Lavos, Mammon Machine, and the Time Devourer

[GrayLensman]

I posted this before but here i go again, how come we don't give enough credit to the Frozen Flame?  Somebody tell me what the Frozen Flame is?  We all know that it fell (or detached purposely) from Lavos.

The text makes it very clear that the Frozen Flame was an actual part of Lavos that separated in 65 million BC and not a foreign entity.  I think the Frozen Flame was something like a specialized Lavos Bit, which was used to interact with the outside world.

Lynx:
   This is the essence of what
   descended from the heavens
   in the prehistoric age.
   The living crimson stone...
   the Frozen Flame!

Belthasar:
   The Frozen Flame is a
   splinter from the extra-
   terrestrial being Lavos.

[USD1]

Lavos never leaves his pocket dimension — Crono and company arrive in the pocket dimension from outside, whether through the bucket, the Black Omen, or the Epoch. The only time he theoretically would leave is on the Day of Lavos itself, but such an event is prevented by the time-travelers, and even going through the bucket, they enter Lavos's outer shell which reverts into the PD anyway.
 

But you see, thats part of my theory, that Lavos has actually been -trapped- in the Pocket dimension since the Zealian incident. This would explain why hes also weaker since he can no longer drain energy from the planet, and since time passes differently in his dimension it could be millions of years (for him) before he can figure out a way to escape.

That and Lavos feared the day Zealian technology would advance to the point that they would no longer be dependent on the energy and could thus destroy him without any ill effect on their own society.

Theres no real point in killing something that has only been beneficial to you. The only reason Crono stopped him was because he decimated the surface of the planet in 1999. If Lavos had risen in 1999 and given everyone flowers and thanked them for their help I seriously doubt everyone would be like "omg wtfzor kill the being that was feeding on thermal energy and helping us, like dude!"

I really don't believe the Entity had much of anything to do with the Zeal catastrophe, unless there's a theory I haven't reviewed yet. Lavos never truly left his pocket dimension (choosing instead to reproduce Lavos Spawn whenever such an excursion might be necessary), and there isn't really any solid theory on the Mammon Machine's two likenesses — from what I can decipher, the most popular explanation is that the Mammon Machine contains a pocket dimension within it housing its true form and the Frozen Flame as an extra layer of protection, or that it exists in the same PD as Lavos himself.

Ya thats part of my theory about the entity getting mixed up with lavos and the mammon machine. About the mammon machine theres an EXELLENT episode of the old twilight zone that can show what I mean perfectly if you get your hands on it. A portal to the 4th dimension opens in this mans house, behind his daughters bed. She enters and can only be heard. When the man enters to find his daughter, he appears whole in that dimension. Yo the others outside helping him, however, he only has his torso inside. A perfect example of what I mean, it just makes sense to me. Look it up on Wikipedia the name of the episode is "Little Girl Lost", or rent it! Goddamn I just found the post by Zeality about this, I thought I was original.

Yeah, I don't think Lavos wakes up one morning to his usual breakfast of bacon, eggs, and spiky-haired protagonists thinking, "Hrm, why don't I emerge on 26 February 1999 around, oh, 13:36? I hear those bozos on the surface are planning a carnival, and I'd just love to crash the party!" It's not really an arbitrary date as much as Lavos has absorbed enough DNA and energy from the planet to migrate elsewhere and spread his Spawn across the universe. Then again, the Japanese are more in-tune to Nostradamus and the other philosophers with their year 1999 as the end of the world, so that might have influenced the programmers' decision.

I don't mean that Lavos CHOSE a date at all. I mean since time passes differently in the Pocket Dimension it may have taken Lavos a certain amount of time to escape, whether 1 hour or 10 million years, trying to use his new found temporal information and ended up escaping in 1999. Like The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe only lavos stayed for 10000000 years(day or more in Narnia) and it was a much shorter time for outsiders (5 minutes passed in the real world).

[AuraTwilight]

But you see, thats part of my theory, that Lavos has actually been -trapped- in the Pocket dimension since the Zealian incident. This would explain why hes also weaker since he can no longer drain energy from the planet, and since time passes differently in his dimension it could be millions of years (for him) before he can figure out a way to escape.

Lavos can leave his Pocket dimension at any time. We KNOW this to be true. And it's generally accepted that Lavos was only stronger in that battle to keep you from changing the story and beating him.

Theres no real point in killing something that has only been beneficial to you. The only reason Crono stopped him was because he decimated the surface of the planet in 1999. If Lavos had risen in 1999 and given everyone flowers and thanked them for their help I seriously doubt everyone would be like "omg wtfzor kill the being that was feeding on thermal energy and helping us, like dude!"

But Lavos is destined to destroy Man, so Man has to strike first. As does Lavos have to destroy Man so they don't strike first.

I don't mean that Lavos CHOSE a date at all. I mean since time passes differently in the Pocket Dimension it may have taken Lavos a certain amount of time to escape, whether 1 hour or 10 million years, trying to use his new found temporal information and ended up escaping in 1999. Like The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe only lavos stayed for 10000000 years(day or more in Narnia) and it was a much shorter time for outsiders (5 minutes passed in the real world).

Or it was just time to prepare the nest for the Spawn.

[ChronoMagus]

But Lavos is destined to destroy Man, so Man has to strike first. As does Lavos have to destroy Man so they don't strike first.

Furthermore Lavos needed to destroy Man in order to give his Spawn an environment to live in.  Man always has been the dominant competitive force that drains and wastes resources.  No man = more resources for Spawn.
Lavos does not care if we praise him.  He is practically an all mighty deity (relative to humans of 1999 AD) who can defeat the Entity.  He has no use for praise.  Praise is not food or energy to him.  Praise is just ignorant bastards trying to please him, except he does not wish it.  
Lavos raised us like wheat, and it was time for the sickle to harvest it.

Lavos is a reproductive being who plans on expanded his species.  Like all other organisms he follows a reproductive cycle.
The Lavos cycle is (Assuming Crono did not see the display in 2300 AD of the Apocalypse):

Birth (We do not know this of the great Lavos but the Spawn probably were born on the Earth)
Early Spawn Development (We see this of the Spawn of Lavos)
Departure from Birth World (We must assume Lavos did not start out in the middle of space and had a home world, and also that the Spawn would not see the Earth as a good place to stay)
Landing on New World (65 Mil BC)
Absorbtion and Analyzation of Life (65 Mil BC - 1999 AD, interuption at 12000 BC by the Kingdom of Zeal)
Purge of Life (1999 AD - Apocalypse)
Creation of Spawn (1999 AD - 2300 AD)
Death (1999 AD+ ??? People say by 2300 AD Lavos has died or at least retired from the grand scheme of things  The only sign of Lavos left is Death Peak and his Spawn.  We must assume he will die naturally, but we know he is not immortal because well you finished the game duh.)

Lavos simply is like any other animal except he can fly between planets, damn entire planets, manipulate dimensions, and is freakishly huge.

[USD1]

Well, where does it say that he can leave his pocket dimension? I thought that was a theory by and in itself.
If we used things like

And it's generally accepted that Lavos was only stronger in that battle to keep you from changing the story and beating him."

I could explain away the entire chrono series as a GAME and that would be the end of these forums.

But Lavos is destined to destroy Man, so Man has to strike first. As does Lavos have to destroy Man so they don't strike first

My example was of a Lavos that gave flowers to people. Why would anyone kill Lavos if all he did was sing happy songs and give you flowers and compliments? I think you misunderstood what I was rebutting.

[ChronoMagus]

Well, where does it say that he can leave his pocket dimension? I thought that was a theory by and in itself.

I thought Lavos developed his Pocket Dimension.  Lavos has shown total manipulation over this pocket dimension.   Like the capability of reincarnating all major bosses shows how he had to have manipulated time.  You can't abosorb Dragon Tank DNA, because there is no such thing.  So obviously Lavos must have a method to find it.  Frankly if he was locked up in there with no clue in the world what was going on how could he understand there are a couple of superpowerful monsters.  Plus he does turn into Nizbel and Tyrano w/ Azala.  How can he do that if he does not have some sort of dimensional manipulation.  They are already dead before he lands.  Lavos must have somehow seen these forms despite the fact he did nto exist at that moment of time.

Besides maybe Lavos is stronger somehow by the Mammon Machine.  We know it absorbed energy, but maybe Lavos reabsorbed the energy of Zeal as he was fighting in that battle.  By 1999 AD most magical energy besides Lavos is gone.  No more energy for Lavos to absorb so no freakishly powerful Lavos.

Edit: What people tend to forget is that magic still cannot defeat the Conservation of Energy.  Magic is simply a manipulation of energy in one of its most pure and refined forms. You cannot instantly create more and once it has been used, it takes time for it to reform into a condition where it can be used again.
Once Lavos used energy, most of it was transformed to an inusable state.  No more energy from the great Magic Kingdom of Zeal.

[GreenGannon]

What if the Zealians lost their magic, not by the destruction of the Ocean Palace, but rather by having the power literally drained out of them? I'm pretty sure it's implied that it happens to Magus to explain why he's weaker in your party.

[Magus22]

What if the Zealians lost their magic, not by the destruction of the Ocean Palace, but rather by having the power literally drained out of them? I'm pretty sure it's implied that it happens to Magus to explain why he's weaker in your party.

If what you say is true, then explain why Spekkio said how Magus could teach him a few things. Isn't Spekkio the Master of War? Hasn't he seen all battles from where he is? There couldn't have been a power drain from Magus.

[USD1]

I thought Lavos developed his Pocket Dimension.  Lavos has shown total manipulation over this pocket dimension.   Like the capability of reincarnating all major bosses shows how he had to have manipulated time.  You can't abosorb Dragon Tank DNA, because there is no such thing.  So obviously Lavos must have a method to find it.  Frankly if he was locked up in there with no clue in the world what was going on how could he understand there are a couple of superpowerful monsters.  Plus he does turn into Nizbel and Tyrano w/ Azala.  How can he do that if he does not have some sort of dimensional manipulation.  They are already dead before he lands.  Lavos must have somehow seen these forms despite the fact he did nto exist at that moment of time.

 It seemed to me like he read the heros minds. Before he changes forms he flashes back to that instant. I mean if he could change dimensions and time there would be a lot more to to worry about than a tiny dragon tank. When you fight him at the ocean palace he doesn't transform into multiple things. I still haven't really seen any example that proves Lavos can control time or dimensions in any way until 1999. Even then, the Lavos Core can WARP time, but that made sense in the way it had to figure a way out of the dimension, its not the same as time travel.

Besides maybe Lavos is stronger somehow by the Mammon Machine.  We know it absorbed energy, but maybe Lavos reabsorbed the energy of Zeal as he was fighting in that battle.  By 1999 AD most magical energy besides Lavos is gone.  No more energy for Lavos to absorb so no freakishly powerful Lavos.

I seriously doubt Lavos got stronger by the Mammon Machine. I mean, the Mammon Machine was still standing and working fine after that, AND it was still drawing energy from him or else the Black Omen would't stay powered.

Edit: What people tend to forget is that magic still cannot defeat the Conservation of Energy.  Magic is simply a manipulation of energy in one of its most pure and refined forms. You cannot instantly create more and once it has been used, it takes time for it to reform into a condition where it can be used again.
Once Lavos used energy, most of it was transformed to an inusable state.  No more energy from the great Magic Kingdom of Zeal.

I don't get it. You are applying physical laws to magic?

[GreenGannon]

What if the Zealians lost their magic, not by the destruction of the Ocean Palace, but rather by having the power literally drained out of them? I'm pretty sure it's implied that it happens to Magus to explain why he's weaker in your party.

If what you say is true, then explain why Spekkio said how Magus could teach him a few things. Isn't Spekkio the Master of War? Hasn't he seen all battles from where he is? There couldn't have been a power drain from Magus.

Well if he's seen all battles, then there's no way he could learn from Magus under any circumstances, so what's your point?

[Zaperking]

I like that Magus idea. Spekkio said that the Zealians miss-used their power and that was why they lost it. If Lavos reabsorbed back the energy from Zeal (maybe those beams did both destruction and energy recon) then that would explain it. Schala, Zeal, Magus, the Guru's and some other Zealians were in the Ocean Palace at the time and were un effected. Though those Zealians died, Schala, Magus and Zeal and the Guru's did not, and Dalton too, so hence this may explain why they still retained it, thats if they were never innate and just using Lavos magic like elements.

[Magus22]

Well if he's seen all battles, then there's no way he could learn from Magus under any circumstances, so what's your point?

You missed my point. If Spekkio IS the Master of War, yet he announced that Magus himself could "teach" him a few things. Can't Spekkio enable Dark Matter, Luminaire and Flare magic attacks in his final form? What I am saying is why he would say something like that. Is Magus really that powerful? Is there something inside him that hasn't been unlocked yet that holds incredible power? Let's try reflect on that for a couple posts. That's what I am trying to get at.

[ChronoMagus]

I seriously doubt Lavos got stronger by the Mammon Machine. I mean, the Mammon Machine was still standing and working fine after that, AND it was still drawing energy from him or else the Black Omen would't stay powered.

Lavos still could have reabsorbed the energy of Zeal, then Zeal reabsorb that energy again to power the Machine.  Lavos needed that energy for what... 10 seconds to damn the stupid humans?  The energy was then released back into the system with some of it wasted in summoning the attack, and the inefficency of the attack.  The Mammon Machine began to reabsorb this and it was also partially wasting it to enrich it to support the Black Omen.

I don't get it. You are applying physical laws to magic?

What is there not to get...? Magic still has to have a source...  You can't create energy in thin air.  Magic isnt the creation of energy.  Magic is simply the transformation of energy in a usable form.  Thus all the concepts of energy loss, and energy efficency still work.  As time passes energy is wasted to an unusable form.

You missed my point. If Spekkio IS the Master of War, yet he announced that Magus himself could "teach" him a few things. Can't Spekkio enable Dark Matter, Luminaire and Flare magic attacks in his final form? What I am saying is why he would say something like that. Is Magus really that powerful? Is there something inside him that hasn't been unlocked yet that holds incredible power? Let's try reflect on that for a couple posts. That's what I am trying to get at.

Simple.  Spekkio can't see battles that haven't occured yet.  While at the End of Time it seems all battles have been fought, only those in the existing timeline have been fought.  Spekkio is saying that once Magus starts to fight at his true potential, Spekkio can learn quite a bit from Magus' strength.  A mirror can not show something that is not infront of it.  A history book can not teach something that has not occured.  The same is with Spekkio.

[AuraTwilight]

Edit: What people tend to forget is that magic still cannot defeat the Conservation of Energy.  Magic is simply a manipulation of energy in one of its most pure and refined forms. You cannot instantly create more and once it has been used, it takes time for it to reform into a condition where it can be used again.
Once Lavos used energy, most of it was transformed to an inusable state.  No more energy from the great Magic Kingdom of Zeal.

Funny how you miss the point of magic like, y'know, breaking the physical laws of nature, and that's why it's magic. Right? Like, duh.

[Zaperking]

Though, Spekkio did say that magic is the foundation of the universe. So it is the natural law that everything is made up of those elements, and then they can be used to do magic, simply.