A challenge to the religious

[ChibiBob]

Even assuming that "God X" and "God X's Heaven" are real, why is morality assumed to be the arbiter of who gets in and who doesn't? I think Hadriel's comments thus far have been the most interesting, raising as they do the question of what exactly "morality" is

I'm sure everyone has their own idea. So that's my question to the audience: What is morality?

Like you said, everyone has a different opinion on what exactly morality is. There's no set definition for morality — it varies among people, among cultures, among life experiences. In my view, as a nonreligious teenage girl who has nevertheless been around the block a number of times, morality is the state of being true to one's own systems of beliefs and values. Most people associate their religious views with their morality, which is perfectly fine, assuming you're living up to the somewhat lofty standard you've placed on yourself. Others, like me, associate morality with personal views on any number of things — I, as just one of six billion, view having morality as treating others as equals without regard to gender, age, sexual preference, or what have you, and expecting in others the same kind of treatment — I guess I'm a firm believer in the Golden Rule, if nothing else.

But if morality is practicing what you preach, hypocricy would be its opposite; I have yet to meet a person who lives by the "Do as I say, not as I do" credo and expects the same treatment from others. The majority of American society (the only society I have any credability in speaking about) shares basic moral views on certain matters such as polygamy, although other matters such as homosexuality and the extent of church mingling with state affairs are pretty much up in the air, leading one to think that "common morals" aren't worth the oxygen it takes to voice them. Hell, even polygamy is argued over day in and day out by certain religious sects!

Morality is the most undefinable term in the English language bar none; this is only one person's views on the matter. I sure hope you're not looking for a single common thread in people's definitions — this debate has been and probably will last until the end of time if not beyond!

Miriam-Webster, version 1,234,720,384, has left the building.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Even assuming that "God X" and "God X's Heaven" are real, why is morality assumed to be the arbiter of who gets in and who doesn't? I think Hadriel's comments thus far have been the most interesting, raising as they do the question of what exactly "morality" is.

I'm sure everyone has their own idea. So that's my question to the audience: What is morality?

To get into "God X's Heaven", you have to obey "God X", and usually "God X's Religion" states you have to be good, which is defined by doing what "God X" wants you to do.

I'm not making sense, am I?

[Durakken]

^.^ My handling with any being of any sort...

Respect all who deserve respect, bow to noone, stand firm in your beliefs, don't run from other views, and never close your mind to new ideas even if they make your beliefs wrong.

And with that... I'm barred from almost all "heavens" as most gods say you must bow to me. Nice to know that according to most major religions i'm destined to wander the earth for all eternity regretting everything, but hey that's life

[Burning Zeppelin]

Most Gods say bow to no one but me. Mainly cause of the reasons, of, you know, creating you, letting you live, you know, petty stuff.
 

[Durakken]

That deserves respect, but not servitude...Durakken bows to noone as a servant. I'll bow in respect though.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Plus the fact that he said if you dont follow me you burn in hell...

[Durakken]

I figure burning in hell might be a bit more fun in the long run, but preferably i'd like purgatory. Either way I'll be with most of the guys that were respected and admired and are able to hold the best conversations throughout history so I think in that sense I'd win out in the end.

[Mystik3eb]

For it's context, this article is absolutely right.

But, as Hadriel, Josh and ChibiBob all very well stated, who's to say exactly what it takes to get into Heaven? Us? Hell no.

God? How do we know what God wants, unless God clearly appears to us and tells us what it takes? God wants us to believe what He's told a few people? Not good enough, not for me. Once I know what it takes from the horses mouth itself, I'll go for it. Humans are too imperfect and aggravating for me to take their word for it, and books are easily misinterpreted and re-written.

That's why I kinda got pissed at your comment, Legend. I'm not gonna burn in hell simply because I'm not willing to face the unknown blind as a bat, with nothing to guide me but misleading feelings, faith, and the imperfections of other humans. So yeah. God wants me to believe in Him, he's gotta give me a damned good reason to.



BTW, morality wouldn't such an issue if clear definition were given by God. But it's not. Books try to give us a definition. Books written by humans. Big whoop.

[Legend of the Past]

I'm certain God respects your feelings, Mystik. God gave us the freedom to choose. But just saying: 'Oh, yes, I can't see God and because of that he doesn't exist'. You can't see LOTS of things and they still exist. That's not a valid reason. If you have a good reason to not believe in him, God would understand and respect that.

I think that to go into Heaven you just gotta be the best person you can be. Really, God doesn't care that much who follows his religion. God has set the standard for being a good person, and if someone follows that for his entire life and shows regret for all the bad stuff he's done, there's no reason he shoulden't get into Heaven.

[Durakken]

Well you see... If you follow logic and science you can only come with 1 outcome that is very bleak. In the end it has been said that regaurdless of what you believe that it takes an extremely large leap of faith in the end and that is all that there is to the matter of existence.

[Legend of the Past]

Well you see... If you follow logic and science you can only come with 1 outcome that is very bleak. In the end it has been said that regaurdless of what you believe that it takes an extremely large leap of faith in the end and that is all that there is to the matter of existence.

Hmm... what? In the end it takes an extremely leap of faith. What leap of faith and for what purpose should it be taken?

[Durakken]

Study a bit of philosophy. Quite a few have come to this conclusion. The reason s fairly obvious, but I'm not going into it because it'll spark an arguement which is better left unsaid and that I've had multiple times.

[Daniel Krispin]

I can't answer any question in the poll, because it doesn't have anything to do with morality. Morality, as I see it, isn't a specifically religious thing. Rather, it's one of the Laws that God has put into the universe, and holds true throughout everything for everyone. Rather like, say, the laws of physics... but admittedly a bit different. Anyway, the point is that, just as the laws of physics exist for everyone, so do moral laws. This accounts for other religions and beliefs being just as moral as, say, Christianity is - and for a non-Christian being more moral than a Christian. Morality and relgion are seperate issues, and to connect them is like trying to make a Christian law of physics. Not exactly the best way to go about things.

Now, I'd written a bunch but, looking over it, it was so scattered and chaotic (I must not be writing well) that most anyone could have picked it apart no problem. So I'm not going to bother arguing this. I just feel like I picked my theology a long time ago, and I'm not going to change it - well, that and the fact that if I ever have doubts, I need only speak to my father, who can argue matters of theology clearer than anyone I've ever spoken to. He always seems to be able to logically answer things for me. It's kind of hard to be contrary when you've got a systematic theologian for a father, you know?

[Burning Zeppelin]

I believe that only those who know there is a God but defies him (Satan) and those that absolutely refuse to believe there is a God, and refuses to take in any proof that there is a God (um...) and those that "spit on God" and call themselves God (A certain Pharoh) will burn in Hell eternally.

[Mystik3eb]

Damn I'm getting tired of this, so I'm gonna say this once and for all.

It IS a good enough reason. It's such a flight of fancy to believe in anything outside of our realm of understanding. Because we have NO idea, just guesses. It is just as valid to believe I will be reincarnated as a platypus, and that there is no "God", as it is valid to believe in Nirvana or a second death or anything outside of what we know as a human race beyond this life and plane of existence.

Stop trying to flaunt your faith, albeit solid, in my face and tell me my reasoning isn't good enough. You have no idea how hard I strived to find my Father, and how he ignored me all those years I felt life wasn't worth living except for the promise of eternal glory on the other side. My parents both have incredible stories of the thinning of the veil and walking with God and feelings the feelings of Christ, stories that would make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end, stories of what happened to them when they converted and asked God for the truth. And my parents are good, very honest people. And that's after a few months of hard choices, very hard choices. After 19 years of hard choices, and pain-wracked moments of suffering of guilt and begging of forgiveness from Father when I fucked up, I have NOTHING to show for it, except bitterness, blindness, and unhappiness.

My reasoning is damn good enough, and obviously I feel very strongly about it. The scriptures say that only an adulterous person wishes to see true signs. I am not an adulterous person, believe it or not, and I've wanted signs my whole life, though for 19 years of it I was willing to go off faith, and that "fuzzy feeling" I felt when I was doing the right thing (rarely, and not always in those situations at that, which helped spur on my initial doubts). On the brink of one of the most important parts of a male Mormon's life, I finally bursted with fury and realized I didn't know shit, and I wouldn't be satisfied living a life that was possibly the only life I'd ever had, not until I had very solid evidence that I was in the right place doing the right thing.

If the second coming happens, and God shows up, and I'm still alive for it, and I'm facing God at that critical hour, I'm gonna be pissed, as Josh said once a while ago were he in that situation. How could He do that to us, to people not willing to blindly follow something as easily believable as a million different stories and faiths out there?



I hope I've stated my case plainly and clearly. Feel free to ask questions about my current beliefs, past experiences, reasonings, whatever. But please don't antagonize me anymore. It's not like I don't get enough of it from my (heart-broken) parents.