordinary Iraqis now live under constant fear of many stripes: fear of abuses by Iraqi troops; fear of roving armed militias of every type  who abuse, murder, rape, and pillage; fear of unscrupulous American contractor-mercenaries who earn more than our troops do and have none of the ethical scruples about assaulting or killing civilians; fear of large-scale troop actions that shatter neighborhoods and whole towns while bringing the local economy to a complete halt; and fear of abuses by U.S. troops themselves. This word, “liberation,” when coming from the lips of George W. Bush is as Orwellian as anything Big Brother could have ever dreamed. Indeed, where once Iraq was a country with relatively little terrorist apparatus, now Iraq is the terrorist capital of the world. The violence there breeds new terrorists and gives them live combat training. We have not destroyed terrorism; we have built a terrorism factory. Even once we pull our troops out, Iraq will be a net exporter of terror.

The final reason Bush cites as cause for invading Iraq is a general wish to spread democracy across the Middle East. Reading between the lines reveals this to mean that the president wants pro-US allies in this hostile region. A fair enough desire in principle, but this reasoning never appeared prior to the invasion, and for good reason: Had it been our chief argument to go to war, neither the American people nor the United Nations, nor any other country, would have given the Bush administration a mandate of any sort.

However, with his other justifications in peril, Bush finally came out with this “freedom on the march” mantra of spreading democracy, and cited it as the retroactive justification for the war. But, irony of cruel ironies, if you have followed the news you will have seen what Iraq has done with its newfound “democracy.” It elected an Islamic theocracy that will impose strict laws that repress the whole Iraqi people, whilst simultaneously denouncing the West and the U.S. in particular…basically an Iran Jr. That’s Bush’s idea of democracy? Not even he would be so stupid.

No, the war had no good reason to be prosecuted. It has brought nothing but death and misery to the Iraqis, hatred of America all over the world, and massive economic debt to the people of the United States.

Finally, I want you to realize that what you call “the ass-kicking” has led to dozens of thousands of deaths, as well as the social implosion of an entire country. Millions of people there now live worse lives than they did under Saddam Hussein. Americans are dead by the thousands, and a government that went to war to demonstrate the vastness of US power succeeded in revealing only the limits of that power.

Quote from: Mystik3eb
That was not such a great idea, now that I think about it…

That really is all you needed to say.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2006, 09:14:35 pm »
Yes, Iran sure is a bullshit place. Ever since they took out the American imposed dictator, the Shah, its been going downwards! Damn the Ayatollah for making it better for the people! Damn him!

Magus22

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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2006, 11:38:44 pm »
yah mon

times like today really do suck

proof that us humans are wayyy outta control

ZeaLitY

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CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2006, 12:08:56 am »
Political unrest is nothing new. The 1800s and 1700s are hallmarks of it. Plots to overthrow England existed prior. The medieval age was one constant petty, venal squabble after another, and before that the Romans had much intrigue and distress in their empire. To quote Encounter at Farpoint:

Q

At which time you slaughtered millions in silly arguments about how to divide the resources of your little world. And four hundred years before that you were murdering each other in quarrels over tribal god-images. And since there have been no indications that humans will ever change.....

PICARD

But even as far back as...!... that costume, we had begun to make rapid progress.

~

I believe we can look forward to this progress as education continues.

Speaking of Encounter at Farpoint:

http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/comic.php?ep=encounteratfarpoint&page=1

Mystik3eb

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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2006, 03:01:40 am »
Well, since Josh somehow made me his opposition in this regard, I, nagingly, feel the need to explain myself even further. One of the things that bugs me about politics, liberals in particular, is the need to etch out every fricken detail.

Ok, I supported the war for all four of those reasons, mostly cuz of the third reason, the second one least of all. The first one was a nice bonus, and I didn't care that there weren't any there (besides, we still don't know why we didn't find any; Saddam may have had half a brain to move the WMDs out of the country; why do people discount this possibility? It makes perfect sense to me...*shrug*). Sure, that was the 'excuse' it took to convince everyone else to go in, but I didn't need that. I saw the suffering out there and the evil that rested in power and glory, and got pissed off and wanted to free those people and give Saddam justice. I honestly felt the US were the best for the job.

My 'ass-kicking' referred to the fact that we went in and, in a very very short time, had totally upheaved Saddam and his minions, with no American casualties. A very quick, clean cut. That was my 'ass-kicking'. That ended about the time Bush gave that lovely victory speech on the boat, right before the real war began and we lost big time.

And I want to make it clear that I was WRONG, and I know that now. We failed, horribly, and I know that. That's not a result that comes from the hub-bub caused by the media or vocal liberals. That's the truth. And anyone who still says it can be fixed, or won, is stupid, now that this civil war has begun.

Iraq is fucked, and we, unwillingly, caused it. Wonderful.

Sentenal

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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2006, 03:07:49 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
You'd rather we focus on only the good news?

Come on, Josh, don't put words in my mouth.  I'd like there it be fair coverage, of both good and bad.

Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
How do you define victory at this point?

At this point, I would say that victory would be the creation of a reasonably stable democratic government.  Stability is the problem right now.  Thats why getting the Iraqi security forces up and running to ensure stability is so important.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 03:27:06 am »
Quote from: Mystik3eb
Well, since Josh somehow made me his opposition in this regard, I, nagingly, feel the need to explain myself even further. One of the things that bugs me about politics, liberals in particular, is the need to etch out every fricken detail. (...)

And I want to make it clear that I was WRONG, and I know that now. We failed, horribly, and I know that. That's not a result that comes from the hub-bub caused by the media or vocal liberals. That's the truth. And anyone who still says it can be fixed, or won, is stupid, now that this civil war has begun.

You're a good guy, Mystik. I was not making you the "opposition." If you look at it again I'm not even arguing with you all that much. I'm just rehashing history, because a lot of people still don't realize that a war they once casually supported has failed so spectacularly, and at such an incredible cost in terms of human lives, livelihood, and dollars.

I just want people to realize what their war-lust led to.

In any case, you admitted to being wrong and I have no beef against you. I myself supported the war too, for a while, and I was certainly wrong to do so. Iraq was one of the last straws when it came to me giving the president and his administration the benefit of the doubt on anything.

"Liberals"--or more accurately a small subset of rational-minded people, often including some liberals--often linger on the details and fine points because the truth is easily abused. The Republicans pay their rent by supplanting complex truths with feel-good vagaries. It's wrong, wrong, wrong, and leads us down all sorts of destructive paths. Like it or not, detail is something you have to accept if you want to live an aware life.