I must say, Burning Z, this is one of your best posts yet. You are showing real improvement in your critical thinking, and I think you should put this measure of thought into your arguments more often. People might take you more seriously! Of course, this is not to say that you are not still
wrong on almost every point. =P
But let’s take that as it comes…
You fail to understand me Josh. Just believing doesn't make you a Muslim. You have to abide by the laws. They may be Muslims, but are they good ones? Are they fighting for the right reasons?
It’s not that I fail to understand you. I do think I understand you. I just happen to not agree with a word of it. You are saying, in contravention of the main point I have exhaustively tried to make here over the past two days, that
you are qualified to interpret Islam for everybody else. You are not; you simply are not. There is not enough paper on Earth to write a human code of law so
computer-language exact that every possible human behavior would be unmistakably lawful or unlawful or illegal—or moral or immoral. If other people want to interpret the Koran differently from you, that is tough luck for you, Zeppy. If they interpret the laws differently than you do, you cannot stop them. You are not God, your intellect is not supreme, and you cannot
think for other people.
Before the land of Israel was created, when it was still just Palestine, why did both parties live in relative peace? Maybe the whole thing is just being based off the fact that Britain just took land and gave it to the Jews. Is that not wrong?
Before Israel was created, the region was (comparatively) more peaceful than it later became because Arab nationalism was still in its infancy, and also because there was no organized Israeli enemy to unite against.
Arab nationalism is a virulent partner to militant Islam. What the collapse of the British Empire did to Africa, so did the collapse of the Ottoman Empire do to this Middle Eastern region. The Arab states that emerged from the imperial wreckage of the past were immature, warlike, and greedy. The swells running these countries had heads full of steam, and their regional leadership was very poor. And Islam, lest you forget, was the common vein that ran beneath every border.
And then there was Israel. The Palestinian Jews lived beneath the Ottomans, and when that empire crumbled the whole region became a British mandate. Most of that land became Transjordan; what remained was tentatively divided between a Jewish state and a second Arab state. The Jews were content with their lot, but the pre-Palestinian Muslims were not. The rest is history; Israel declared its independence, was recognized by most of the world’s governments, and subsequently reinforced its sovereignty on the field of battle.
Together with these countries’ unintelligent nationalism and their irrational hatred of Israel, where once there was relative stability, now there was religious war. So it went. Is this the fault of Israel or the Jews? Only if the culpability for a rape lies with the victim, for having provided a body for the rapist to ravage. What Islam seeks to dominate, is not necessarily Islam’s to dominate.
But of course, Islam has been brought into this, and I must concede, is a major factor now. But neither of us can argue in this way, as I believe in a "Great Plan" and you don't. We believe that Zionism is evil, and is part of the plan. Obviously you don't. We believe that the Anti Christ will be the leader of Israel. Again, you don't. You can argue that this is obvious anti-Judaism. I like to think of it as anti-Zionism. This Zionism movement is actually prophecised to bring on the destruction of the world.
Do you have any idea how many people on this board believe I am going to Hell? It’s probably the only thing you religious types can all agree on. I’ll bet you guys even have cocktail parties!
“I know we can’t agree on much, chaps, but at least we can gather here tonight and toast our fantastic consensus that this Josh character is quite going to Hell…”
I bring this up because, from where I’m sitting, you guys are seriously fucking nuts. Nuts and fucked up, aye. Look at you, arguing that Islam hasn’t played a role in the wars of the Middle East! And when confronted with the fact that in fact Islam has been up to its bloody
neck in these wars? Blame Israel! Come on; what does Israel have to do with Islam being a bloody religion? What does Israel have to do with your claim that warmongering Muslims are not true Muslims? This entire thread is a testament to the neuroticism of Islamic apologists and the irrationality of Israel-haters. Israel is there, it isn’t going anywhere; it doesn’t belong in Australia and it certainly doesn’t belong in Antarctica. Israel has no place in this discussion other than that it is a victim of a powerful, aggressive religion—Islam.
Your “Great Plan” is not something that rational people
ought to believe in. Have you ever read
Time Cube theory? When you rail against Israel, it’s the same brand of
WHAT THE FUCK?!On the subject of the modern Palestinian people, there can be no doubt that suffering abounds and the Palestinian Territories should become the sovereign nation of Palestine without delay. The would-be permanent borders are obvious. The people are tired of violence and poverty; so are the Israelis. Only the scourge of religion can explain why the dispute continues, and your religion—Islam—has been the one sustaining this whole debacle. I can imagine how ordinary Palestinians feel; they feel the same way Americans felt about Iraq when President Bush promised us that Saddam Hussein was planning to nuke our cities. Most Americans got caught up in a fervor that had nothing to do with the truth. So it is for the Palestinians: In a society where hating Israel is taught at a younger age than the alphabet, all under the auspices of Islamic doctrine, you can understand why these people are so fucking insane. Your religion has been the enabler of that. And
you give your explicit approval to this continued insanity by interjecting the Israeli Bogeyman into your colorful apology for, and denial of, the motives for Islamic radicals who monger war in the name of their god. Islam is not an Israeli problem. Islam is an Islamic problem.
I am not going to argue with you Josh about how bloodthirsty and violent Islam supposedly is. Even though almost all ideological movements have caused in death, you still point the finger at Christianity and Islam.
I point the finger because Christianity and Islam have been the biggest sponsors of murder and oppression in the history of the world, and in any case they are by far the biggest sponsors of these crimes in the year 2006. (Say what you will about President Bush; it’s all true. But at least he’ll be gone in 2008. Religion won’t.)
I could point my finger in many other directions; for instance I might wag my finger at the communist guerilla insurgencies wreaking havoc in a number of countries at this very moment. But I am not interested in wasting my time. This is a matter of scale and proximity. The monotheistic religions of Tweedledee and Tweedledum are giants whose shadows cover the whole world I know and most of the world I don’t. They threaten civilization itself; they are the secular person’s Satan. The believe in enslaving women, killing disbelievers, destroying countries, renouncing science, and would probably make their belief in the end of the world a self-fulfilling prophecy. Communist guerillas, however sick their crimes, are not a threat to humanity in general, and certainly not to the United States.
My finger is like a malice magnet; it points at the strongest forces of evil in our world. I am not denying other injustices that live around us today; I am highlighting the most egregious of them.
Islam is no longer a together religion. You can see this from the sectarian violence in Iraq. God says, and possibly one of the many in your collection of burn-in-hell lines, that those who kill believers intentionally will burn in hell. Then why is it that Muslims are...killing Muslims!? The ummah is broken, and Muslims, in a Zionistic way, believe that one day we will become one again. There is no Muslim Caliphate. Even the Ayatollahphate in Iran isn't 100% correct.
It is certainly true that Islam is a beast with no head, each of its thousand oozing limbs running amok in its own particular way, some doing great harm and others slithering along benignly. You are correct in this much. But if a person wants to call himself or herself a Muslim, then that is how it must be, for devotion to God answers to no earthly authority. (As I have said ad nauseam, to little effect.) As surely as the followers of Southern Baptism and Greek Orthodoxy both call themselves a Christian people, so too are the sects of Islam diverse. You ask why it is that Muslims would kill Muslims if the Koran says the punishment for this is Hell, but the answer should be obvious even to you, because you persist in making the same mistake in logic that they make: When one Muslim perceives that another Muslim stands in the way of God’s will, the former will be inclined to allege that the latter is somehow not a true Muslim. “Peaceful” Muslims like yourself may be content simply to denounce these “untrue” Muslims, but terrorist Muslims may resort to bloodshed. This is yet another way of understanding why your refusal to accept that Islamic militancy has everything to do with Islam is such a dangerous denial of the truth.
Correct meaning in the proper ways according to Sharia.
Same problem as before: People will interpret this code differently. (Also, I cannot let slip a reference to Sharia without reiterating that it is the most despicable instrument of pure flagitious cruelty that our world has seen in centuries. It is a testament to the very worst fabric within human nature. Anyone who tries to impose this sick little scheme of mis-ethics onto other people, should be dragged out into the street and shot.)
How you can judge the actions of the Hamas version of Islam, with the ways of say, Islam R' Us, is beyond me. They are in hardly any way connected, only connected in the way of "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Final Messenger." Faith wise, yes, they are all correct. But each have their own ideas.
Different limbs, same beast. The proposition that Hamas Islam and Teddy Bear Islam are so different that neither are actually Islam is a nonstarter. This claim makes as little sense to me as the claim by some in the Religious Right that Catholics are not true Christians.
The Islamic society in my school doesn't wish to bomb the school because it is secular. It is not like they don't talk to Jewish people; heck, some of my friends are Jewish! Yet of course they wish to be united. Of course they wish the best for the Muslims. They might not necessarily support Hamas, or the Algerian Islamic Party, or the Nigerian Government, or what ever. However they wish for the best of the INNOCENT Muslims. Bosnia, Chechnya, Palestine, Iraq, China; all of it.
Uh huh. This is a contradiction of your last quote. Here you describe a common theme that unites them into a common religion. There are many other customs, traditions, and beliefs which also unite disparate Muslim sects into a relative state of like-mindedness.
That is part of the reason I support Palestine. The other part is from true, objective views. My sister did Modern History; such as Ireland, and of course Palestine, and from her comments, I say Palestine is right. But she is also part of a feminist association. She does not like Iran. Wow, is she looking at Palestine from a...objective point of view!
Not having read them, I cannot speak to your sister’s remarks. However, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. If you are unable to prove your arguments yourself, it is not enough to invoke somebody else’s name as though their authority by itself will do the job for you.
As for 99% of your quotes about burning in hell...what are you trying to prove? That God will send the disbelievers into Hell? Um...ok...thanks Josh, I knew that already! It's a great thing to have you here to teach me things I would obviously forget after hearing it for ten years 
Remember how you were denying that Islam is a militant, cruel, and bloodthirsty religion? I just thought a few hundred supporting examples from your own holy text would help persuade you to abandon your denials. I can find a few hundred more, if you like. Somehow I doubt it will change your mind.
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