Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Daniel Krispin]

Why must the religion govern, though?

[Burning Zeppelin]

Because that is what Islam is. Not a religion, but a way of life.

[Legend of the Past]

And, well, Legend, I don't think we can argue about this at all, because we believe the Jews broke the treaty of Al Medina. So...case closed on that matter.

How can the Jews break a treaty they never signed or agreed upon...? Muhammad said he won't attack them for ten minutes, the Jews aren't Muhammad. See, this is pointless, Muhammad needed a scapegoat, and when the Jews refused to join, he decided to revise Islam. First he says God sent him the Quran and makes all those cool holidays, AND THEN CHANGES THEM.

Um...what?

Okay, first he comes by, and says: "Hey everyone, God told me to make a new religion! You're all invited!" Those people lived nearby Jews and saw their religion. Muhammad made customs and holidays which are terribly reminiscent of the Jewish ones. So far it's all good and nice. I'd even say that makes sense-We all serve under the same God, so it makes sense that he'd give Muhammad similar instructions.

But when the Jews refused to join Islam, Muhammad changed all those things he said. How can you change something God told you, what, did God say: 'Oh, wait, wrong religion, here's the REAL things you should do!'? That's utter bullshit.

Muhammad wanted everyone to love him. He was a very talented person, I'll give you that: He could unite all those people under a single religion. But come on, if I were to come and say: 'Hey, BZ, God told me to make a new religion! Join me!', would you HONESTLY believe me?

[Legend of the Past]

And, well, Legend, I don't think we can argue about this at all, because we believe the Jews broke the treaty of Al Medina. So...case closed on that matter.

How can the Jews break a treaty they never signed or agreed upon...? Muhammad said he won't attack them for ten minutes, the Jews aren't Muhammad. See, this is pointless, Muhammad needed a scapegoat, and when the Jews refused to join, he decided to revise Islam. First he says God sent him the Quran and makes all those cool holidays, AND THEN CHANGES THEM.

Um...what?

Okay, first he comes by, and says: "Hey everyone, God told me to make a new religion! You're all invited!" Those people lived nearby Jews and saw their religion. Muhammad made customs and holidays which are terribly reminiscent of the Jewish ones. So far it's all good and nice. I'd even say that makes sense-We all serve under the same God, so it makes sense that he'd give Muhammad similar instructions.

But when the Jews refused to join Islam, Muhammad changed all those things he said. How can you change something God told you, what, did God say: 'Oh, wait, wrong religion, here's the REAL things you should do!'? That's utter bullshit.

Muhammad wanted everyone to love him. He was a very talented person, I'll give you that: He could unite all those people under a single religion. But come on, if I were to come and say: 'Hey, BZ, God told me to make a new religion! Join me!', would you HONESTLY believe me?

Seriously, religion and politics don't mix. They never have.

They have here.

When they do, things get messy, almost all the time.

Messy like that certain area filled with Jews and Arabs around the Mediterrainian?

[Leebot]

Seriously, religion and politics don't mix. They never have.

They have here.

They may seem to mix for a Jew living in Israel, but what about someone who grows up there and turns atheist (or agnostic or Christian or Muslim...)? Religion might not seem to mix so well.

This does make one wonder what would happen to Israel if the Muslim attacks suddenly ceased. In many parts of the world, Jews are quite peaceful, but over there they've been engaged in a non-stop war. A warlike society doesn't suddenly turn peaceful; they'll just find new wars. Look at America after World War II, they kept finding foreign war after foreign war to get involved in. I doubt Israel would be any different. They might even return to the military-messianic society of thousands of years ago.

Right now, Israel looks like the victim, as America did in World War II (remember, they did get attacked before entering the war--though no one would blame them if they got involved in that particular conflict earlier). Remove the war, and, like America, they could easily turn into the aggressor.

[Legend of the Past]

Israel is war-torn. We don't enjoy wars. That's why we constantly struggle to get peace with our neigbhors, to make sure that if the Palestinians would stop their assaults, we could stay in peace.

[Burning Zeppelin]

And, well, Legend, I don't think we can argue about this at all, because we believe the Jews broke the treaty of Al Medina. So...case closed on that matter.

How can the Jews break a treaty they never signed or agreed upon...? Muhammad said he won't attack them for ten minutes, the Jews aren't Muhammad. See, this is pointless, Muhammad needed a scapegoat, and when the Jews refused to join, he decided to revise Islam. First he says God sent him the Quran and makes all those cool holidays, AND THEN CHANGES THEM.

Um...what?

Okay, first he comes by, and says: "Hey everyone, God told me to make a new religion! You're all invited!" Those people lived nearby Jews and saw their religion. Muhammad made customs and holidays which are terribly reminiscent of the Jewish ones. So far it's all good and nice. I'd even say that makes sense-We all serve under the same God, so it makes sense that he'd give Muhammad similar instructions.

But when the Jews refused to join Islam, Muhammad changed all those things he said. How can you change something God told you, what, did God say: 'Oh, wait, wrong religion, here's the REAL things you should do!'? That's utter bullshit.

Muhammad wanted everyone to love him. He was a very talented person, I'll give you that: He could unite all those people under a single religion. But come on, if I were to come and say: 'Hey, BZ, God told me to make a new religion! Join me!', would you HONESTLY believe me?

Again...what?
The holidays are the same because it is generally the same religion. Such as Ashurah~Yom Kippur. The date didn't change. And he never said he made the same religion, he said he came and is saying what the previous prophets said. And his main audience weren't the Jews, it was the entire world, and therefore he wouldn't just change stuff for the minority.

[Legend of the Past]

Previous Prophet. Prophet. The Jews never had a Prophet. Moses was not a Prophet, he just lead the Jews to Israel.

[Burning Zeppelin]

According to wikipedia he is your prophet.

[Lord J Esq]

I don't see how we believe in enslaving women. Or how we have.

Then you are blind to the greatest evil humanity has ever performed. You not only know nothing of women's status in history, but you even know nothing of women's status in the here and now. Whatever sick belief you have regarding the "place" of women must be sick indeed for you to overlook the plight of women in every nation on Earth that adheres to Sharia, and many others that do not. There is not a country on Earth today where women's rights are equal, let alone superior, to men's rights.

I remember in a past thread you told me that it is okay for husbands to beat their wives "a little." No comment you have made before or since captures your inherent sexism quite so well as that one, but everything you have ever said on the subject has reinforced, to those who are sane of mind that indeed your sexism is so deeply rooted in you that you truly are completely blind to it. Every defense you have ever erected on your own behalf has only gone to show just how odious sexism truly is.

Of all your personal failings, Zeppelin, this one is by far the worst.

We united most of the world in 700-1300 AD. We killed the disbelievers who fought us.

Yes, truly, this proves Islam is a religion of peace. What was I thinking?

I don't give a fuck what others tell me. I'm my own man. Tell me Josh, was there not bloodshed before the Birth of Christ? Religion has played a part in many a war. But not only religion. Land, possession, betrayal, lust, all. Until you some how destroy the root of all evil, otherwise known as humanity, war will not cease to exist.

Yes, there was bloodshed before Christ. No, this does not excuse the ample bloodshed carried out in the name of tribal god images, including Islam.

The root of all evil is not humanity. The root of all evil is ignorance. Ignorance, be it unknowing or willful. Religion is a kind of willful ignorance: A rejection of objective reality for a reassuring fantasy that helps people find meaning in their lives, but whose execution has been a disaster to the entire human race. Nearly all of the things you mentioned as pretexts for war--land, possession, betrayal, lust--were justified in religious terms, and holy wars, "blessed" by a god, account for much of the warfare waged since the dawn of civilization. From the Palestinians today, to the Crusaders of the Middle Ages, to the classical Greeks, to the ancient Sumerians, war and religion have been so intimate with one another as to make us wonder if they are not indeed the same thing.

Blame religion. I don't care. I can just go blaming America. Or Israel. Patriotism. Fuck, I could go as far as blaming left handers! There will always be someone to blame. You can blame Islam. Muslims can blame Israel. People can blame God. It will never end.

It isn't enough to blame whatever you like. If there is no merit to your blame, then the blame itself is unjust. America has its share of blame in mongering war; patriotism certainly does. Are these the ultimate enemies of peace? No, they are the supporting cast. God is the ultimate enemy to peace. God is the ultimate excuse for people to indulge their basest desires with no regard for life, limb, livelihood, and land. God, be it an individual person's private spirituality or an organized religion's official dogma, is the little voice in our heads that tells us to do what should not be done. There's an old saying: "God's in His Heaven; all's right with the world." So true!

I can see where you are going again Josh. I hate nationalism as much as you. But as you know, they are proud people. This came before Islam. Islam taught to destroy the idea of nationalism, only the idea of being under God. Islam isn't necessarily the catalyst of the war, though it does play part. Can you not understand! Israel came and took land from the Arabs! Their giant empire, having a spot in the middle! And most likely, their love for Islam, and their blind following probably resulted in them thinking that "OMG! These dirty Jews took it!". I am not making sense, I know, but I have this giant headace that won't go away.

This "headache" is probably the truth pounding on your temples. Here you are as close to acknowledging the truth as you have been in our entire debate.

How bout this. What if Palestine just became a state. The entire Israel would be Palestine. It would be secular, just like one of its neighbours, Egypt. Then how would you feel? The only reason the Israeli state was formed was because of THEIR religion. THEY wanted a land, a State of God.

If Israel had been established as a secular state, with Jews in the minority, there would have been another Holocaust. How fortunate for the Jews, to be so despised by their Muslim neighbors that only a Jewish state would give them a chance to survive. Islamic fervor shot itself in the foot, here.

Why you have the image that Islam condones oppression is beyond me. It is true that Muslims kill apostates, I know, and if you find the cruel, so be it. I will not argue with you on that point.

This rubbish speaks for itself. What was it I said earlier, about how one delusional person is considered insane, but a billion are considered devout?

But I must ask, what DO you know of Islam? I don't mean the history, and the carnage and shit. I mean what it means to be a Muslim?

At this point, you may not realize it, but you are setting yourself up as the butt of a joke. No, Burning Z, if we are not talking about "the history, and the carnage and shit," I do not know what it means to be a Muslim--other than that it might be a fancy word for criminal insanity.

Tell me, what is so bad about Sharia?

I would like you to list for us every country and territory that adheres to Sharia. You will answer your own question for me.

The closest you can get [to an example of correct adherence to Sharia] is Iran, and even Iran is fucked up. Killing the raped? What the fuck!?

Yep, Iran is one. Keep going. Oh, and don't forget Iran's policy of killing sexually independent women, socially independent women, gays, children, nonbelievers, little kittens...well, I don't know about the little kittens. It wouldn't surprise me. Then of course there is the slavery of women, the fact that their lives are valued just slightly above that of rancid trash. Even their testimony in court is inferior to a man's! Sharia treats women as not human. And, women aside, the entire free population is oppressed by a severe theocratic tyranny!

Yes, Iran is one country that aspires to impose "perfect" Sharia. Go on and tell us the rest.

Anyways, on to why you think Sharia is bad. Because it supports the death penalty? It doesn't necessarily demote the rank of women. It does not make man and women one. It is because they are different. An Islamic state would rather want men to be in, say, the engineering industry, and want women to be in the nursing industry. Because they are not the same. It depends on where you stand.

Men and women are not different. Men and women are human beings. They are exactly the same thing. The differences between them are cosmetic.

Just like how I can't judge the worlds muslims, who are you to judge what is right and what is wrong? What is ethical and what is not?

The reason I am entitled to judge what is right and wrong is because my system of ethics is based upon reason. In other words, good and evil can be measured! You, in contrast, base your ethics on a system of morality taken on faith to be the will of God. Your ethics are inherently untestable, unfalsifiable, and cannot be codified by a mortal being or corporeal institution. You cannot speak for anyone but yourself, whereas I can speak for every human being. Your implicit acceptance of faith when you show faith in God forbids you from questioning other people's faith, which in turn forbids you from passing worldly judgment on them. In this way, all religious strife is based upon a fallacious pretext.

Ironically, your next quote is exactly contrary to the truth:

You can't call something sick and wrong. However I can, because I believe in a God. And that God tells me what is right and what is wrong. You may not belive in God, yet I do. Therefore I believe I have that right, while you don't (in my opinion)

The delusion to which you subscribe has turned your world inside-out. I cannot imagine the terror you would experience to consider, even for a moment--to truly consider it--that your entire world is wrong, and your greatest beliefs false.

You asked me once how I would feel if I died and found myself confronting your god. I answered, truthfully, that it'd prolly scare the shit out of me. As a rational person, objectively-minded, I can consider hypothetical scenarios. You, however, cannot, and this is why it is so difficult for you to conceive of a world where your religion is simply the shared delusion of billions of people.

Much of what you have said in your last post, as well as many of your others, is an awful bore for me to reply to. For the most part, the resolution of the points on which you force the debate is so painfully obvious that it seems almost a waste of time to argue on behalf of what most people would plainly see. If only you could step outside of your religion and into the real world for a while, you would save me a lot of trouble. Likewise, if only religious people everywhere could do the same thing, the world would be far better a place.

Oh no! Islam is so militant because God will make disbelievers burn in Hell! Seriously, Josh, this is one of the stupidest things you have ever said. Try and look more deeper into it. Islam believes that almost all of the rewards and the wraths will come after the Day of Judgement. I am not sure if you are Nihilistic or not, but obviously, Islam isn't. Just because  God will make disbelievers burn in Hell, doesn't support any of your "Islamismilitant" views.

Islam is militant because Islamic militants are so abundant. These are people whose religion gives them the language, the imagery, and the justification to commit murder, rape, terrorism, violence, and injustice in general.

I am not a nihilist. Do you even know what that word means? In any case, nihilism is one of the Three Deplorable Isms in my personal philosophy. (Yeah, I've got my own philosophy.) It isn't nihilistic to conclude that Islamic militants base their militancy on Islam. You end your post on a note of gibberish.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Josh...wow. You are henceforth known as the "most intelligent person of all time." Of course, just because you are intelligent doesn't make you right. You view certain events, certain laws, in a different perspective. Of course, every human has a different perspective on these. It just so happens that I believe I am right, and I believe you are wrong, just like how you believe I am an evil, dastardly villianous fourteen year old, and that you are the ruler of the world.
 

I remember in a past thread you told me that it is okay for husbands to beat their wives "a little." No comment you have made before or since captures your inherent sexism quite so well as that one, but everything you have ever said on the subject has reinforced, to those who are sane of mind that indeed your sexism is so deeply rooted in you that you truly are completely blind to it. Every defense you have ever erected on your own behalf has only gone to show just how odious sexism truly is.

I never said that. In fact, calling me sexist is total proof that you believe that everything is right from your perspective. A woman could believe that a guy wanting to have sex with her is sexist. Another might believe that a state making her cover modestly is sexist. Another man might believe that a state making him pay for all expenses is sexist.

Women and men are not the same. One has the balance of hormones tipped in a way, and the other, the other way. One is better in the "right" brain side, while the other, the "left."

My comment on whether you know Islam or not was to see whether you know what makes a Muslim. Obviously you don't know.

About the last point, I mean why are you saying Islam is militant just because God makes disbelievers go to Hell?

And that pounding headache came after a day of playing Rugby -.-

[Lord J Esq]

I remember in a past thread you told me that it is okay for husbands to beat their wives "a little." No comment you have made before or since captures your inherent sexism quite so well as that one, but everything you have ever said on the subject has reinforced, to those who are sane of mind that indeed your sexism is so deeply rooted in you that you truly are completely blind to it. Every defense you have ever erected on your own behalf has only gone to show just how odious sexism truly is.

I never said that.

You said that on Nov. 19 in this post in the topic "Evolution, it's not just a theory":

Ah, sorry for making assumptions, but that is what your entire...style of talking implied.
Believe what you wish, women aren't oppressed by the doctrine. They are oppressed by the people. Not by the Holy Teachings(now I know that you don't believe that the Qu'ran (also, when I said the Holy Book I mean't Qu'ran) is holy, but just bear with my point of view). God recognises men and women as different. Let's look at lions, shall we? The male protects the clan. The male is stronger. The female gets the food. The female is stealthier. This is like humanity. This is like Islam. Islam teaches that the female should look after the family, cook and clean, listen to her husband. The husband has an obligatory stance to provide for the ENTIRE family, no matter how rich his wife is. He must look after her, and care for her, and sexually please her. Ok, the husband is allowed to beat her, but very, very lightly. In fact, if the man beats her hard, the woman can go to court about it, and she can beat him as hard as he beat her. And of course, she is allowed to divorce. No dishonour to her, not chasing after her, plotting to kill her. No evil deadly curses and giant mechs. Just simple. Then people say that they aren't allowed to do anything. Lets go back to the lion analogy. The lion is the leader. In humanity, the man does all the financial stuff, so there is no need for the women to do such things. AND YES, they are allowed friends! SHOCK! HORROR! Islam bases itself on dignity, and therefore it despises promiscosity. Thats why they aren't allowed to look good in front of other men. Men are more lustful then women. Period. But in this society, it seems that women are being lured into pornography, prostitution and other things to please men.
Of course, this is not my crusade to topple democracy. I have no problem with democracy. In Sharia, people vote for the leader. Yes! Vote! But while Islam bases itself on the speakings of God, Democracy bases itself on the whims of man. Here in Australia, there are new, very unfair industrial reforms, that I have posted previously in some thread. How has this been done? Well, the Liberals won the senate. Full majority. Nothing to stop them. Not even the giant protest some days ago. Whereas in Islam you can oppose them any time, you can't here.
Now, I detest Saudia Arabia, Iran and the Taliban as much as you Lord J. This is not Islam. Anyways, I don't care if you don't like Islam, even the original. It's your life.
As for the question, I think your first answer was more of what I was thinking. And God hasn't predetermined anything. He just knows when everything will happen.
And Zeality, I'm not sure of the others, but I have noe resentment at all, not even Lord J who opposes my views in almost every single way.

It took me a few minutes, but I found it. And besides your remarks in that thread, I also found something you said on the subject of adultery:

One supposed paragraph said the prophet condoned a man for killing his slave, who was also a pregnant. This is probably untrue because in the Quran the woman who adultered went up to the prophet and said kill me because i have done this sin. But the prophet waited a while before killing, after she gave birth.

[Radical_Dreamer]

I'm gonna nitpick here, and say in Norway men occupy a position (in the law) superior to men. I assert that this is the case because Norway has laws requiring that a certain proportion of executives of companies be female.

This is brazenly sexist, and the fact that it favors women does not change nor does it justify this fact.

BZ, what you are failing to realize when Josh says that men and women are the same is that he is operating at a higher level of abstraction than you. Are men and women identical? No, of course not. Their are physiological differences, including several in the brain*. But that is beneath the scope of what Josh is talking about. Men and women are equally capable of most  tasks, and certainly any political or buisneuss task. The fact that more men are engineers than women does not imply that men make better engineers than women. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Men and women are different, but these differences are trivial when one considers issues of political and social standing.

*For example, women have a much larger corups collosum than men. That's the bridge of neurons between the two hemispheres of the brain.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Yeah, Josh, that is allowed in my religion. But I didn't create that religion, now did I? Take that comment in any way you should. And the punishment for adultery is the same for both sexes. Say it is barbaric, but it isn't sexist.

And why make both sexes strive to be exactly the same when they can both excel in what they're good at!    Why do you think almost all the time the woman wins at taking custody of the children? And yes, that is why most Muslim scholars agree that women can be clerics and leaders...

Something on Wikipedia gained my attention...

...He [Mahmoud Ahmadinejad] also called for Israel to be relocated to Germany, or Austria, arguing it was these nations that persecuted the Jews, so they should carry the responsibility, not Palestinians forsaking their land to form a state of Israel...

Well then, obviously the war started due to Zionism.

[Legend of the Past]

Islam initally was a very feministic religion, according to my Islam class. Muhammad demanded that men 'respect their women and be good to them', and the whole one men-four women marriage part was said to have been because many men died in wars, and Muhammad said so that women don't stay helpless, they would have to share a man. Intrestingly enough, that happaned around the same time Muhammad started marrying more then one woman.

The problem is that Muslims act terribly towards women, but they aren't ordered to do so by religion. I can't say I remember (Or maybe ever knew) their excuse for the terrible behavior men have towards women.